soloing over modulating chords?

[intheory]

hello fellow jazzheads,

i realize this is a very open-ended question, but how does everyone here approach soloing over a vamp with modulating chords (i.e. Am7 - F#m7)?

when the F#m7 is approaching, do you visualize the fretboard shift from, say A dorian to F# dorian, do you anticipate the next few notes ahead, do you devise licks that go over the barline, etc.?

i'm still very new to jazz and have only begun to wrap my head around modal and chord/scale theory over the past year. i'm working as diligently as i can to become more competent at improvising over jazz standards.. not sure if the more modern exponents of "jazz fusion" are looked down upon here, but i'd like to eventually apply these concepts in a more greg howe/guthrie govan musical context.

very glad to be here. appreciate your insights!

kindly,
peter

[pushkar000]

Basic concept is that over Am7, A, C, E and G are going to sound good. Then F#-7, F#, A, C#, E are going to sound good. These are obviously the chord tones of the chords.

Around these 4 "good" notes there are 8 other notes ranging from "even better" to "terrible" depending on taste and usage. So the first, most general and most obvious thing is to play what you like over the chords. There are no wrong notes, only notes played wrong.

Having said that, the way to modulate efficiently is to ensure you hit the chord tones on the change. After the change, adjust your thinking to the tonality of the new chord. So if D(11th degree) was "nice" for you on A-7, you should change it to "less/more nice"(depending on taste) as you move to F#-7(D becomes b13th).

Adjusting your thinking note-by-note seems kind of unrealistic. A neat way to do it is to think in scales. An "appropriate" scale over any chord must have the chord tones of that chord...and a bunch of other notes. You could use any of the bazillion minor scales over those two chords and see what sounds good for you. Think about how your selected scale might affect the change as well. For example dorian/melodic minor on A already has three chord tones of F# in it, allowing for easy modulation. Another way might be to play A minor on A-7 then A major on F#-7.

The best way to learn what you like is to hear the players you like and emulate what they do, and try to understand it in whatever way you can. This boils down to learning some Guthrie and Greg licks and trying to see what the heck is going on - what scale is the lick in, what chord is he playing it over etc. etc.

[pingu]

light my fire changes

listen to jose feliciano maybe

[intheory]

pushkar, seriously appreciate the detailed reply! transcription seems to be the no. 1 way to expand one's jazz vocabulary.. definitely need to make a more conscious effort to do so.

regarding your advice for adjusting your thinking in order to modulate efficiently, is the eventual result going to be the ability to "hold" the progression in my head for a more deliberate, vs. reactive approach? i am trying to build some sort of framework for jazz improvisation.. especially over modulating progressions.

definitely like the sound of dorian, for now, since it emphasizes that major 6th.. going to experiment with your approach as well. my ear has been conditioned to relate chords back to the key center, so soloing over modulating progressions is super weird for me since the chords aren't necessarily tonicized. i'm making small headway with the chord/scale approach.

thanks again pushkar!

pingu: absolutely love affirmation. any particular recommendations?

[Reg]

The basic trick to playing through, or how ever you choose with Modulating, or just complex changes in general is to be able to harmonically set up what's coming.

Obviously you need to be able to see ahead and understand what's going on harmonically.
A- to F#- has many choices... but very generally if you approach the F#- from A- with some type of... V7alt or a II- V7 or G13#11... basically any chord pattern or approach chord which sets up the F#-.

Being that your chordal movement is down a Min 3rd... there are very established harmonic common practice choices.

So A-7... Db7alt / F#-7...
A-7.... G#-7b5 C#7#9 / F#-7

There are a million choices, it really just depends on how well you can imply changes, not just spell chords. Just playing chord tones... is like playing with training wheels, eventually you dump the training wheels.

[pushkar000]

Just playing chord tones... is like playing with training wheels, eventually you dump the training wheels.

However it is important to dump the training wheels only after you have well and truly mastered them.

[Jonah]

But is it really a modulation?
Because you name only two chords... modulation wherefrom whereto?

You can modulate from key to key, from mode to mode... not from chord to chord...

[Reg]

I believe modulation within a jazz context modulation also has implied implications, possibilities. It doesn't always need to be notated or spelled out.

Obviously one could use one tonal reference for A- to F#-, but one could also have a few different tonal references.

That's generally why I was trying to give OP the concept of being able to imply, through one's playing what the tonal implications are...or could be.

Each chord can imply a key.

