how to study rhythm changes?

**hubert54** · 04-17-2009, 04:02 AM

no esperienza o esperanza - a lot of words...
but - hm - "what is music or overtones"?
stay thundered
esperanza means - "sono sempre elevi"

happy birthday
desierto

**hubert54** · 04-17-2009, 04:06 AM

it's not a "good" tune
you might alter chords to it, nevertheless
it's - as far as to me - a great answer or not.
le domande- sono - sonando
meine Güte, ich red nur Blödsinn
happy compleanno

**wordsmith** · 04-17-2009, 07:08 AM

Originally Posted by franco6719

I'm sorry to say this but: Lately, I get the distinct feeling that these forums are more about showing off one's knowledge or selling one's preferred approach than about helping out the original questioner. Not a specific criticism; I may have been guilty myself.

I don't think I've ever noticed anyone showing off......showing their knowledge, yes, and for that I continue to be grateful. I've always been impressed with how much time the experienced guys here devote to answering questions as best they can. Perhaps their digression away from the original question is part of the answer sometimes?
It's important to always remember that this is an internet forum, where we can't pick up on tone of voice, facial expression and so on. So there's always bound to be the occasional misunderstanding. That's forum life, anywhere. Capital letters in a post, for instance, can be interpreted as emphasis on the point, or as shouting, possibly belligerently.

Good thread, though.

Stringbean · 04-17-2009, 01:54 PM

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

It isn't about key centers, it is about resolution of harmonic tension and using the turn around to create a melody.

word up

**Av's Dad** · 04-17-2009, 03:40 PM

Originally Posted by Jake Hanlon

It isn't about key centers, it is about resolution of harmonic tension and using the turn around to create a melody.

I think it's all about key centres (Canadian spelling); tension resolve, sure within the key centres or relative to an individual chord and melodies should be created whether during a turnaround or in any part of an improvised solo. There are great techniques to adding interest to a melody such as tension resolve but ultimately it comes down to soloing over key centres and drawing on those techniques we've learned and internalized.

When you get down to it, when we create an impovized solo or melody, we draw from the 12 tones surrounding each key centre and use the techniques (scales, tensions, intervals, rythmic devices, etc.) to narrow down what we want to say, make it interresting, and deliver the emotions we want to convey.

I don't want to be critical and Jake's post (my fellow Bluenoser) is very helpful, correct and generous. But to me key centres are what it's all about all the time and everything else is suppoprtive to that.

Gary

**whippersnapper** · 04-17-2009, 07:56 PM

Some cool tunes using the changes....

Oleo
Lester Leaps In
Flintstones Theme

**Paul J Edwards** · 04-17-2009, 11:04 PM

I am kinda new to this. Been playing Blues and Rock for too many years to mention.

It's not just about the key centers but outlining the chord changes and the harmony when you solo. Play YOUR harmony and changes.
You should be able to isolate your solo from the accompaniment and still hear the changes.

Key centers help but ultimately its the chords or harmonization that defines your solo ability.

**Av's Dad** · 04-18-2009, 12:55 AM

Of course; totally agree. That's implicit in playing jazz. I'm not saying ignore the changes. I'm saying it's not "....not about the key centres...."

When the chords are coming really fast as in the first part of "Changes", it's more important to play over the key rather than to each chord IMHO. That would tend to sound mechanical. I'm also saying with some familiarity with the tune, the chords influence on your soloing are there unconsciously and naturally.

I'm also saying that key centres are the most important thing to a soloist, more important than the chords embellishing the key, but draw on all tools at your disposal.

Gary

**franco6719** · 04-18-2009, 08:41 AM

"He's a very accomplished player (see his website for a complete bio) who is extremely generous in giving thoughtful advice. He participates on three seperate boards I'm a member of, and at no time in 3 years have I ever seen a post where he talks down to anyone or cops an attitude.

