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Hey Henry, do you know of any studio recorded minor blues tunes PM has done? Would be interesting to compare.
Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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11-10-2014 12:08 AM
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He did a lot. I'd have to look. The Brecker record with Elvin and Goldstien (?) on organ? So it May Secretly Begin is a minor with a twist. You need to some major PM research here. You disappoint me.
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Try Googling Pat Metheny discography. Much of his really good work is as a sideman. Quite frankly as far as that lesson video goes, the guy paid for a lesson with Metheny. If I took a lesson with him I'd be pissed off if he laid some undeserved platitudes on me instead of telling me what he really thought. What's the point? If you want to hear nice things about your playing ask your wife or girlfriend. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Sorry that's kinda harsh but lets get real. And the guy's time is AWFUL.
Last edited by Flyin' Brian; 11-10-2014 at 01:34 AM.
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Hehe, well, coming on here and asking you guys is part of my research! Originally Posted by henryrobinett
He did a lot. I'd have to look. The Brecker record with Elvin and Goldstien (?) on organ? So it May Secretly Begin is a minor with a twist. You need to some major PM research here. You disappoint me.
@ Flyin' Brian - good clips, the ATTYA is quite astonishing, well, they all are actually...
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I first saw PM before he put out his first album. He was playing with Gary Burton. They were on the bill with Ralph Towner and Oregon. Mick Goodrick was also with Burton as was Swallow and Eberhard Weber. PM blew my mind that night. He was the star of the evening. In another month or two Bright Size Life would come out also introducing Jaco. It's hard to describe what fresh air that blew. The guitar world was all McLaughlin and DiMeola. Faster faster and no finesse.
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I just saw pat last month with his unity group, he played all the things with chris potter as duet, it was one of the best performances I've seen. He has the ability to deconstruct the tune to point where it's barely recognisable but you'd really have to know the tune to try and follow.
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Personally, what I don't like about Pat's soloing is that it's not clearly infused with the jazz tradition. And yes, that is also what makes him so unique. He's not your typical jazz guitar player, and I really try to appreciate his soloing for what it is, but most of the time it doesn't do it for me.
On the other hand I really love some of his compositions. He's a real master composer... how could he come up with Bright Size Life when he was only 20 years old ? That's mind blowing. Such sophisticated harmonies, with a real sense of taste that just shows how mature he was musically, despite his young age.
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McLaughlin too... though I am not a fan.Metheny's the only guitar player whose influence can be felt across jazz...regardless of instrument. That cannot be underestimated.
As per Metheny - all truth what was said above regarding his craft, vocabulary, influence and importance...
but whenever I listen to him he sounds to me like pretension of depth instead of actual depth.
This is probably his general aethetic concept that is strange to me...
Charlie Haden called it 'american impressionism' i think, this is really very american to me and reminds me paintings of Wyatt or Hopper, music of Glass ... this feel of empty spaces, empty cities, people lost in empltiness... vague, pale, passions are soft, energy is light... impersonal, less Me, more of Something Other...
in Haden's records I can hear this feel also, but Haden has more tension in general than Metheny he is much more cocentrated, closer to Jim Hall in that concern than to Metheny.
But this is just not for me... i like direct power, passion and energy of old jazz, of Faulkner and Whitman where life is full over the brim... all Me
I appreciate what PM did anyway, and learn much from him.
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Producers didn't do that for jazz recordings then. They just got everyone together, made sure they were rehearsed and paid. Agreed on material. They never works have had the balls to tell Tony what to play, or anyone. Originally Posted by princeplanet
Just another of my personal gripes, but seems to me that that after Tony Williams came along, most drummers felt that being "just a time keeper" was suddenly way too boring. Those early post bop years are some of my favourite, but there are times when I wish the Producer in those sessions would have asked the drummer to just "get the f*ck outta the way, man!"...
The time for the drummer being merely a time keeper went out with the swing era. Where have you been?Last edited by henryrobinett; 11-10-2014 at 07:18 AM. Reason: typos
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"Equinox" on the Kenny Garrett Coltrane homage record
"Meditation" duo with Mick Goodrick on youtube.
Although they don't have TW on the drums you'll probably dig it anyways
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Well. I gotta apologise for this thread, for those who didn't bother to read through, I thought Metheny's solo b/n 1.00 and 5.30 was actually being played by the "student", and thought that Metheny's criticisms of the student's playing was out of line. Turns out that the soloist was actually Metheny (doh!), so the whole thread became redundant, except for me wanting to know where I could find more playing from Metheny in the style of this "lesson".
