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This got posted in another thread, it goes for a half hour. The first thing you hear is about 25 choruses of a student soloing against MR. PC with presumably Metheny comping behind him. After a half dozen or so unconvincing choruses, the student starts to settle into some pretty happening lines, showing a depth of vocab and ways of stitching together his chromatic devices and landing them more often than not. There's also some chance taking and unusual note choices which I think deserved acknowledgement, and maybe encouragement.
Instead, the poor student copped a serve; " Your timing is way off" etc and "harmonically you have a long way to go"....
Now I'm all for a bit of "telling it like it is", but I felt sorry for the student, his time was struggling a little, I thought, due to PM's unnecessarily complicated comping!
Does anyone else like the student's style going on (very boppish chromatic enclosures etc)? A bit of work on the timing and dynamics and I'd safely say I'd prefer to listen to him than much of Metheny's own bag!
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11-09-2014 03:50 AM
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You can't blame metheny for comping that way, the student should be able to hold his own timing. Every musician should have rhythmic independence, that's all to me. I can't see what's wrong with pointing out flaws. We all cop it at some point in our lives and most of the time they are just pointing out weaknesses so that we know what to work on.
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I suppose we'd need to know the nature of the lesson, and I'm all about tough love, but he coulda said something positive, the guy had some good shit going on. I've even been analysing some of it. I like his lines, very Wes / Benson inspired, but has his own sense of flow. When he tightens things up he's gonna be a good player.
Originally Posted by nick1994
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Haha! Well I did wonder about that, but surely it couldn't be. The student has another crack near the end and sounds similar... Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar
I think Metheny solos unaccompanied midway through and, despite the very poor audio, seems to have more attack to the tone, and snappier phrasing than the playing early on. Certainly sounded different to me.
Don't tell me I'm hearing this all wrong!
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Well, I think Pat's half dozen first choruses are pretty convincing, too...
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Pardon the blasphemy, but Metheny is a douche. I don't care how good he is. His attitude is everything I hate about jazz. The ultimate snob. Single-handedly invented smooth jazz, then slams anyone who plays it. And that "harmolodium" thing, or whatever he calls it, is the anti-jazz. Originally Posted by princeplanet
This got posted in another thread, it goes for a half hour. The first thing you hear is about 25 choruses of a student soloing against MR. PC with presumably Metheny comping behind him. After a half dozen or so unconvincing choruses, the student starts to settle into some pretty happening lines, showing a depth of vocab and ways of stitching together his chromatic devices and landing them more often than not. There's also some chance taking and unusual note choices which I think deserved acknowledgement, and maybe encouragement.
Instead, the poor student copped a serve; " Your timing is way off" etc and "harmonically you have a long way to go"....
Now I'm all for a bit of "telling it like it is", but I felt sorry for the student, his time was struggling a little, I thought, due to PM's unnecessarily complicated comping!
Does anyone else like the student's style going on (very boppish chromatic enclosures etc)? A bit of work on the timing and dynamics and I'd safely say I'd prefer to listen to him than much of Metheny's own bag!
Go ahead everyone. Fire away.
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Wow, OK, yeah, I hear the changeover, pretty obvious actually... (when and where is this from anyway?)
Hmmm, so if that's PM soloing, then that raises a problem for me, see, I'd never really connected with PM's playing before, so I'd have to re-evaluate my stance on Metheny. On which of his records does he play like that? ! ( I was just about to start asking about who the "student" was! - and if he had any records out by now!)
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I meant the soloing in the first minute, which sounds decidedly inferior... Originally Posted by Gearhead
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Prince...all of them. Seriously. Have you ever listened to a Pat Metheny record? He's playing totally stock stuff that he uses in tons of his solos. Seems like you're getting turned off by the arrangements on the Metheny group records and not listening to the solos. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Go get 80/81, 99>00, and you'll be a happy man.
Also, the student on that first chorus that gets clipped is really brutal. Maybe Pat is overly harsh, I don't know, but his time really is bad. Pat's not dissing him on a public forum, he's coaching him in a private lesson.
This is a very funny thread.
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Well yeah, it's hilarious that I thought Metheny was the student and vice versa to begin with, and funnier still that people are commenting on how the student deserves the harsh words, when I was suggesting that the soloist deserved a few encouraging ones! The comping is just downright unmusical, and here's me thinking it's Metheny comping like a wise guy, trying to throw off the talented soloist showing him up! I was warming up to having a go at Metheny for clipping the kid for his bad time when the comping itself was abysmal. My bad, sorry everyone! Originally Posted by ecj
So we're quite sure the comping from 1.00 to 5.30 is not Metheny? Cool, now I can safely say that comping sucks arse!
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PP: the entire lesson, including the student's lengthy meandering solo, was once floating around in cyberspace. You might be able to find it. You'll hear that metheny's comments are spot on. Originally Posted by princeplanet
As far as Metheny goes, now might be a good time for you to give him another chance ;-). I found the easiest "gateway" to Metheny for a jazz purist is the duet record with Jim Hall.