As to who agrees with him? Jimmy Bruno and Herb Ellis both are extremely dismissive of the whole chord-scale approach. So was Barney Kessel. I'd add every old timer I've ever played with never expressed any interest in the CST approach. Finally, Jake was merely pointing out the limitations of this manner of thinking in a bop context, he actually acknowledged its potential usefulness with more modern forms"

In logic, this is an argumentative fallacy called "argument from authority".

And he was certainly talking down to me in his previous rant about "WRONG, WRONG, WRONG". That was just plain rude and obviously so.

There are many different approaches. Pat Martino would suggest using "minor scales" on everything, KEEPING ACCOUNT OF THE CHORD CHANGES THOUGH.

But I've had enough of this.

**franco6719** · 04-18-2009, 08:51 AM

"When the chords are coming really fast as in the first part of "Changes", it's more important to play over the key rather than to each chord IMHO. That would tend to sound mechanical. I'm also saying with some familiarity with the tune, the chords influence on your soloing are there unconsciously and naturally."

Absolutely agree. If you can pick your arpeggios cleanly up and down as fast as most rhythm changes tunes are played (around 300 bpm), then good for you. I don't think it's a wise way to approach the thing as an absolute beginner by any means though. And that's where my comment began. I said "perhaps the <b>easiest way to approach the A section of Oleo, etc.. </b> is to think in terms of key centers and blues licks." Period.

**Nabil B** · 04-18-2009, 11:58 AM

The way I see it, thinking in terms of key centers is just a way to navigate around your instrument in an easier way. It gives you a basic pitch collection to work with, which is a good start. Now that doesn't mean that you can't go beyond it, using outside notes and addressing the chord changes.

The huge advantage of thinking in key centers is that it minimizes the theoretical thinking (what arpeggio must I play ? where is it ?) and gives more room in our mind to actually think about the music.

This is how Jimmy Bruno teaches jazz, and after years of hearing folks suggest very complicated strategies and techniques to improv that just make you want to give up, his approach is a breath of fresh air.

**franco6719** · 04-18-2009, 02:26 PM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

The way I see it, thinking in terms of key centers is just a way to navigate around your instrument in an easier way. It gives you a basic pitch collection to work with, which is a good start. Now that doesn't mean that you can't go beyond it, using outside notes and addressing the chord changes.

The huge advantage of thinking in key centers is that it minimizes the theoretical thinking (what arpeggio must I play ? where is it ?) and gives more room in our mind to actually think about the music.

This is how Jimmy Bruno teaches jazz, and after years of hearing folks suggest very complicated strategies and techniques to improv that just make you want to give up, his approach is a breath of fresh air.

Really? Jimmy Bruno teaches along those lines. That's actually reassuring for me to hear right now. Truth be told: it's just the way I have always thought of things, especially on moderate to fast tunes. Now I'm trying to make this transition to thinking in terms of guide tones, arpeggiating,and so on. It seemed like it would be easier or natural or something. But I really have to struggle to think that way, even on ballads. Indeed, I was just feeling like giving up and saying "You just don't have it, old boy." But I keep remembering some very serious people and good musicians at Berklee saying that I was sounding "good" and I was doing a lot of playing with some of the best people after a few years of intensely hard work.

This is not some bragging BS, I'm seriously wondering if I may have just been bullshitting all these people and myself. I'm certainly not worse, and probably somewhat better at this point, than I was then at any rate. My ears have improved through hard work, etc.. But I'm much more easily frustrated. I don't know what to make of the situation. (This should have probably been a separate thread).

**Nabil B** · 04-18-2009, 02:36 PM

That's the way I did it before, but everytime I talked about it, everybody was saying "no it's not the way you should think about it". So I tried the academical way but it didn't get me anywhere, and this was the time when I really wanted to give up. But fortunately, I came across Jimmy's online guitar institute and I was glad to see that I had the same approach that he teaches. Jazz is still a very frustrating thing for me though, I developped a love/hate relationship with guitar playing.