Now of course the thread seems to be inviting both support and critiques of PM generally, which I find surprising. I mean, PM is a giant of Jazz guitar, who hardly needs acknowledgement (20 Grammy's fer chrissakes!!). Then again there always seem to be a coupla detractors who feel compelled to chime in with how they don't really "get" Metheny (I'm one from this camp, admittedly). So here's the thing, we agree he's up there with the other titans, CC, Django, Wes, Benson.... but these players do not draw the same passionate objections that PM seems to. You gotta wonder why.
Actually, come to think of it, he's not he only jazz guitar giant that draws division amongst us players, Joe Pass and (to a lesser extent ?) Grant Green cop it too. Yet how come there are no Wes haters?
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I really like Metheny's music, whether you want to call it jazz or not.
A couple of years ago, I went to Vegas on a golf trip and was lucky enough to grab a window seat on a flight that chased the sunrise across the USA. As I looked down on a constantly-changing landscape, from islands and forests, across lakes, past cities, onto farmlands and vast open spaces, I thought to myself that Pat was the only musician I know who could provide the soundtrack to all of that. I hear as much Prairie as City Street in his playing. Hey, I guess that you are what you is, quote/unquote.
As for lessons - the workshop band to which I belong had a guest session with the singer Anita Wardell on Saturday. She is a talented singer and a great musician whose instrument is her voice. She is also not afraid to tell is like it is (being brought up in Australia will of course help with this
) However, it is what we all need, proper feedback from someone who is working at a higher level. And as others have said, maybe that's just what Metheny was doing on this lesson.
Certainly, I was inspired to work harder on the fault that she identified, rather than sitting in a corner and sulking.
Oh and as if to close the circle - the first track on Anita's latest CD is a vocal version of PM's "Travels". Synchronicity or what?
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Good call, yeah, PM on a minor blues, some nice lines but still not cutting loose like in the bootleg. I suppose coming in after KG is a pretty tough gig! Originally Posted by yaclaus
"Equinox" on the Kenny Garrett Coltrane homage record
"Meditation" duo with Mick Goodrick on youtube.
Although they don't have TW on the drums you'll probably dig it anyways
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My opinion: everything that Pat said to the student was dead solid. It was told in private lesson so harshness did not bothered me. I think he pulled out his bag and showed a piece of it in his solos. I recognize almost every lick he played in his other solos, only now they were glued together so it sounds like 'new' Metheny, but it isn't. It was old Pat. Also, guy was comping pretty badly so Pat had to hold the piece together while he was soloing and still he accomplish to show in his solos the basics that we all must know (chord tone soloing, arpeggios, rhythm...). This lessons are of the greates value to me because they reminded me of the "whole system" when solo (and comp, pats comping here is fantastic too, another lesson that he didn't talk about but it is worth analysing). That guy (with us together) should be very thankful to Pat.
On Pats influence: first if all, I font agree that he was not influenced by "old jazz". O yes he was, deeply - he uses the same formulas but just another ingredients. For example: when we learn embellishments we tend to use licks that we might heard from players before us - guess what he uses the same "laws" but only his own deeply personalized licks that we all can hear in his solos. That's his signature. And he also speaks of influence of Coltrane, Wes (in one interview he mentioned that he new all of Wes solos), Sonny etc. Now, pat is changed a lot trough his career. His first albums were really refreshments with new approaches. Try listening to some Sonny Rollins, Jim Hall and Tonhino Horta albums and then Pats. Wonderful. Now his finding totally new ways. He is total master of all situations (orchestrion, unity band, solo albums, trios, unity band, pmg, with brecker, garreth, burton, redman etc, omages, stars bands...) - in all theese situations he is still original, recognizable, very usefull and I think very inseparable to other musicians.
Living in a time of Metheny and Benson (and others) is.... lack of words in the end of post.
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Actually, come to think of it, he's not he only jazz guitar giant that draws division amongst us players, Joe Pass and (to a lesser extent ?) Grant Green cop it too. Yet how come there are no Wes haters?
Because Wes is just out there to tell a story, Lester Young of guitar... the most important thing about it is not that it is simple or complex... but that it is always true... as with any great story-teller.
