how to study rhythm changes?

[Alex Fortuny]

Yesterday I went to a jazz jam session and I saw that they were playing rhythm changes structure all the time. Is a very common progression in jazz, right?

My question is, how I should start to study this progression of chords and how I have to think when improvising?

I tried it with slow tempo, but people often play rhythm changes so fast..

(PD: Could you recommend me some famous easy standards that I must know?)

thanks and sorry for my bad english..

[montgomerwes]

Oleo was the one I started with. There are infinite options for the melody!

This came from the New Real Book no. 1
Its a good idea to see which notes need to change in order to proceed to the next chord. The progression moves very smoothly and makes sense in a nice structured way.

Note the turnaround B section. (D7 - G7 - C7 - F7) In case you're not aware, each root jumps down a fifth (or up a fourth).
For example D7 is the dominant (V) in G, G7 is the dominant of C, and so on...

[verdellfinnamore]

You can think of the first section as 6 bars of Blues with a 2 bar turnaround.

[Alex Fortuny]

I don't have problems with the B section, my main problem are the A sections, specially the last 2 bars of each and the II-V-I that goes to Ebmaj7. What do you think when improvising 6th bar (Ebmaj7 / Ebm6)?

What rhythm changes is more easier, Antrophology or Oleo? (I started learning Antrophology but i think that the melody is a little bit difficult..)

Thanks for your replies!!

Àlex.

[franco6719]

The easiest way to approach it is to "think" (really, it's a question of trying to hear) of the first four bars (I VI II V) as just what they say: all chords in the key of Bb that can take Bb major with appropriate exceptions for avoid notes and so on. Then, we you get to that the bar 5, you have a Bb7 leading into the key of Eb. So, you think in terms of the key center Eb. The Ebminor is a kind of passing chord (use an arpeggio) and then you hit a series of II-Vs in C and Bb. You can also use blues in Bb and then Eb, until you hit the II-Vs.

Oleo is much easier to remember melodically. Most people start out with that one.

[franco6719]

The real point is not to worry too much about the slight substitutions and modifications here and there. These were added to liven things up a bit and make improvisation more challenging. When you are first learning rhythm changes though, the important thing is learning the RHYTHM CHANGES (1, 6,2,5 as in "I Got Rhythm") and the bridge.

[Alex Fortuny]

Thank You!!

[Jake Hanlon]

I'm gonna use caps here and no I'm not yelling I just want to emphasize a few words here

If you think in scales, you'll sound like scales.

Rhythm Changes is Bebop, and therefore it's time to go the bebop route. Learn patterns, licks and arpeggios to match the changes. There are millions of solos out there that are full of all the information you need.

Generalizing and saying that it's just Bb for 4 bars, Eb for 2 bars and then Bb for 2 bars IS WRONG WRONG. It isn't about key centers, it is about resolution of harmonic tension and using the turn around to create a melody. A scale will get you the "7" notes you can play over a given chord but it won't give you any information about which notes you need to focus on when you are making your way from one chord to the next.

Thinking of scales is almost always a narrowminded way to look at FUNCTIONAL harmony and nothing in jazz is more harmonically stable and functional then a Rhythm Changes PROGRESSION. It is just that, a progression of chords and your lines need to pay attention to the progression. If you sit there thinking of 7 note scales on each chord as they pass by then you're going to be missing out a whole lot on the nuts and bolts and the juiciy fun parts of a Rhythm Changes session. Plus if you think about it that way it makes it much harder to start to try and encorporate subsitute chords.

The Bridge is the money on Rhythm Changes. The A section is where you can play your Hip shit (listen on Eternal triangle 2 famous recordings Sonny Stit vs Sonny Rollins vs Dizzy and then on another recording Freddie Hubbard vs Woody Shaw) and on the bridge you nail those changes as if you don't have any option other then hitting every 7th to 3rd or 5th to b9 resolution you can come across in those 8 bars.

[franco6719]

I'm gonna use caps here and no I'm not yelling I just want to emphasize a few words here

If you think in scales, you'll sound like scales.

