The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26
    big bang Guest
    if you have to think about the modes! ,over D-7 think G mixo or think G9 arpeggio instead of thinking D Dorian.i always do that its fun!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by big bang
    if you have to think about the modes! ,over D-7 think G mixo or think G9 arpeggio instead of thinking D Dorian.i always do that its fun!
    see, there it is again! G mixolydian over a D-7?!?

    i guess i just think differently, and i'll stop whining about the modes thing.

  4. #28

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    Great topic! It's refreshing to find a spot where folks who can play discuss this type of thing.

    I find benefits in both ways of thinking. And I kind of have a third approach...

    Sometimes when changes are flying by, going with the Tonal Center method (C for Dm-G7-C) can be easier than treating each chord seperately. It also allows me to "let go" a little more and just play intuitively, rather than getting bogged down trying to navigate rapid changes. The downside is I'm not as able to really nail the changes.

    If I'm thinking of each chord seperately, not only am I more likely to actually play the changes, but I'm also more likely to step outside the diatonic arena and add in other passing tones or alterations. If I'm just thinking C, that's probably not going to happen. Put another way, adding an Ab to a G7 chord is easier when I'm actually thinking about the G7 chord and not it's parent scale, C major.

    The third approach would be to play the totally "wrong" scale or arpeggio, subbing I guess. Stuff like playing F Melodic Minor over E7 to get those cool altered tones or using Dm over a G7 to get a G9 sound.

    Ultimately, I guess I'd like to be able to do all 3 without having to "think" too much. I guess that means I have some work to do!

    Just for the record, I gotta say I LOVE vanilla. Many of the melodies for my favorite tunes are almost, if not completely diatonic. Even when changing tonal centers, the melody is usually pretty inside. That said, I do find my taste leans more towards the spicy as I progress....so maybe I'm just not "there" yet. Too much dissonance really turns me off, though.

    Josh

  5. #29

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    A mode is a mood. E phry is a mood. It ain't the mood of C maj. Same field, different ball game. Now the point is this for me, can you, just by playing the notes of E phrygian, make it sound like E phrygian as you improvise? That is what is tough for many when getting into it. They slip back into C. Arps and chord tones are blocks within the modes. I find it funny mr B that you think G mix over d dorian is wierd but subbing an E min7 arp over c to make cmaj 9 is cool. Also, i'm with Josh, "vanilla" can be spicy in a context where chromaticism is king. Check out "tangerine" on jim Halls' 'jazz guitar'. It's rhythmic, quirky, swingin, and pretty vanilla IMHO. There are countless examples of this. Use the tools, create with them, think in your own way with them, but don't blame them.

    Mike

  6. #30
    Chordon Bleu Guest
    I dont think it matters where you draw the tones from.
    eg. I might play from the A major scale over in any chord the key of G, probably doesnt make sense when its thought about, but thats the challange in improves over harmony...to make some sense out of it.

    That would make something like a EmixoDlydiFaeolCphrygAblocorian ! Now thats a lot of moods to choose from! Modally speaking that is.
    ps watch out for those pesky avoid notes or get spacey, bend into tune and repeat them so theyll sound more purposeful.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    see, there it is again! G mixolydian over a D-7?!?

    i guess i just think differently, and i'll stop whining about the modes thing.
    No I agree. They're very different and affect the tune differently. I would never play a melody with a dominant function over a predominant.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    A mode is a mood. E phry is a mood. It ain't the mood of C maj. Same field, different ball game. Now the point is this for me, can you, just by playing the notes of E phrygian, make it sound like E phrygian as you improvise? That is what is tough for many when getting into it. They slip back into C. Arps and chord tones are blocks within the modes. I find it funny mr B that you think G mix over d dorian is wierd but subbing an E min7 arp over c to make cmaj 9 is cool. Also, i'm with Josh, "vanilla" can be spicy in a context where chromaticism is king. Check out "tangerine" on jim Halls' 'jazz guitar'. It's rhythmic, quirky, swingin, and pretty vanilla IMHO. There are countless examples of this. Use the tools, create with them, think in your own way with them, but don't blame them.

    Mike
    well, again (even though i said i'd shut up, but i'm not good at that) all i'm saying is that there's nothing inherently interesting or clever about a G mixo over a D-7. a good player can make anything sound good, i just think it's overthinking it...

    as for a mode is a mood, i agree totally--one only has to listen to "flamenco sketches" to understand that...what i'm saying is, in a ii V I, yo're getting two beats most likely on that D-7. at any tempo over pretty much the slowest of a slow ballad, good luck setting a mood over that chord...and in this sense, like ravitas said, i'm not sure i like the idea of stretching the change that much...the V I is a nice resolution, but it's set up by that predominant...

    in the end, it doesn't matter, it's all just different roadmaps to the same destination...i just knew our friend big bang is starting out and i don't want to see him get hung up on this stuff. i really think the ideas behind using odes correctly are more advanced, and i've seen many a beginner student come to me all screwed up from a previous teacher that has them overthinking a lot of simple, common movements...
    Last edited by mr. beaumont; 01-18-2008 at 12:08 AM.

