Time: playing at the beginning, middle, or end of the beat?

[Michelle]

I have a question for mr.beaumont or MarkRhodes, or anyone who cares to post-
I was talking to "Doc" on the phone yesterday -he is one of the best jazz alto sax players in L.A.- we were talking about playing with the time. Doc said you can play at the beginning of the beat (anticipation), in the middle of the beat, or toward the end of the beat. When Doc is improvising in a jazz situation, he says he plays with the time…He said I tend to play in the middle of the beat, which can sound boring. I have been playing rhythm guitar for years, (right hand) Freddie Green swing style, Bossa Fingerstyle, and getting pretty confident on my comping, and this is the first time Doc has ever told me this! The good players tell me I have really good rhythm, but I certainly don't want to sound boring or predictable! In a duo with husband Bob, (if no "live" bass or drums or tracks, I suppose I should push the beat. In working with the metronome, how should I practice what Doc is trying to tell me? Doc is strictly a "player", and he has always given me sound advise on how to hip up my vocal phrasing, or my playing. Can you "in the pocket" rhythm players out there help me put into practice what Doc is trying to tell me?

Thank you!
Michelle

[docbop]

A matter of first getting rock solid time and developing your inner metronome. Then once you have that then you can practice playing on top or behind the beat. I long run you need to be able to control this different songs and parts require different feels.

I was lucky enough to get to hang around Jim Keltner the GREAT drummer whose done Jazz, then a ton of Rock, and now back doing Jazz more again. Well Keltner is known for playing the simplest of Rock drum beats but makes it sounds so big and fat. I night I asked him how he does it. He said in general his high hat is dead on the beat, his bass drum is on top of the beat, and he lays the snare behind the beat. That way he has it all covered makes for a big beat. Jim Keltner is on some really great old Gabor Szabo album High Contrast and Magical Connection worth checking out. Lately he's been playing gig around L.A. when he can with guitarist Anthony Wilson and there are some Youtube of that.

[Michelle]

Thank you! By saying I should get my rhythm "rock solid", do you want me to practice with the metronome "in the middle of the beat", as Doc says I do, or change my rhythm with the metronome to something else-a different feel, or time space? I mean- should I rehearse with the metronome with my natural rhythm for now , and just get that really solid? I have heard of Jim Keltner…some years back, Gabor Szabo played at a place down in Redondo Beach (so cal), called "Beach Bum Burt's", with Gene Leis on guitar. Many of us who taught at Gene Leis' Studio would all go down and hear them! Gabor was very nice-I loved his playing. I have a feeling playing with the time will be tricky. When I sing "Wave", I'm comfortable enough to play with the time with my voice, while keeping my right hand Bossa guitar steady, while husband Bob plays lead…but playing with the time on rhythm guitar will be tricky, yes? I want to swing, not drag! I'll have another conversation with Doc on this, but as a guitar player, I need it spelled out for me, so I don't practice wrong!
Thank you for your post!
Michelle

[mr. beaumont]

Well, I'd say that Freddie Green rhythm is pretty much right on the beat...

It seems to me that the soloist gets to play with time more...after all, can you really be ahead or behind the beat if nobody else is "on" it?

Playing behind the beat is almost synonymous with bluesy, soulful playing...it swings hard.

Listen to the Meters.

[monk]

I agree with Jeff. Playing ahead, on top or behind the beat is generally the province of the soloist. It's responsibility of the rhythm section to lay down a solid beat for singers and soloists.

In my mind I separate rhythm and comping. Swing rhythm is on the beat; comping can be more varied particularly if you're working with a bassist and drummer.

For bossa nova and samba, the chords are syncopated against a solid bass on One and Three, usually in a two bar pattern.

The more people who are playing will allow you to take liberties that won't be available when playing in a duo or trio.

The horn players I've worked with in a swing situation liked to hear a solid four-to-the-bar rhythm. It gives them something to swing over.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I'm a fellow student, but in terms of playing on different parts of the "beat" as I think y'all are talking about, I have found that working poly rhythms off of 8th note triplets is a huge thing. To me it was always easy to "jump" the beat (playing on the "&" in swing time?). The "after" was the part I just didn't get. If you start working on quarter-note triplet rhythms starting on the eighth note triplet right after the beat you enter the territory of understanding phrasing of singers like Billie Holiday. I hear everything in the eighth note triplet realm a ton better now. I can actually conceptualize rhythmically a lot of what Joe Pass is hearing on those long double-stopish runs on Virtuoso, although, as Monk said, it's a lot harder to have context without the backing.