METOPERARETIRED · 04-18-2009, 08:31 PM

I am new to this group so please indulge me. I am Herb Baker and I suggest that you first check out some of my Musical background with all the formal education at New England Conservatory of Music, Tanglewood, Jazz, Broadway, Ice Capades, 400+ Concerts in Carnegie Hall, Recordings, and more boring stuff.. I ended my career with 33 years as Principal Percussionist / Tympanist with The Metropolitan Opera Orchestra in Lincoln Center N.Y.. My career Roots are as a youngster playing Jazz clubs in Boston including Storyville as Jazz Vibist / Drums, with Boston Symphony / Pops and in virtually all genres in Music..

I truly do NOT want to appear as a self- indulgent guy but want to qualify myself for discussions in this group..

I am going to make a suggestion to all of you, and I do this with much humilty rather than start talking about Harmonic Overtone Series, Lute Tablatures, Modality, Substitute Chord Progressions etc.etc.. I capitalized the aforementioned few things because they are indeed important as a guide to all Music, whether Jazz or the Classics as there are but 7 diatonic notes and 5 chomatic notes in an Octave not including the tonic note that the leading tone usually resolves too.. You see, this is boring and to analytical..
If you want my personal advice, I'll be glad to share and debate with anyone, but I think the first thing you all should do is go to Ovation TV: Make Life Creative on the internet, or if you get the Ovation TV channel you can find what one and all should watch. What is it Herb?
Watch the entire series called "Howard Goodall's Big Bang" ~ He does away with all the nomenclature / semantics of Music and I guarantee that as I did, thinking I knew virtually all there is to know, so will you learn about how Music came to be and it's development and evolution.. I'm serious guys and gals, you will see how much the technical rudimentary ' stuff ' we all have been taugh / learned / experienced can and will place you and me in a tunnel vision of ' hey, that can't be done '.. Well it can be done, anything can be done if you are open minded and dare to experiment like even the Great Composers..The program about the Piano shows how the ability to finally sustain notes / chords on the Piano was a beggining of the Impressionist Period ~ Ravel, Debussy etc.. The series takes you through the beginning of Musical notation (Greeks did it), development of ' Equal Temperament ' ( how did scales start / develop and get to make an 'A' to be 440, although Symphony Orchestra's is around 444.. Then comes the distance between intervals and their temperament so we have Western Intonation.. It;s not the same in the Far East in some culters and if you have been to Countries on the other side of Planet Earth, you would have more than likely have noticed 1/4 tones if you will..

How did I get onto this Guitar Jazz Forum? A true Musician never ever retires.. He / She quits and goes somewhere to get the next book of life started, and in my case I left the Big Apple and moved to the very top of a Mountain in the Catkills of N.Y., built a house and got on with getting on.
Besides returning to my Jazz Roots, Vibes / Drums and forming a wonderful Jazz Band with real good players / composers, I decided at the age of 70 to learn to play Guitar, buy myself.. I first got a Classical Guitar and after a time of learning those fretfull frets, I just purchased a Jazz Guitar and great Amp. so I can play Jazz Guitar.. Inch by inch I am getting around the finger board and let me tell you that since I know notes, chords et al, I think it's fantastic and I also think that a teacher can hold you back at times.. A teacher, and I taught for years, has His / Her personal ways of playing / teaching and not the flexibily that's possible when you are working it our yourself. Now I know that perhaps not all have a formal training at a Conservatory and even though I have Master's in Music, like Baseball, the Game is played on the field.. I played on many fields..

Okay, so I am learning Classical and Jazz Guitar, and Love Oldies like Tal Farlow,Herb Ellis,Wes Montgomery,Django,Barney Kessel,Charie Christian, but also many of the new Generation like Anthony Wilson, George Benson, Metheny and on and on as each has something to add to the evolution of Jazz..

I will stop now and I hope no one was in anyway offended as I am a newbee I want to have friends..
Any replies will be welcome, so from an aging Dude who Kicks ass and still has the BURN to groove, I will respectfully for now say ~ Later

**hubert54** · 04-19-2009, 03:00 AM

hello Herb

you're over 70?
Glad to have you here.
Lots of experience tho share!
Appreciate any comment about Johann Sebastian Bach and Django...

all the best

**Jazzaluk** · 04-19-2009, 09:53 AM

Welcome Herb!!!