Rhythm Changes is Bebop, and therefore it's time to go the bebop route. Learn patterns, licks and arpeggios to match the changes. There are millions of solos out there that are full of all the information you need.

Generalizing and saying that it's just Bb for 4 bars, Eb for 2 bars and then Bb for 2 bars IS WRONG WRONG. It isn't about key centers, it is about resolution of harmonic tension and using the turn around to create a melody. A scale will get you the "7" notes you can play over a given chord but it won't give you any information about which notes you need to focus on when you are making your way from one chord to the next.

Thinking of scales is almost always a narrowminded way to look at FUNCTIONAL harmony and nothing in jazz is more harmonically stable and functional then a Rhythm Changes PROGRESSION. It is just that, a progression of chords and your lines need to pay attention to the progression. If you sit there thinking of 7 note scales on each chord as they pass by then you're going to be missing out a whole lot on the nuts and bolts and the juiciy fun parts of a Rhythm Changes session. Plus if you think about it that way it makes it much harder to start to try and encorporate subsitute chords.

The Bridge is the money on Rhythm Changes. The A section is where you can play your Hip shit (listen on Eternal triangle 2 famous recordings Sonny Stit vs Sonny Rollins vs Dizzy and then on another recording Freddie Hubbard vs Woody Shaw) and on the bridge you nail those changes as if you don't have any option other then hitting every 7th to 3rd or 5th to b9 resolution you can come across in those 8 bars.

Personally,I don't think in scales as a general practice anymore. But I did when I started out and I don't think there is anything wrong with learning in this way. It is the way I started out at Berklee under John Baboian. Are you suggesting he is an incompetent teacher? Mark Levine also says that this chord/scale approach is the best way to think of things, at least in the beginning.

However, Especially on bebop tunes, I agree with your view entirely. It is not how the music is actually played! You have to know the arpeggios and how to connect them together, develop lines with passing tones, chromaticism and so on. Later on, you can start to think about substitutions and reharmonization. Of course, you have to listen to the music and try to develop your ears and so on. But, as in every thing else in life, people learn at different rates and sometimes require different approaches. Back in my day, for example, there were no on-line transcriptions and very few resources of that sort. If you wanted to learn a line, you had to learn it by ear. Unfortunately, I had a very weak ear. Sorry, not my fault. I got through changes by using scales, rythmic variation, my own invented licks and just a general feel for the music. I was playng with some of the finest musicians at Berkler after about 2 years of 10 hour-a-day practice in this manner.

Now, I focus almost exclusively on ear-training and learning lines from transcriptions. To be honest, I don't know. I just tried to answer the question as best I could from the context of beginning to play.

[franco6719]

"If you think in scales, you'll sound like scales."

Which is why I don't practice scales AT ALL any more. Scales are useless. I want to play what I hear. Play what you hear, then. Period.

[Jake Hanlon]

I dig, and no I don't think your teacher was incompetient, I have no idea who he is which is my own ignorance to who out of the hundreds of guitarists have been teaching at berklee. Scales are a method to madness and are useful pieces of information. It is like an alphabet, in and of itself they seem to be the answer to all of anyone's improvisational problems.

it doesn't matter who your teacher is or was, what a rediculous statement to insinuate that I meant something like that. I can name drop who my teacher was and in the end it honestly doesn't really mean anything Mark Levine is one guy who wrote a book about Jazz theory about of about a thousand guys who've written comprehensive books on Jazz theory, he presents his well thought out (although drawn out and in some places redundant imo) view of Harmony and form but none of that is new information. Just put in a very readable way, I dig that book. I dig other books more.

I only play scales as a warm up in technique after i go through 3 other things. I want to play what I hear also, and so I do. If I were to explain what I hear it would be far more on the lines of saying "voice leading" and "phrasing" rather then I guess a more theoretical answer of "major modes or melodic minor".

And "back in my day" the internet didn't have any of this stuff either. Maybe I don't have as many years as you do, since we don't know each other I won't assume anything. But when i was starting to learn to play the internet was a shell of what it is now. No transcription sites worth anything. Transcribe was not a program, if I wanted to slow something down I had to put it on cassette tape and take it to a machine to get it slowed down and it would change the pitch so I'd have to transpose afterwards, ear training software didn't exist. There was no Finale worth using and Youtube was probably technologically impossible.