And Jeff's right about the "after" being a blues thing. Bert Ligon talks about the polyrhythm created by playing those eighth note triplets in two voices (like a guitarist playing a basic blooze double stop turn-around). Once you learn to hear that, Billie and everyone else like that makes more sense and a lot of music that never utilizes that part of the beat starts to sound really straight.

[Vladan]

To OP and other knowledgeable, I'd need explanation. What does it mean?
Does it mean you're slightly ofset in either direction, respectively, constantly playing couple milliseconds before/ after actual beat, timing ithing, or it means starting phrases on "end" before/ after it, phrasing thing?

[keith]

I find this an interesting topic as I hear an ebb and flow in time of many if not most performances I hear ( by this I mean the time is not metronomic in nature ) So the subtle playing directly on the beat requires the reference of where the beat is at that time. Also the amount of time that we speak about in playing on or off the beat will vary between listeners and that definition will vary where one person's ahead of the beat will be another's anticipation of the changes. The best example I've heard of this minor variation on the beat was from the Pat Metheny tape of the student who's time was off.

https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...g-my-craw.html

The timing part starts around 8:00 in the video but you'll hear him playing with a drum machine on the beat and then drag back behind the beat and then back up to the beat. It's subtle but you can feel it. This playing with the beat I always thought was the soloist's domain and that what happened in comping was more anticipating or delaying the harmony. I guess one could play with the beat in comping but if it wasn't consistent I wonder if it would just sound like bad time! I'm curious to others thoughts on this.

[matt.guitarteacher]

Also, in re. to reference instrument playing the beat, the reference doesn't have to be another instrument or even another "voice" on the guitar. Whatever you're playing "around the beat" just has to clearly define the beat. A Charleston has a "reference" in that the first part of the pattern is on the beat.

You can "hear the beat" (even on the off-beat accent) of a Charleston rhythm though there's nothing actually happening "on the beat". To some degree you can stretch things a bit farther than the simplicity of a Charleston in terms of time or complexity. You just have to judge whether an audience is going to be able to hear the beat. You can take it too far.

Joe Pass loses me when he chases polyrhythms over multiple measures, and I somewhat understand what he's doing more than the average non-musician. I'd always want someone with less skill (playing or listening) than me to be able to clearly discern the beat from what I'm playing "around the beat".

If you've got a good soloist there, that's a beat reference as well.

[matt.guitarteacher]

[I may be misunderstanding what we're talking about as well. There seem to be two conversations: one re. a constant playing of miliseconds to one side of the beat or another, the other conversation being about anticipating or "jumping" the beat (or playing after the beat) on some subdivision of the time structure (eighth note triplets etc). Also, I didn't get the idea that the OP was necessarily talking of playing on a specific part of the beat consistently on every beat. I apologize if I'm adding to confusion.]

[Michelle]

mr. beaumont-
Thank you for responding. When husband Bob and I were in L. A. we studied with David, who taught at USC. He taught me the "Freddie Green" rhythm for "Satin Doll"- Count Basie swing style…I understand that is a specific "old school" rhythm style that sounds good on songs from that era…I wouldn't use that rhythm on "Autumn Leaves". For that tune, I have been learning some various "charleston" variations for comping, while Bob solos…I understand that a soloist can "play with the time" more-It's my job, as a rhythm player, to keep the groove going. I promise I will work with my metronome every time I practice! So playing behind the beat is more in blues, soul and funk? I listened to the Meters on youtube- wow! What a fantastic Funk groove! I heard "I Need More Time" ('69 LP), Cissy Strut ('69 LP), and "Fire on the Bayou". I can hear how the drummer is laying back, a slow, easy funk groove-but not dragging. The bass seems to be pushing a bit-this is the James Brown groove, (according to wikipedia). I love hammond B-3! I'm going to get some of their CD's! I clearly need to find a jazz guitar teacher in our area who is hip to the different rhythms and feels. I saw Buddy Rich in L.A. with a big band-what a power house! I get what you mean regarding " reference" -I can feel that -when I'm doing one of the charleston variations…I don't think I'll be taking it too far at this point! Just learning the basics of comping right now. A players timing is a serious issue-I'm going to focus on my timing a lot more from now on!
Thank You!
Michelle