Can't wait to hear your perspective on all things music and jazz.

As a "self-taught" musician, one of the things I like the most about guitar is the process of discovery and the continuous refining of my own "personal theory" of guitar and jazz. Its an unending search for a more robust and eloquent way of viewing music and the mysterious fretboard.

I look forward to hearing about your jazz guitar journey

METOPERARETIRED · 04-19-2009, 12:01 PM

Thanks for your welcomes, and I will be glad to share my experiences with you. It's Sunday AM and I will say something re; Improv & execution of your personal ideas on your Guitars.. Psychocybernetics ( hey Herb,what the hell is that?) is the most comlicated computer in the world, your Brain, actually your mind as it's the mind that is the creative part of the Brain..

Do NOT play something new on your Ax until you go over fingering on both the sounding board as well as in your right hand.. Example of this study.. Two Basketball teams are going to have a game with each other.. One team practices virtually all scenarios of this particular game on the court with a Basketball, while the other team sits daily in a room and are presented with scenarios of the upcoming game.. The team in the classroom virtually always wins the game.. Check it out as it's a fancy word but a basic premise in Medical Studies.. Google the word and read about it..
In Symphony / Opera performing as well as any group performance, when instruments have gaps of silence between entrances, most players, like I always did and do, go over in their / my mind how I am going to ' execute ' my playing when I make my re-entrance into the Composition ~ That's Psychocybernetics and it works very well.. I will not use that word again as I am not an intellectual geek, just a very well taught / trained Pro-Musician.. When I was 17 and entered Conservatory, I was told by my Teacher that in my life of performing or life in general to quote_" Never sound like a Mouse pissing on a blotter ".. For the youngsters out there, an Ink Blotter is what he meant and what he meant by that suggestion was no matter what, always have the courage of your convictions and especially in your playing in front of thousands of people 6 nights a week for many years to come.. God gave us 2 ears and 1 mouth. I guess that means we are supposed to listen twice as much as speak !

Every moment some days you will get NEW ideas in your playing and it might ne while you are walking down the street.. You should understand that everything you are and will play you MUST be able to say.. Whether is a Rythm, as when you walk you are making Rythmic patterns with your feet and you can do counter Rythm with each of your 2 hands/fingers or what have you.. If you can't say it or sing it, more than likely you will have difficulty playing it.. When in contemporary Music virually every measure changes from 3/8 to 5/4 to 7/8 to, well you got the idea, you must have a constant and in most cases it would be the pulse of the eight note that keeps you firm in your playing.. Listen to Stravinski's 'Sacre De Prentemps' aka ' Rite of Spring '.. Yes it is an example of politonic / polyrhytmic Music and as a matter of fact when ot was first performed, audience members as well as critics walked out and put Him and the piece DOWN.. It is considered a Masterpiece for years as is the Music of Ravel, Debussy and beethoven because even Beethoven was considered a radical, farout Composer in his time.. In all the periods of Music new ideas were considered crazy, rediculous and frightening because they were indeed NEW and it is human nature to not make radical changes and all this started with Gregorian Chant !!

I am going down to have some breakfast, but I welcome your questions, ideas or whatever and if there's another group on The Jazz Forum who might ebjoy exchangon knowledge / ideas or debate, bring 'em on as I will never ever be " A Mouse Pissing on a Blotter ! "
Have a great day and " Make every day your Masterpiece !"
Herb

METOPERARETIRED · 04-19-2009, 12:15 PM

Addendum ~ By the way, someone asked if I was 70+ and the answer is you bet I am..