  9. #33
    Chordon Bleu Guest
    Maybe it means that "G" mixolydian contains the same tones as the dorion, its all C major. Previously the modes were only in the key of C.

    So it was understood that Dorion was defgabcd and Mixolydian was gabcdefg- all the same notes just a different order. They didnt use harmony like we do today and they only had one key-C.

    Speaking of G mixolydian today means what exactly?

    The mixolydian mode of the key of G? which would begin on the tone d and develop def#abcd??

    It may be better to speak of groups or cells of tones. This is best suited to use the scalar terms--C major, when speaking of other modes at least we should state the key, like

    the 5th mode of G major or the 2nd mode of e major.

    Maybe the problem here is in the "nomenclature".

  10. #34

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    Sometimes in discussing these things, the wood gets lost in the trees. Things get confused. Why 2 beats on dm? II V I's come in many packets. Your point that using just the modes for each chord is Vanilla is valid when someone uses only those notes exclusively. I get that. But i am certainly not advocating that. Use everything you would use normally, chord tones, arps, cells, chromatics, intervals etc. But don't apply overthinking to a concept that is as good a way as any to understand that each chord has a different sound. When a student gets it, it really is an eye opener. They can see the surrounding notes of the arps. So the arps are seen as embedded within the scale. The 'overthinking' is in the eye of the beholder.
    As i have said using Emin7 over cmaj could be construed as overthinking, but for you it's obvious. I feel all of these concepts are valid. I just think it's too dismissive to use terms like 'vanilla' and 'overthinking' to concepts that are not to our particular tastes. Sorry to labour this Mr B but it is a very interesting discussion. Have ya heard 'Jazz guitar' by Jim Hall? The cheekiest phrasing. lovely.

  11. #35
    big bang Guest
    oh! i mean the C major scale starting from G( rootG= 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7)
    Last edited by big bang; 01-19-2008 at 03:02 AM. Reason: muah

  12. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Sometimes in discussing these things, the wood gets lost in the trees. Things get confused. Why 2 beats on dm? II V I's come in many packets. Your point that using just the modes for each chord is Vanilla is valid when someone uses only those notes exclusively. I get that. But i am certainly not advocating that. Use everything you would use normally, chord tones, arps, cells, chromatics, intervals etc. But don't apply overthinking to a concept that is as good a way as any to understand that each chord has a different sound. When a student gets it, it really is an eye opener. They can see the surrounding notes of the arps. So the arps are seen as embedded within the scale. The 'overthinking' is in the eye of the beholder.
    As i have said using Emin7 over cmaj could be construed as overthinking, but for you it's obvious. I feel all of these concepts are valid. I just think it's too dismissive to use terms like 'vanilla' and 'overthinking' to concepts that are not to our particular tastes. Sorry to labour this Mr B but it is a very interesting discussion. Have ya heard 'Jazz guitar' by Jim Hall? The cheekiest phrasing. lovely.
    no, i don't think you're belaboring it, it is a good discussion...

    any kind of inside approach can be brilliant or vanilla. again, my complaints on the modes really come back to beginners...i've got high schoolers coming to me thinking they've hit on some magic formula, telling me, check out this mixolydian lick over the G7, and it is bland and vanilla because they're so hung up on what they think is clever harmonic content that they ignore the side stepping, the chromatics, and the inflection that make a line interesting. it's usually then that i burn them a copy of "jazz guitar." (actually now, they got the "complete jazz guitar sessions" out and it's worth it--lots of extra tracks)

    i'll agree too that terms like vanilla are opinion...but i hope this sheds a little more light on where i'm coming from with "overthinking."

    ideally, whatever the roadmap, i'm essentially seeing a pool of notes available to me every time the chord changes...i got there by learning arpeggios, which is the method i like because it really teaches note function, and with a few well placed color tones chromatic passing tones, the overall effect canbe very pleasing and rather simple. again, IMHO.

    the music i play is more bop oriented, and i play a lot of standards...so the 2 beats thing was an example...but at the same time, the changes in the music i play are moving by much too quickly to really discern what method a players really taking...it's all about that pool of notes again.

    when i teach modes (and i do, i do think they have use, especially in a lot more modern jazz)i always make sure the student knows what the characteristics are and what specific notes are altered from a regular major or minor scale...again, with the changes flying by, it seems to me that knowing to raise the fourth to get that lydian sound is just as effective, and keeping the student in the arp. frame of mind helps them sound a lot more musical and less like they are running scales, in my opinion.