He starts from the point which is beyond doubt for me... with any other player I need some way to go with him to be convinced.. but with Wes from the first note I all his.
Only Django and Charlie Christian have the same quality to me among jazz guitarist...
Grant Green and George Benson can do it but not always...
I think it is conected with tradition... the more I am in it the more I feel that jazz up to bop is one tradition - naturally born out of certain social background - out of certain time and place... and those guys they were great talents in a proper place...
I do not say that those who came later were worse but they just had to invent something, to adopt themselves or traditions for themselves, that makes distance... and disctance is always some way to go for me as listener too...Last edited by Jonah; 11-10-2014 at 09:13 AM.
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Often techical issues, creativity, vocabulary are mixed with aesthetics... though first is needed to give life to the last ... they are still two different things...Now of course the thread seems to be inviting both support and critiques of PM generally, which I find surprising. I mean, PM is a giant of Jazz guitar, who hardly needs acknowledgement (20 Grammy's fer chrissakes!!). Then again there always seem to be a coupla detractors who feel compelled to chime in with how they don't really "get" Metheny (I'm one from this camp, admittedly). So here's the thing, we agree he's up there with the other titans, CC, Django, Wes, Benson.... but these players do not draw the same passionate objections that PM seems to. You gotta wonder why.
That is not that I do no t appreciate all the qualities of PM, just what he is saying with his music is not interesting to me, is not close - it is some other world.. and I see no problem with that
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Finally had a chance to listen to the whole thing...do people really think Pat was harsh? Geez, I owe my students an apology if so...
Man, there's some awesome nuggets in there...I could listen to Pat talk about music all day.
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No argument from me that Metheny is one of the best of the best - however PP, regarding not feeling PM's playing in a 'body way' I think it might be because he almost always plays really fast - like he's one of those furry little mammals that always scurries from A to B - he never ambles. Even slow or mid-tempo tunes, he's often playing double-time ideas or dancing around the beat in a really high energy way. Cool if you dig that style, but it can be a bit full-on if you want to just hang back and enjoy the groove for groove's sake. Total opposite to Sco (his contemporary) in that regard - Sco just sits in with what the rhythm section is doing, whereas Metheny prefers to dance on top of it instead of 'in it'. Originally Posted by princeplanet
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I can understand, however, why a listener's ears can "tire" of the relentlessness of Metheny's attack and guitar tone, the latter especially with the chorusing and other processing. Sometimes I really would like to hear him lay into a ballad. Now I transcribed or worked on all the tunes off Beyond the Missouri Sky, so I know he can play ballads. Now that I think of it, I liked the tone on that CD more than some of his other efforts.
Jay
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I think it was mainly me that started out saying that, but you should realise that I had it wrong - I thought the student was doing the amazing soloing! - Not PM, see, I thought it was PM doing the lousy comping then criticising the soloing for being lousy... Apparently theres a lot of the lesson missing where the student solos badly, maybe the student edited that bit out... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I can hear a pretty sharp edit about a minute in, right before the lead tone changes and Pat gets burning... Originally Posted by princeplanet
I just thought Pat was actually pretty gentle in his delivery.
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You'd probably dig "Is this America?" on Day Trip too...or "One Quiet Night." Or his recent solo disc whose name escapes me... Originally Posted by targuit
As for chorus, Pat really hasn't played with the multiple delays "chorused" sound since the early 90's. His tone has gotten progressively darker, and now it appears he's been mixing in a bit of acoustic tone with his electric as of the past 5-6 years or so...
But he really hasn't recorded with that chorused tone in over 20 years.
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I don't know, Jeff. Since Metheny has the same haircut since the Seventies, it is hard to date some of his stuff on YT.
I got a little tired of the chorused sound.
I have not bought a Metheny CD after Speaking Of Now.
Jay
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I could be wrong but I always assumed Pat starts soloing at 1:03.
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Just a quick thing back to the main idea in the thread. I thought Pat was certainly critical but gracious and reasonable. I've gotten a lesson or two with some heavy guys and have been slammed WAY harder than that and invariably deserved it. Pat was to the point and went straight to very practical suggestions for improvement. Good lesson. This is interesting because there's been a lot discussion about tough love lately and to hear Pats remarks referred to as such is pretty surprising to me. Gets me a better reference point for what "thought love" can me to others.
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