Aging is incredible and when I'm 80, 90, 100, I will still be grooving..
Never put down an older Cat with white hair or whatever as He /She had to get to be older and probably has much to share with YOUNGER members of Humankind.. Herb

**franco6719** · 04-19-2009, 01:41 PM

No, there really are a whole bunch of very serious and fascinating people on these forums though. We should have one giant jam session. (;

**franco6719** · 04-19-2009, 01:47 PM

Aging is incredible and when I'm 80, 90, 100, I will still be grooving--

HAHA!! a true inspiration in fact. Keep going 'till you are 110 and then maybe we will hit the Singularity and you will play forever or the biologists will replace all the worn-put organs and you will be the first jazz CYBORG!!

**wordsmith** · 04-19-2009, 02:26 PM

....I like this kind of stuff, I am not sure why. Maybe because being human is a total mystery, if you are brave enough to think about it. Eyes.....wow! Ears.....wow! Fingers....wow! Brain....wow! I am amazed that most people don't just stay in bed in the mornings, quaking.
Anyway, I believe that a good player just 'gets it'. Once you've got it, you've got it. Try to tell someone what you've 'got', and you find out exactly how mysterious what you've 'got' is.
Like, it's a given thing, but if you look too hard, the 'getting it' becomes even more elusive. Maybe, it's very simple really, and humans enjoy making things complicated.
Please don't shout at me...I'm just a hillbilly looking for a hill.

METOPERARETIRED · 04-20-2009, 12:58 AM

12:30 AM Monday_4-20-2009.. Mistakes? Is this link below a Mistake?
YouTube - Ode To a Ford: FULL

Skeptical about what's real and what's not? What do you think of what you saw if & when you clicked on this link without reading the thoughts of others? Was it real or over dubbed? Would you bet your life on your answer? Is anything really a mistake or does humanity need conform to hypotheticals? Is death a mistake and what if death was caused by self abuse?
Has enough yet and does anyone want to Jam together without being a critic of what another plays? Free Jazz~Is/was free Jazz when you play anynote, anytime, anywhere a mistake? Hell NO, as in 5 Tone Row in the Classics, when one instrument can NOT repeat the same note until every other note in a scale is played, and that applies to every other note as well as every instrument in the composition..

I'd rather ' try something and fail than do nothing and succeed '.. The word 'fail' in there, does that mean mistake?

WORDSMITH wrote ~Never trust in the whims and fancies of late evening..... I reply Bull Merde.. The best recording sessions in my career were at night into the AM hours at the Manhattan center on 34th ST.. A famous recording Center and the Orchestra was very tired from a reahearsal that day and performance that night and then we went down from Lincoln Center to 34th St., and did recordings..
In weeks that were specifically for recordings we started the 1st session at 1PM, broke for Dinner and started the 2nd session at 7 for 3 1/2 hours..

We were then told that we'd be going until 2 to 3 AM.. The money for recording is wonderful as you may know, but overtime 'Union' rates is beyond belief to many..

let's talk about Guitars and Theory and what the Topic de Jour is and keep it lighter, or become a ' CRITIC '.. About critics_Everone needs some kind of job.. Music Performance, doing what you like/ love to do is not a Job..
If you are a performing Musician, making a good living doing what you love to do, you are lucky and Blessed.. Bottom line is to take every gig you are offered as no matter what you are playing and with whom you are playing with, you are getting EXPERIENCE and there is nothing like X-Perience!
Goodnight ~ Herb

**franco6719** · 04-20-2009, 03:47 AM

Originally Posted by METOPERARETIRED

12:30 AM Monday_4-20-2009.. Mistakes? Is this link below a Mistake?
YouTube - Ode To a Ford: FULL

Skeptical about what's real and what's not? What do you think of what you saw if & when you clicked on this link without reading the thoughts of others? Was it real or over dubbed? Would you bet your life on your answer? Is anything really a mistake or does humanity need conform to hypotheticals? Is death a mistake and what if death was caused by self abuse?
Has enough yet and does anyone want to Jam together without being a critic of what another plays? Free Jazz~Is/was free Jazz when you play anynote, anytime, anywhere a mistake? Hell NO, as in 5 Tone Row in the Classics, when one instrument can NOT repeat the same note until every other note in a scale is played, and that applies to every other note as well as every instrument in the composition..