Hey pushkarooo... yea basic musicianship is required to try and play jazz. And yea... guitarist generally don't even start with training wheels. Most of my comments are with an end result as the goal.

[intheory]

reg, thanks for the reply! i'm just treating the Am7 and F#m7 as i chords for now, keeping things pretty basic. i'm trying to get comfortable with being able to mentally see/anticipate the scales shift on the fretboard for now, and the idea is that they will eventually inform my ear. does that sound like an ok starting point?

jonah, i apologize in advance if i'm using the terms incorrectly, but to add to what reg has said, the tonal implications are pretty open-ended because of how Am7 to F#m7, for example, can be contextualized with respect to the scale chosen (each of them could be treated as a i, a iii, a iv, etc., just within the minor mode). so it stands to reason that they could be tonicized with the appropriate scale. that was the open-endedness i vaguely alluded to in my op.

kindly,
peter

[Reg]

You can refer to your approach as Tonal Targets. Jazz performance generally has a few of these tonal target organizations going on simultaneously. Part of this style of playing... the application involves being able to have musical connections between the targets. Can be as simple as Relative maj and min relationships, but more often involves Modal Interchange relationships and even more layers of references for possible organizations.

[intheory]

thanks reg! anywhere where i can read more about that?

kindly,
peter

[Flyin' Brian]

light my fire changes

listen to jose feliciano maybe

Or Johnny Smith's version where he implies Am7 to AM7.

[Jonah]

I believe modulation within a jazz context modulation also has implied implications, possibilities. It doesn't always need to be notated or spelled out.

Obviously one could use one tonal reference for A- to F#-, but one could also have a few different tonal references.

That's generally why I was trying to give OP the concept of being able to imply, through one's playing what the tonal implications are...or could be.

Each chord can imply a key.

Chord can imply the key,chord can imply the mode and then key modulates to the key and mode to the mode ...
not chord to the chord
I am not catching to the terms, just exmplain what I meant...

jonah, i apologize in advance if i'm using the terms incorrectly, but to add to what reg has said, the tonal implications are pretty open-ended because of how Am7 to F#m7, for example, is contextualized with respect to the scale chosen (each of them could be treated as a I, a III, or or a IV). so it stands to reason that they could be tonicized with the appropriate scale. that was the open-endedness i vaguely alluded to in my op.

No problem... I am probably out of regular conversational context so I do not take these things for granted.. my problem.

[intheory]

not at all my friend. if anything i thought i was in the wrong.

kindly,
peter

[Reg]

[QUOTE=Jonah;497658]Chord can imply the key,chord can imply the mode and then key modulates to the key and mode to the mode ...
not chord to the chord
I am not catching to the terms, just exmplain what I meant...


Hey Jonah... I'll try.

Chord can imply the key...
A-7 can be diatonic to a few keys.
But If I choose for the chord to be the II-7 chord of Gmaj. The chord would imply the key of Gmaj. I could imply this by creating chordal movement which would imply the A-7 being the II-7 chord of Gmaj.

Or I choose to have the A-7 be the I-7 chord of key of Amin. Amin Dorian. Again I would create chordal movement which implies A-7 to be the Key and the I-7 chord, And if I want to also make that I-7 Dorian, I would again make the chordal movement imply Dorian as compared to Aeolian

So the chord implies the Key and also imply the Mode... and then modulates to new Key and New Mode.

It doesn't need to be notated out for chords and modes to exist... I'm sure you can hear short melodic phrase... and instantly know where or what piece of music it's from. You also instantly know what is implied even though it may not be completely notated out or even performed. You don't need all the details to understand, you've hear it before and understand what's implied.

[Jonah]

Hey Reg,

thanks... I know that.

I thought that the problem of the OP was either harmonic modulation from the key of A minor to the key of F#minor or 'what to play over to consequent chords of Am7 and F#7...

That is what I thought, and that is why I asked to specify.
Just that simple...

[Reg]

Hey Peter... If your looking for info about Tonal Targets... I'm not sure if there is formal info. But you probable understand target... target note(s).... target chord(s). Right, so you also probable understand Tonal.... or tonality

So basically the term implies reference to one Key... one note or tonic... one tonal center.

So the term Tonal Targets with respect to soloing...would simple be creating an organized approach using specified Target Tonal centers or keys.

In a I VI II V... you could call the changes all one Tonal target... the I chord, or

You could call each chord a Tonal Target... each chord could become a I chord.