I suppose it's all semantics right. I bet we could all play something that someone would transcribe and say "Jake played mixolydian here" and I'd be like... "Wow, so what?"

Anyways I don't mean to be argumentative, I probably came across that way. So take it with a grain of salt maybe.

[franco6719]

I dig, and no I don't think your teacher was incompetient, I have no idea who he is which is my own ignorance to who out of the hundreds of guitarists have been teaching at berklee. Scales are a method to madness and are useful pieces of information. It is like an alphabet, in and of itself they seem to be the answer to all of anyone's improvisational problems.

it doesn't matter who your teacher is or was, what a rediculous statement to insinuate that I meant something like that. I can name drop who my teacher was and in the end it honestly doesn't really mean anything Mark Levine is one guy who wrote a book about Jazz theory about of about a thousand guys who've written comprehensive books on Jazz theory, he presents his well thought out (although drawn out and in some places redundant imo) view of Harmony and form but none of that is new information. Just put in a very readable way, I dig that book. I dig other books more.

I only play scales as a warm up in technique after i go through 3 other things. I want to play what I hear also, and so I do. If I were to explain what I hear it would be far more on the lines of saying "voice leading" and "phrasing" rather then I guess a more theoretical answer of "major modes or melodic minor".

And "back in my day" the internet didn't have any of this stuff either. Maybe I don't have as many years as you do, since we don't know each other I won't assume anything. But when i was starting to learn to play the internet was a shell of what it is now. No transcription sites worth anything. Transcribe was not a program, if I wanted to slow something down I had to put it on cassette tape and take it to a machine to get it slowed down and it would change the pitch so I'd have to transpose afterwards, ear training software didn't exist. There was no Finale worth using and Youtube was probably technologically impossible.

I suppose it's all semantics right. I bet we could all play something that someone would transcribe and say "Jake played mixolydian here" and I'd be like... "Wow, so what?"

Anyways I don't mean to be argumentative, I probably came across that way. So take it with a grain of salt maybe.

That's all fine. I was being a bit defensive with the name-dropping stuff just because I felt like you were saying or implying that I was completely ignorant of this stuff and have no idea what I was talking about at all. You did come across as confrontational with the WRONG, WRONG, WRONG stuff, you have to admit. It may well even be bad advice, but you don't have to get nasty about the matter.

I take your point and appreciate especially the part about over-theorizing stuff. I see this sort of thing all the time on some forums and Youtube or whatever: the secret to Scofield's playing is the lydian #5, or Pat Martino is all about Dorian modes. Not really. I DO know what you mean.

[hubert54]

oh, well done!

But I don't understand what you are discussing.
Berklee or a salt of grain about personal experience?
Might be it helps you discovering something.
Sorry, I would like to share further experience ( loco citato - fretboard ones )

all the best

[franco6719]

Well, hopefully the original questioner has gotten something out of the discussion. I was just trying to participate and help. If not.....well, one can just be civil about the thing, eh?

[franco6719]

Thank You!!

Your welcome.

[hubert54]

oh, I'm always trying to apologize my postings...
the guitar reminds me of my lazyness
Might be also the influence of beer...

never mind

[Jazzyteach65]

Don't get too overwhelmed, although ONE INTERESTING thing you can do, is harmonic subs. If you arpeggiate a d+ trid, and connect it to a Eb+ triad to a e+ triad to a f+ triad, you will find it works as a substitue for Bb-G7-c-F7.

There's a few schools of thaught here. Joe Pass did an entire video on a turnaround, an created a few etudes of rhythm changes, where is true Pass fashio, he just outlines the harmony and uses the altered chord tones as passing notes. He basically uses domintants for every chord. I actually treat the bridge as a ii-v e.i. am-D7 instead of D7.

The other school of thaught is to just hear the changes and play the appropriate tones, like Jim Hall. You can use alot of space and get lot of mileage out of it!!!