I'd rather ' try something and fail than do nothing and succeed '.. The word 'fail' in there, does that mean mistake?

WORDSMITH wrote ~Never trust in the whims and fancies of late evening..... I reply Bull Merde.. The best recording sessions in my career were at night into the AM hours at the Manhattan center on 34th ST.. A famous recording Center and the Orchestra was very tired from a reahearsal that day and performance that night and then we went down from Lincoln Center to 34th St., and did recordings..
In weeks that were specifically for recordings we started the 1st session at 1PM, broke for Dinner and started the 2nd session at 7 for 3 1/2 hours..

We were then told that we'd be going until 2 to 3 AM.. The money for recording is wonderful as you may know, but overtime 'Union' rates is beyond belief to many..

let's talk about Guitars and Theory and what the Topic de Jour is and keep it lighter, or become a ' CRITIC '.. About critics_Everone needs some kind of job.. Music Performance, doing what you like/ love to do is not a Job..
If you are a performing Musician, making a good living doing what you love to do, you are lucky and Blessed.. Bottom line is to take every gig you are offered as no matter what you are playing and with whom you are playing with, you are getting EXPERIENCE and there is nothing like X-Perience!
Goodnight ~ Herb

Outstanding, Herb. You are the voice of wisdom here. I agree with everything you have said. Let's keep out the critical commentary and share thoughts and info. Music is not a sport. At least, that was NOT the spirit of the thing that I experienced at Berklee and playing around Boston for a few years for very little money, if any. But I don't care about money. I just want to get back to something like that happy period of my life when I was playing with all kinds of different people in the ensemble rooms in all kinds of different contexts. Everyone was having FUN and there were no critics saying "You should solo like this or sound like that..." Period.

And, of course, I was gathering experience playing with people. Better than 10 weeks of practice by oneself.

**hubert54** · 04-20-2009, 05:53 AM

herb, that was an ode of joy to me.
Bach would have shaked his had.

METOPERARETIRED · 04-20-2009, 01:10 PM

In a way Music is a Sport. I'll explain my thoughts about that. In the Major Leagues of Music ( at the top ) one must Bat 100% unlike Major League Baseball where if one bats .290 he is considered a good Athlete and makes a great deal of money. Batting virtually 100% in Major Orchestras or as Jazz/Studio/recording Musician, whatever genre, some of us were and are lucky to make a 6 figure income and we must 'Bat'-'Play' the notes with no errors allowed or someone else will be warming the chair we may occupy, so that is my analogy of Music being in it's own way a Sport (if you will)..

This is for Franco 6719.. Berklee in Boston, which happens to be my Home Town btw.. When did you attend Berklee, formerly The Schillinger School of Music which goes back to the middle 1940s as you would know? Where and with what Guys/Gals did you play with as I am interested? Schillinger is responsible for the method based of musical composition based on mathematical processes. Some of you may or may not be aware of this method.. It is good to check it out I suggest.

Franco ~ Your getting experience was and is the best training.. When I was a student at N.E.C.( New England Conservatory of Music ) I remember at the age of 17 the conductor of the student Orchestra who at that time was Concertmaster of the BSO named Richard Burgin first thing saying to the large Ensemble the following~"Ladies and Gentlemen, I want you to see my Baton with your ears, and I would like your eyes on the Music, but I want your good eye on me !" It took awhile as a youngster to totally understand what he meant, but then we soon would understand.

That in itself would carry me and many of the students who were very successfull in the years after graduating as words well said and used as a tool in making Music..

Music should be Fun.. If it's not, then why do it, as it takes more practice, dedication, commitment, and that's the same as a Job, at least in my 70 years of thinking. Alright I was not thinking like that as a Toddler, but as a young Adult thinking about work and pleasurable making Music was a clear as a Sunny Day..

How about keeping this forum in Music toplical, as we are all here to share this wonderful Art Form no matter what age or background / future?? Okay?? Have a great day,
Herb