Example... Gma7 E-7 A-7 D7 ... I VI II V

So Gma7 is the 1st tonal target, that becomes the reference for you solo, what you create relationship with etc...

E-7 becomes the next Tonal Target... your soloing now changes what your using for a reference, from Gma7 to the new Tonal Target of E-7, that becomes the I chord, even if you keep E-7 as aeolian, same notes, there are now different relationship, different approaches that relate and start from E-7,

A-7 now becomes the 3rd tonal target and D7 becomes the 4th tonal target.

It's generally not the first layer of relationships while your soloing than can be different... but as you create relationships and then develop them, many more options become possible.

It's not earth shattering but is somewhat typical improv approach, somewhat like using Modal Interchange

[dingusmingus]

Hey intheory,
I am much less developed than many of the players on here, so this may less helpful (or perhaps more?), but my first step with that would be running the arpeggios of those two chords in basically one position, back and forth between the chords. That would help be see visually what's the same, different, close by, etc, when you move from one chord to another. I just played around with that in basically 5th and 6th position, just now, but it's worth working out several places on the neck.

Guys like Reg and many others have that stuff so internalized it's not an issue, but I'd need to practice that specifically if I were playing a tune with this progression.

[intheory]

hey jonah, in hindsight, and in no small part to the fantastic replies i've received in this thread, my question does seem to have an obvious answer.. that answer being that i have to familiarize myself with the tonality of the progression first, and let my ear take over from there. zoomed out far enough, the general approach seems to be the same as soloing over any diatonic progression.

reg, that approach sounds a lot like the chord/scale approach, which i am beginning to warm up to much more (i.e. even though we're in A minor, over a Dm9 i should be thinking "D Dorian" and not "A minor"). i like the idea of the key telling me what i'm "allowed" to play, and the chord telling me what i "should" be playing. am i on the same page as you?

dingus, appreciate the advice! i'll definitely play around with the m7 arpeggios over those chords when i get home from work. learning your arpeggios would seem like first principles but it's something so many non-jazz players neglect.. including myself. if you wouldn't mind posting a recording of what you're drilling, i'd love to hear it! i'd love to get my playing critiqued by you all as well.

kindly,
peter

[pushkar000]

pushkar, seriously appreciate the detailed reply! transcription seems to be the no. 1 way to expand one's jazz vocabulary.. definitely need to make a more conscious effort to do so.

regarding your advice for adjusting your thinking in order to modulate efficiently, is the eventual result going to be the ability to "hold" the progression in my head for a more deliberate, vs. reactive approach? i am trying to build some sort of framework for jazz improvisation.. especially over modulating progressions.

definitely like the sound of dorian, for now, since it emphasizes that major 6th.. going to experiment with your approach as well. my ear has been conditioend to relate chords back to the key center, so soloing over modulating progressions is super weird for me since the chords aren't necessarily tonicized. i'm making small headway with the chord/scale approach.

thanks again pushkar!

pingu: absolutely love affirmation. any particular recommendations?

Yeah no worries the other guys know a lot more than I do so make sure you take all my stuff with a grain of salt.

It's already been discussed so I'm late, but the eventual result should be that you are going to "hear" the change in your head. When you can hear the thing, you'll suddenly automatically move your notes correctly(mostly!). This is your brain comprehending the relation of all the notes to the chords and changing the relationship as the chord changes. This is a subconscious kind of thing. I don't know if it can be trained other than by just playing/listening to the progression over and over and trying new things on it.

As far as a framework for jazz improvisation is concerned, I would have to say that contrary to popular belief, jazz is 99% the music and the tradition and 1% chords and scales. To that end, learning chords and scales won't get you very far. It's important to listen to lots and lots of jazz.
My recommendation is to find some jazz that you like and start learning the stuff by ear : melody, chords and solo(s). I find that one way to really enjoy stuff is learning it. I didn't "get" many things but after learning them I suddenly started enjoying them a lot more.
It's important to know the standard repertoire. Jazz "leans on" about 400 or so tunes(jazz standards) which form the repertoire. It's not really a defined thing, rather an informally accepted set of common tunes that everybody plays on. You can look up lists of "most important jazz standards" for ideas on what to listen to and what to learn.

