The true secret of playing what you hear.

[DaveWoods]

When you speak to others, the process is the same as successfully playing what you hear. First of all there's no thought as to what your mouth has to do to form the words. also, it's your emotions that choose the words and the way you say them. "F" You !!! explodingout of your mouth with your upper teeth digging into your lower lip, is anger in the moment. F...you?..gee... I thought you'd never get around to asking me! is surprised pleasure, born from an entirely different feeling in the moment. Here is an example of through feeling and intent, making the same lick mean many different things in many situations. People will want to hear it again. Another aspect is before you open your mouth, thinking " I'm going to throw in my adverbs and past participial's this time. That'll wow em!! I guarantee you you will sound stilted and full of shit. All prearranged musical grammar devices chosen by ego, are the kiss of death for in the moment spontaneous natural expression, speaking or playing. Thinking about fingering to the degree that you do it, weakens your grasp of what you're hearing, and it's emotional intent. Imagine hearing and feeling what you want to say, and being in doubt of your mouths capability to form the words. I guarantee you the message won't get over. I could go on, but my point is this is where you go within your self to understand a process that you function with every day.

[zigzag]

I think I get what you're saying. I don't play jazz at nearly the level that many here do. But related to your post, I often frame my words and look for the correct words as I am speaking, and this mental process does not affect the fluidity of my speech. I am reminded of a quote from Joe Theismann on doing sports commentary. When he was asked how he got so good at doing it, he replied that he just keeps talking until he thinks of something to say. I think it is a rare gift that someone can tap into that place that allows them to translate an emotional impulse into a unique and aesthetically pleasing phrase on a guitar, someone who can spontaneously turn prose into poetry.

[jasaco]

...he just keeps talking until he thinks of something to say.

In musical terms, if someone were to "just keep playing until they think of something to say (musically)", I think it would be the sure sign of a beginner. (In fact, I resemble that remark! )

[docbop]

In musical terms, if someone were to "just keep playing until they think of something to say (musically)", I think it would be the sure sign of a beginner. (In fact, I resemble that remark! )

I remember back in my hard core clone Larry Carlton days I know he playing well enough that I could recognize his cruise control licks he'd when coming up with a new idea. Then there's Miles who'd just stop playing then drop in with the perfect note.

[jasaco]

Well, I sure didn't mean to imply that Larry Carlton was a beginner! But I think you get my point...

[docbop]

Well, I sure didn't mean to imply that Larry Carlton was a beginner! But I think you get my point...

Just saying I think all player have their cruise control lines they uses when pausing between thoughts.

[MarkRhodes]

[QUOTE=DaveWoods;510238]When you speak to others, the process is the same as successfully playing what you hear. QUOTE]

I don't think so. For one thing, I don't always hear what I say in my head before I say it. (Which is why occasionally as soon as I hear something aloud I realize it makes no sense or else is obviously wrong.) For another, pitch is not an issue with "pre-hearing" your thoughts but pitch is crucial to musical ideas. Much interpersonal communication is non-verbal. And as has been demonstrated in the YouTube video called "The Lick", a simple musical phrase can fit almost any musical context.

[destinytot]

When you speak to others, the process is the same as successfully playing what you hear.

I agree. This is the pragmatics of language. It's about intention.

[GuyBoden]

I'm making a conscious effort to stop playing my old licks/language in improv, I'm thriving to hear new lines and I'm enjoying failing.

[smokinguit]

Once you've mastered your instrument and the music you don't think anymore. You react... aka improvise.

[GuyBoden]

Once you've mastered your instrument and the music you don't think anymore. You react... aka improvise.

Do you find that not thinking results in playing the same old cliche lines? this seems to be my problem.

[henryrobinett]

Yes I think it's pretty much the same thing. When I'm talking I'm not thinking about the words, their definition or my inflection. I'm not really thinking of anything. I'm talking. Ideas. I'm looking at the person and reacting. I've got pictures and emotions and concepts - I'm communicating. Same thing with music. As long as my attention is in the mechanics it's going to sound like that. Flow. Natural. Like breathing.

[docbop]

I think people are thinking more than they realize in conversation or improvisation. In sightreading the great sightreaders all talk about reading ahead anywhere from a couple bars to like HR a line at a time. They all seem to say it's about controlling being totally focused. That when your total focus is on something it's like you're slowing down time. I think that extends to improv that when totally in the moment players are thinking target tones, line shape, while listening to band for things to play off of. That's thinking in the while improv to me.

Also when in many conversations people discussing something they do have a mental sub-process planing points to make, key words to use, and adjusting to interruptions and other outside things.

So I think people have more going on than they realized and its just so natural they don't notice it. The more they can control their focus the more they use that to analyze all going on in the moment.