  13. #37

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    Seems to me we are saying the same thing from different angles.
    I play bop, rock and more contemporary jazz. I agree with your general assessment of students getting hung up on 'cool licks' but again a good teacher can dispel confusion and myth with a few carefully explained insights and examples. Arps Modes chromatics intervals etc should be thoroughly investigated to cultivate the freedom to sing one's own song. And to that endeavour, they should walk hand in hand.
    I am in bed with flu. I have a gig tonight with a great drummer from new york called Jeff williams. What music will give me the strength to get to that gig? Also, What time is it where you are? It's about 13 45 afternoon here in england. Just surprised by your quick reply.

  14. #38

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    Jumping back into the discussion fellas. I think "vanilla" is a legit term, and gets used to refer to the written changes in the Real Book frequently by other players.

    To me it suggests very diatonic, or stripped down, as in a voicing. There is nothing wrong with playing very diatonic. However, I personally don't consider playing C major over ii V I in C jazz. To me jazz is about alterations, and improvisation.

    Most of these tunes we play started out just like today's pop songs, only harmonically richer. When played straight, to me it is really old pop music, not jazz.

    Having said that, I think a study of using that C major scale over ii V I in C working on phrasing, side slipping, hammer ons, chromatics, etc, will reinforce the usefulness of this scale, and challenge the student to work toward making vanilla sound interesting like Master Hall does.

    Frankly, I should spend more time in vanilla land. "The way to learn how to play outside, is to learn how to play inside really well." Jimmy Bruno

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by mike walker
    Seems to me we are saying the same thing from different angles.
    I play bop, rock and more contemporary jazz. I agree with your general assessment of students getting hung up on 'cool licks' but again a good teacher can dispel confusion and myth with a few carefully explained insights and examples. Arps Modes chromatics intervals etc should be thoroughly investigated to cultivate the freedom to sing one's own song. And to that endeavour, they should walk hand in hand.
    I am in bed with flu. I have a gig tonight with a great drummer from new york called Jeff williams. What music will give me the strength to get to that gig? Also, What time is it where you are? It's about 13 45 afternoon here in england. Just surprised by your quick reply.
    playing sick sucks...almost as bad as teaching while sick.

    i'll suggest anything with art blakey...free for all? hank mobley's "roll call?" those usually fire me up a bit.

    as far as the timing of my replies, i'm also a high school teacher, so i was at school bright and early this morning for a field trip that got cancelled due to a last minute bus debacle...so i had some time on my hands...otherwise, i kill many a lunch hour on this site, probably when you're having dinner...

  16. #40

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    We'll have to agree to disagree Derek. 'vanilla' for me is just boring playing. lack of invention. It has nothing to do whatsoever with the tools you use. Miles' solo on 'So what' has the essence of jazz in it but it's pretty much diatonic. Jim hall, pat metheny, mick goodrick, john abercrombie, etc etc, have all used diatonicism to great effect. modes are a starting point. Add spice by all means. But in the land of alterations and chromaticism Vanilla becomes the spice. Great discussion guys!!

  17. #41

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    I am sorry if it is a stupid question bu what is " vanilla"...


  18. #42

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    White, cracka. :P

  19. #43
    Chordon Bleu Guest
    I had to do some research as I didnt understand this term, Websters indicated The word "vanilla"
    "New Latin, from Spanish vainilla vanilla (plant and fruit), diminutive of vaina sheath, from Latin vagina sheath, vagina"
    Interesting, when speaking of it as a Jazz term ,the most basic form with which to allow the music to grow out of??

    Today it has come to mean, lacking distinction, lacking special features or qualities, plain, basic, conventional,
    vanillally speaking anyways

  20. #44

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    Word, homeslice.

    I've actually never heard the term used in application to music before- my bandleader generally just says "white" and looks menacing. I'm definitely stealing that, though, it's a good euphemism.

  21. #45

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    After having practised the scales, chords, arpeggios, learned the head in several different fingerings, I try to do like Charlie Parker advised; "First learn your instrument, then learn the music, then forget all that and just play."
    The whole purpose (in my opinion) of learning scales, chords etc is so we don't need them.
    As an aside, I find a lot of players devote a disproportionate amount of time to learning the tools to solo over a given set of changes, but don't learn the comp.
    If you can comp the song really well you already have the tools for the solo under your fingers; the chords.
    Joe Pass says he always plays from a chord form and that's good enough for me.

  22. #46

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chrizzia
    I am sorry if it is a stupid question bu what is " vanilla"...

    In my experience, the term vanilla chords describes the chord changes that merely define the tonal centres without substitutions or extensions. They are the changes that you think of when improvising or analysing a tune. Often, the real book changes can obscure the basic movement of tonal centers with subs and modal shifts and lead to some bizarre interpretations of the progression that create confusion during jam sessions. Vanilla chords don't really impy something negative, they only represent the skeletal harmony.
    Last edited by Jazzaluk; 02-14-2008 at 07:51 PM.