[Michelle]

monk-
Thanks for the response! I like that you separate rhythm and comping. I get that swing is on the beat, a la Freddie Green. I only know about 3 charleston variations right now, and I can mix them up (improv) them during "Autumn Leaves." That is fun to do! Husband Bob is soloing, and I try to "feed" him, with the appropriate rhythms. The bossa feel I can do pretty well-it sounds like a nice "Brazilian" groove. I love the syncopation! I know in a duo with Bob, I must be more solid. I will work on a solid four-to-the-bar rhythm, with my metronome, unless it's a waltz…we have worked up "Out of Nowhere" by Johnny Smith, I'm using the charleston rhythms there also.
Thank You!
Michelle

[Michelle]

matt.guitarteacher

I need to check out your "lessons" section-maybe find some exercises on the different triplets. This will be good for Bob to learn also, as a lead player. I will show this thread to Bob, and have him show me some triplet work. We have lots of jazz instruction books/CD's that will have examples.
Thanks again!
Michelle

[matt.guitarteacher]

matt.guitarteacher

I need to check out your "lessons" section-maybe find some exercises on the different triplets. This will be good for Bob to learn also, as a lead player. I will show this thread to Bob, and have him show me some triplet work. We have lots of jazz instruction books/CD's that will have examples.
Thanks again!
Michelle

Actually my blog link is more for disambiguation re. my username and to avoid confusion about my being any kind of expert in jazz. :-) you won't find any jazz content there.

I teach kids in the school room setting and private lessons mostly. on this site, I'd consider myself mostly a fellow student. Playing around the beat is something I have just kind of been chasing pretty hard for the last year or so myself.

Check out Reg's YouTube channel. He's a serious pro and talks about this stuff on the micro and macro levels of comping. Can't link to it from my phone, but someone else can if I don't get to the first. If you do an advanced search with his username , I'm sure there's a link to his YouTube page and his signature or something.

[Michelle]

dortmundjazzguitar

Thank you for the video! I like how he says the metronome has to do with precise time. Rhythm has do do with our natural human rhythms, like walking or heart beat. My rhythmic feel is pretty good-I can see now I need to work on my timing. That video was helpful-thank you! The book "Beyond Metronome" looked interesting too.
Michelle

[Reg]

I've posted on this subject many times...

Short version... almost all music has a rhythmic accent pattern. just like latin grooves. When you play that accent pattern perfect... exactly as notated or what could be notated. Your playing the vanilla version... straight, not really in the pocket because your missing much of what playing in a pocket is... sometimes referred to as the feel of the pocket, there are lots of terms etc, But what is happening is that just like there is a pattern...to the accent pattern of the groove.... where on and off the beat of the accent pattern you play or imply also has a pattern. There is organization of this where on and off the best you lock the feel.

This same concept or rhythmic application can also be applied to harmonic concepts.

Music also has harmonic rhythmic accent patterns... just like the attacks of rhythmic accent patterns.

When you simply play the notated changes... generally with jazz etc... the 7th chords, your again playing the straight vanilla version. Not bad or wrong... but definitely not hip or what I would call in a Jazz style.

And the next level of organization is what changes and chord patterns you add to the existing changes.... with out changing the implied rhythmic and harmonic accent patterns...

I generally always call and play these on the weak side of the beat.... the beat being the implied and original rhythmic and harmonic accent patterns

[Michelle]

pkirk
I printed out the "micro timing" chapter. Really interesting stuff! You could certainly say that swing is "groove-based" -just listen to Count Basie! I hope my feel is fluid, and not stiff. I guess there really are many subdivisions in a beat-I have a lot more respect for players with good rhythm now! I don't think enough people take rhythm seriously on their instrument. I understand about all the players being "locked in". "Doc", the alto sax player I mentioned at the beginning of my thread, says that a drummer and a bass player is like a marriage- they both have to feel where ONE is, the same way. Drummers have favorite bass players they like to play with…I'll work on keeping my groove constant. I haven't played in a group situation very much at all-I spent years playing solo, doing my singer/songwriter thing, (originals), then some duo work, but I have only had a few "band" situations. Worked my way up to jazz, swing and bossa nova, now in a duo with my husband. I think my lack of playing with a lot of other people, live bass player and drummer, has hurt my understanding of rhythm in a group context! I've sat in on jazz jam sessions, and it is a blast! Even though I can't hear myself, or know where the best place is to stand onstage. Ha! I need to get out more…
Thanks again,
Michelle