[wolflen]

ok .. its Bb to Db to Gb To B To Bb...lets begin in D mel min..hmm..use some minor 3rd licks .. the nice D to Db works (b5 lick) then..a Db7 run into the Gb hmmm lets go altered here..augmented runs into B let imply F7( again b5 stuff) in B back into the Bb..now Ab mi7 .. etc

do the above..but don't think about it..too much

you have to know "the road" it doesn't come for some mystical place and you just zone into it..you know what your doing..now..taking risks/experiment on the fly..ahhh now we're talking..along the way of playing a C diminished scale do a Dmi7b5 arp..the notes are in the Dim scale..so ill try that .. hmm..that works now lets do a symmetric run (mi 3rds) into Db..what next..lets cycle that run through a circle of 5ths while i think about it ..Db Ab Eb Bb..ok lets try an augmented scale into Gb .. that worked hmm..a melodic fragment from the song "windmills of your mind" into the B..and a triton scale back to Bb..

It happens without the internal dialog..its years of practice hearing three..four..five note clusters..scale fragments..melodic passages..riffs..things you have played thousands of times..that you KNOW work..that even if you take risks..and they don't work you can recover with out " im sorry folks..i made a mistake..im going to play that last 4 bars over.."

the ultimate goal..play anything anywhere anytime..it may only happen in short bursts in the beginning..but after you jump out of the plane a few hundred times-and you have developed a extra "chute" it becomes natural..to throw a tri-tone scale between two riffs you have played for years..

[henryrobinett]

Well I can't speak for others. But when I improvise on a song I know, or talk on a subject I know, I'm not THINKING about it. I'm not thinking target tones, I'm not THINKING chords. I SEE them. I might be humming or not. If I'm talking to my wife who just came home from work, I'm not THINKING about constructing sentences. I might be trying to remember the new assistants name or where her last trip was, but otherwise I'm just talking and asking questions or telling her about my day. Never once do I think, "Ok, new paragraph. What's the subjunctive clause?" I might search for a word, which drops me down into thinking.

When I'm playing a song I know I'm just reacting. Rarely do I think - "Bridge goes to Eb." I see it and I hear it. I think, as I've pointed out before, there's a distinction between how I'm using the term thinking and how some others may be. I see a world of difference between THINKING and LOOKING. For me thinking indicates figuring something out. When I have to determine how much tip to leave I think about it. When I have to calculate how much I owe in taxes I have to think about it. When I drive I don't have to think. When I walk or eat I don't think, unless I'm trying to decide what to eat, especially on a diet. When I'm playing Rhythm Changes or Autumn Leaves I don't have to think about playing. I KNOW those changes. I SEE the fretboard and I react to the music. AND I'm focused.

For those great readers it's a similar thing, although I'm not a great reader. I'm an OK reader. They do read ahead, and are focused, but they're not counting and they're not call out the notes. They're not thinking about the notes. Any more than a good reader of books has to recite the alphabet or pronounce most words out loud, or have a dictionary for every third word, although I do have a dictionary close by and look up and words I don't know!

[Groyniad]

jazz is a language - and to speak, unless we're giving a prepared speech or acting etc., is to improvise. and it has to be a much more fundamental form of improvising than playing an instrument - and perhaps more complex too.

the point i want to make is this - this analogy, between jazz improvisation and ordinary speech, solves the age-old problem of understanding originality in improvisation:

none of us could speak at all if we had to make up the language at the same time as making up what we want to say. none of us create the language - that's in the culture, the history, the community; but we all use the language we did'nt create when we talk..

and of course there are the shakespeares who could almost be said to have - to some significant degree - created the very language they use to communicate.

great stuff

(if you want to learn to speak better - listen to lots and lots of shakespeare. or if you must go for second best, milton, or john donne etc. etc.)

[GuyBoden]

(if you want to learn to speak better - listen to lots and lots of shakespeare. or if you must go for second best, milton, or john donne etc. etc.)

I don't think speaking Elizabethan English from the 1600's would be decipherable by most folks, but maybe in Scotland.

[Jonzo]

I was going to say something about this, but then I thought better of it.

[DaveWoods]

You're hearing what you say AS you say it, not before you say it. To me hearing a melody in my head as I sing or play it, feels like the same process, and you understand the feelings it has to convey. in fact it's the music and word rhythm in your speech that makes people listen to you.

[docbop]

You're hearing what you say AS you say it, not before you say it. To me hearing a melody in my head as I sing or play it, feels like the same process, and you understand the feelings it has to convey. in fact it's the music and word rhythm in your speech that makes people listen to you.

That's why many public speakers listen to Frank Sinatra to learn to get his phrasing into how they speak.

[gggomez]

I think Miles referenced Orsen Welles (and Sinatra) as an influence.

[fumblefingers]

i believe that there is a difference between "thinking" and "pondering".

the brain is very fast. to say that you are not thinking is false, i believe. it's just that you may not be very aware that your are engaged in the process of thinking.

if you can't think, then your brain is simply not functioning. if your brain is not functioning, then you will fall to the floor in a heap and slobber uncontrollably. i believe they call it, "death".

remember the phrase "think fast!"? well, thinking is fast.

[destinytot]

Thinking occurs not only in the conscious mind but also in the unconscious, as schema.

[tyjbeck]

I think that there is a third ear, like the third eye, that everyone has. Here is where the energy that is music in our realm, is channeled from the universe and then to your instrument. Just a thought.

Ty

[Bikewer]

Check the post I just made about "Your Brain On Improv". Relevant.