[Av's Dad]

I must be old school but for the A-part I just play over the Bb letting the chords guide my note choice unconsciously. The original melody to the original tune "I got Rythym" is pretty straight forward simple. The chords are there to embelish the melody not the other way around I think; to add some interest to a fairly static melody.

Those chords come pretty fast and I'm not about to play vertically over each chord separately. I find nowadays, I'm more interested in the tonal centres than in the individual chords improvization wise that is, anyway. It frees me up more and lets me float over changes some; can take me a bit outside sometimes but as someone here said, resolution is the important thing and it forgives minor transgressions along the way.

The B section is pretty standard II V stuff although the changes happen slowly here which is cool so I can play over each chord separately or do my standard II-V licks.

Anyway, that's how I do it. Sometimes you have to just open your mind and let the music flow through.

Gary

[randalljazz]

elementary position studies for rhythm changes, basic two measure cell: BbMA7-Gm7-Cm7-F7. practice each section until fluent, aim for 180-230 bpm. quarter notes are given for simplicity. modify note values to taste.

diligent practice should lead melodic improvisation, with an intuitive feel for the harmony, as well as greater familiarity with the fingerboard.

(for measure 5 & 6, think A-Ab-G-Gb, and resolve.)

[Paul J Edwards]

I'm gonna use caps here and no I'm not yelling I just want to emphasize a few words here

If you think in scales, you'll sound like scales.

Rhythm Changes is Bebop, and therefore it's time to go the bebop route. Learn patterns, licks and arpeggios to match the changes. There are millions of solos out there that are full of all the information you need.

Generalizing and saying that it's just Bb for 4 bars, Eb for 2 bars and then Bb for 2 bars IS WRONG WRONG. It isn't about key centers, it is about resolution of harmonic tension and using the turn around to create a melody. A scale will get you the "7" notes you can play over a given chord but it won't give you any information about which notes you need to focus on when you are making your way from one chord to the next.

Thinking of scales is almost always a narrowminded way to look at FUNCTIONAL harmony and nothing in jazz is more harmonically stable and functional then a Rhythm Changes PROGRESSION. It is just that, a progression of chords and your lines need to pay attention to the progression. If you sit there thinking of 7 note scales on each chord as they pass by then you're going to be missing out a whole lot on the nuts and bolts and the juiciy fun parts of a Rhythm Changes session. Plus if you think about it that way it makes it much harder to start to try and encorporate subsitute chords.

The Bridge is the money on Rhythm Changes. The A section is where you can play your Hip shit (listen on Eternal triangle 2 famous recordings Sonny Stit vs Sonny Rollins vs Dizzy and then on another recording Freddie Hubbard vs Woody Shaw) and on the bridge you nail those changes as if you don't have any option other then hitting every 7th to 3rd or 5th to b9 resolution you can come across in those 8 bars.

Excellent!!!!

This S&^$t ain't easy IF you want to be good.

[franco6719]

I'm sorry to say this but: Lately, I get the distinct feeling that these forums are more about showing off one's knowledge or selling one's preferred approach than about helping out the original questioner. Not a specific criticism; I may have been guilty myself.

[hubert54]

agree, dear franco
but perhaps it's "malinconia"?
never stop sharing your esperanza

all the best
Hubert (the strange one)

[hubert54]

But there is another view of "thinking"
that forum is a lot of fun for me.
Btw ( means subway ) there is a tune called "You can't go home again"
Music by Djalma Ferriera - lyrics from Leonard Feather
"The leaves have fallen and the trees are bare..."
that reminds me of Bach
baroque is challenging or not

never mind
Yodeling from Tirol ( who knows what that is?)
umberto pazzo

[franco6719]

Malincolia... probably so. Never mind. It will pass, as usual.

"never stop sharing your esperanza." Hmm...... Don't know what to make of that. Esperienza = experience?

[franco6719]

"You can't go home again"

Good tune. No, you cannot. But you have to keep doing something in the present and what better than the things you have enjoyed the most (albeit with a little difficulty and pain as well).

The trees are certainly not bare yet anyway. Enough psicologia.