[Michelle]

Reg

matt.guitarteacher suggested I look at your youtube channel-do have a link you could send me? I love what you said about harmonic rhythmic accent patterns. Where could I see/hear some examples? I try not to sound vanilla-I use the extended chords, and try to find hip substitution chords…what you said about "the weak side of the beat", are there any examples I could listen to? This is wonderful feedback from everyone here! I am so glad I joined this forum! I learn best by hearing/seeing examples-I sure need a good jazz teacher right now-Bob and I are looking... I pick things up pretty fast by watching, then try to integrate it on the gig.
Thank you Reg...
Michelle

[richb2]

I am going to add a small comment because I am not nearly as accomplished as most of the regular posters up here. I have had this conversation with one of my guitar teachers who is an accomplished brazilian bossa player. In bossa nova, what makes it sound like bossa is often playing ahead of the beat. Not all the time, just sometimes. That is the difference between a bossa player and a jazz player trying to play bossa. My teacher did mention that when you play with a piano, you need to be less "expressive" in your playing.

[Reg]

.... Reg523
it's not really a YouTube channel, I just use YT for downloading vids for this forum, but feel free to check it out. There are a lot of vids.

If you pick a few tunes you know well.... I'll post an example of what playing on or off the beat and locking into a groove is... I know way to many tunes and I read well enough to sound like I know any tune I don't from lead sheet

Or you could use the new tune of the month at the practical standards thread... I believe Dec. is What is this thing called Love... Or whatever you think works best... I can lock into any pocket... Drummers love me on gigs.

[Michelle]

Reg-
That is really nice of you! Some tunes husband Bob and I are doing as a duo:
Autumn Leaves
Wave
One Note Samba
Ipanema
Corcovado
Satin Doll
Georgia
Blue Bossa
Desifinado

I'll check out the "practical standards thread"-I haven't seen that yet…I'm brand new here, but I've been posting alot!
I really appreciate this! Thank you-I can't wait to see what you are going to show me! (and everyone also on this thread).
Michelle

[Michelle]

Reg-
I just checked out your youtube video examples-very cool! I looked at several…What kind of blond guitar is that? I like the tone! When you give me my examples, can you go slower? You move very fast while you are filming, could you slow it down for me? I'm not dense, but I would like to follow along on my guitar, sitting in front of the computer…unless you just want me to strictly listen-that would be fine! Could you give the metronome tempos too? I really want to absorb this!
Thanks again for offering to do this-
Michelle

[Michelle]

richb2
I love Bossa Nova! I thought I had it right at first, but a teacher (in L.A.) corrected me on my right hand technique. It is a very specific right hand style. I think you are right-it feels like you should push the beat-I try to push the bass lines a bit…it has to do with the "clave", percussion, Brazilian groove. I was also told that Brazilian guitarists play in the low end of the guitar-they play the low bass parts of the chords…What Bossa tunes do you know? This music makes me feel good while playing it-the Samba tunes are much faster-I love Antonio Carlos Jobim! He wrote the most beautiful melodies…Some tunes my husband Bob and I play as a duo-
Desifinado, Ipanema, One Note Samba, Wave, Corcovado, Insensitez (How Insensitive)…Agua De Beber.
Like I said-I love Bossa!
Thank you for your post-
Michelle

[eh6794]

This is an awesome thread. Can someone clarify for me?

When we talk about on, before and after the beat, are we talking about structured rhythms a 16th, 32nd and or triplets around the beats that can be written down, or is it something thats less structured and difficult to write down?

[keith]

I can't speak for everyone ( or actually anyone outside of myself ) but in my post I was not speaking of a measured, structured interval and I don't think Metheny in his lesson was speaking of this either. If you think of the time it takes for the metronome to signal or the snare or bass drum to sound, if you are truly locked in to it, you will either be at the very beginning, middle or at the end of that event. Each of those places has a different feel when played consistently as such. The Metheny tape shows him playing in the middle and behind for comparison. The metronome video above gives a graphic representation of the beat in a very slow tempo and you can hear him actually be off ( actually between the beats) and then go through the beat with his taps. A drum flam would be the extreme exaggerated example of being behind and probably would be considered off the beat technically but may give you an idea of what I thought.

On the other hand, maybe I'm completely off base from the rest of this thread!!