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Oh, I see, so there's more? Hmm, I'm not sure I wanna hear the student's solo in that case, may give it a miss.... Originally Posted by pkirk
As for the PM/Hall record, I thought there was a lot of "free" improv on that one. I wanna hear more of the hard bop blues infused PM like on the bootleg, with that fat tone!
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Go buy Trio 99/00. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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Metheny starts soloing around 1:00. I can't before that. But that's definitely Metheny. His style is obvious.
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Just listening now, although I like it a little more than Q and A, there's still that over compressed tone that still sounds too undynamic for my taste. The drummer, as good as he is, can get distracting (think young Tony Williams). PM's lines are incredibly complex (not to mention his harmonic sense), but it still leaves feeling the same way I do when I hear guys like Chris Potter, "Wow, I've just heard the most amazing playing ever- so how come it just does go into my body?" ... Originally Posted by ecj
Maybe, he has a different bag to pull from with minor blues, or maybe his guitar in the bootleg sounds more raw and dynamic (you can hear the acoustic string attack!), but there is something about the playing on that bootleg that I find really special. It's like hearing Django's raw live electric recordings, or CC at Minton's, or Wes live in '65. There's this exciting thing going on.
Or maybe it isn't Metheny!
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Maybe try his side-man stuff? Check him out on Joshua Redman's "Wish". Originally Posted by princeplanet
Just listening now, although I like it a little more than Q and A, there's still that over compressed tone that still sounds too undynamic for my taste. The drummer, as good as he is, can get distracting (think young Tony Williams). PM's lines are incredibly complex (not to mention his harmonic sense), but it still leaves feeling the same way I do when I hear guys like Chris Potter, "Wow, I've just heard the most amazing playing ever- so how come it just does go into my body?" ...
Maybe, he has a different bag to pull from with minor blues, or maybe his guitar in the bootleg sounds more raw and dynamic (you can hear the acoustic string attack!), but there is something about the playing on that bootleg that I find really special. It's like hearing Django's raw live electric recordings, or CC at Minton's, or Wes live in '65. There's this exciting thing going on.
Or maybe it isn't Metheny!
I love Metheny in all his incarnations, so I'm not sure I can identify. He always sounds like he's searching for a profound emotional impact when he solos, and his vocabulary is among the best ever developed for the guitar.
I'd put him up there with Django, CC, Wes, and Benson in terms of his musicality and impact on the instrument.
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I don't know what to say. Criticizing the drummer by saying he reminds you of Tony Williams? For my money Tony WAS the essential ingredient to the 2nd Miles Quintet. Too complex? I think PM is brilliant. Might not like his style but jazz, after a certain point is all about style. And there's something to be gleaned from every master regardless of style. PM is without question a master.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 11-09-2014 at 03:18 PM. Reason: typo
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Metheny not only has heavily develoed harmonic and rhythmic language but he's also got in my opinion one of the most refined tones I've ever heard
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Metheny is certainly a master but he is also overly deified by some. I thought that some of the things he criticized in the student's playing also occur in his own playing at times on various audience recordings.
No player is perfect and I suspect that sitting across from Pat Freaking Metheny for a lesson would be more than a little nerve wracking. I know that my chops go out the window when I am in a lesson with a good professional jazz musician due to self-consciousness. I am more than willing to cut the guy some slack.
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Metheny's the only guitar player whose influence can be felt across jazz...regardless of instrument. That cannot be underestimated.
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Metheny's influence as both guitarist and composer is enormous. Those at the top are always being sniped at, look at all the crap Wes got for making records that sold. And, like it or not, it takes enormous cojones to do a project like Orchestrion, and he's proven his level and bona fides with Brecker, Hall, deJohnnette, Herbie, and on and on and on. Not everyone has to like everything, but anyone should be able to tell a master when he hears one.
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Heck, I'd say he's a cleverer guitarist than all the above, technically and harmonically more advanced, you name it. But not one of his studio recordings have ever "gone into my body"... No amount of trying will alter that, period. But this bootleg at the top of this thread, I've never heard PM sound so, well, "cool"... Originally Posted by ecj
Hey, It's not ground breaking or technically amazing and he's probably just regurgitating "Wes"isms and doesn't think that this kind of playing warrants committing to recordings. But the more I hear this, the more it's becoming my favourite 20 choruses of C minor blues, and I don't care who played it!
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For me Metheny represents the most important modern guitarist. He single handedly changed the role of modern jazz guitar in the 70s. Bright Size Life changed everything for me. Nothing like it. His group records and compositions like First Circle are brilliant to me. Secret Story, Antonia, The Bat, James, So It May Secretly Begin, Better Days. The guy is great.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 11-10-2014 at 12:00 AM.
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That's the huge thing...pat didn't just influence the way people played, he influenced the way people WROTE. Name another guitarist who has that as their legacy...
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Just another of my personal gripes, but seems to me that that after Tony Williams came along, most drummers felt that being "just a time keeper" was suddenly way too boring. Those early post bop years are some of my favourite, but there are times when I wish the Producer in those sessions would have asked the drummer to just "get the f*ck outta the way, man!"... Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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