As far as chords and scales and things, there are ways to sound jazzy without having to transcribe 100's of solos. I believe that triadic improvisation coupled with common jazz things such as triplets, approaches etc. can really give you a head start into the world of jazz improvisation. I personally don't care much for this method. Several of my friends stand by it. It has its merits in getting to know the fretboard better etc. Its the same thing as arpeggios but easier. So over Cmaj7, you can either do Cmaj7 arp, or split it into 2 - Cmaj Emin triads.

Also, it's important to have a strong swing feel, phrase tastefully and have a great time feel. This is something that is unfortunately ALWAYS neglected by guitar players.

Example :
I pick "Stella by Starlight" a very popular jazz standard.
I get 5-6 versions of it played by different people. I like 3 versions and of those 3 versions I like 2 solos.
I learn one solo and I learn one or two licks of the other solo.
I learn the main melody of the tune from a vocal version. Then I learn the chords. If I can't learn by ear, I consult the internet.
Now I know the chords, I practice several things on the tune. I practice my triads over the tune. Then I practice triads with approach notes. Then I apply triplet patterns. Combine them all.
I now play the solo I learned over a backing track, then I mix everything up. I play my triads, my solo, the approaches and triplets and everything, and slowly I start to add my own stuff to the mix.

Best is to get a competent and passionate teacher. Never trust a stranger on the internet!
As with all things, remember first and foremost to enjoy.

All the best,
Pushkar

[intheory]

pushkar,

what a post! and you read my mind, been working at playing over the stella changes lately.

100% -- very much need to work on my time feel, and i share the same sentiments about it being neglected.

going to be chewing on your post for a while.

kindly,
peter

p.s. here is a very rough 18th-or-so take over spain from nine months ago. i idolized yngwie for a while.. and it shows. some arguably fast licks here and there, and not much in the way of musical content. i very much welcome all critique.

[pushkar000]

pushkar,

what a post! and you read my mind, been working at playing over the stella changes lately.

100% -- very much need to work on my time feel, and i share the same sentiments about it being neglected.

going to be chewing on your post for a while.

kindly,
peter

p.s. here is a very rough 18th-or-so take over spain from nine months ago. i idolized yngwie for a while.. and it shows. some arguably fast licks here and there, and not much in the way of musical content. i very much welcome all critique.

Hi man very nice playing! Good notes and phrasing.
Not much I can really say to help man...its really good as far as I can hear.
One thing that I can say which you can take or throw away depending on your taste is to play with the rhythm section.
What I hear is that you are floating above and around the rhythm that is laid down.
If the beat is swingin' then one thing you can do to sound good is to also get swingin' with the rhythm section - at least for some part of the solo. Of course there's many ways of sounding good and nobody made a law forcing you to play somebody else's time so take what I said with a grain of salt!


All the best,
Pushkar

[pushkar000]

Sorry to overload but I just want to add - that bit about triadic improvisation(in fact chords and scales in general) - its just training wheels. If you are going to use them, as Reg mentioned, you must eventually dump them and move on.

You'll start to sound very boring if you make these exercises a core part of your improvisation. You won't have a deep understanding of rhythm and swing without transcribing, and then what's going to happen is you're just going to launch into a constant stream of 8th notes with a poor and mechanical sense of swing and never pause because you have only trained yourself by playing triads(or whatever exercise/concept you used) instead of playing music aka the solos of the masters. In short you will sound very boring.

If you transcribe Coltrane or Martino and then do your constant stream of notes, its a different matter. You'll still have a good sense of rhythm and swing.

[intheory]

pushkar,

very much appreciate the kind words. i'm still processing your post (#20), haha. definitely will play with those rhythmic concepts you suggested as well. i'll be back in about a year or so (around when i'm finished transcribing giant steps). i admire coltrane's playing hugely -- any suggestions on good solos to start with?

kindly,
peter

[pushkar000]

pushkar,

very much appreciate the kind words. i'm still processing your post (#20), haha. definitely will play with those rhythmic concepts you suggested as well. i'll be back in about a year or so (around when i'm finished transcribing giant steps). i admire coltrane's playing hugely -- any suggestions on good solos to start with?

kindly,
peter

Hi Peter, sorry I don't really have any recommended solos for Coltrane - I am not familiar enough with his stuff to be going around telling others "X is good/Y is bad". I only have his Blue Train record. I in fact prefer Lee Morgan's solos. Of course all the players are monsters so there's not really much to "prefer"...

Only recommendation is to pick a nice solo over a nice tune that you like - its better not to go for stuff that you don't enjoy even though it might have some popular opinion of being "good" or something.

All the best,
Pushkar