The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 45678 ... LastLast
Posts 126 to 150 of 270
  1. #126

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    I agree with Mark Stefani that Martino's activities are not typical ii-V lines. That's just not what they are. But one thing you can do with them is use them for bridges (--two measures of D7? An Am7 activity would work, and if you can double time it, people will go, "whoa, this dude is smokin'!"). Also, there are times where one can "generalize." "All of Me" starts with two measures of C6---an Am7 activity works well there. And so on. A lot of swing-era soloing treats the A section of rhythm tunes as just the I chord. (Charlie Christian did that sometimes.)


    I don't have the Baker book yet. Could you say a bit more about it, Colin?
    I agree on the PM stuff Mark. there is some good stuff there that will be useful. I'm still going to work through it slowly but I don't think I'm going to focus so much time on it now - I think I'll just take it slow.

    The Baker book looks great to me. The meat of it consists of page after page of ii V licks. The good part is that it takes a lick and then shows about ten or fifteen more that start with the same line in the first bar then changes what happens in the next bar. For me that's great. You can then just learn the first bar and do your own thing in the next bar but it still makes sense.

    The first part starts the lick on the 1 then later starts licks on the 3 then 5 then 7 then 9 and so on. Again it groups them in terms of licks that start the same way which I really think is about the most perfect way to learn licks. I mean, do ten of his licks starting with the same first bar and it really makes it easy to come up with another ten.

    You could spend a lot of time just playing licks out of this book and never run out.

    There are sooooo many licks.

    Did I mention that there are a lot of licks?

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #127

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    You could spend a lot of time just playing licks out of this book and never run out.

    There are sooooo many licks.

    Did I mention that there are a lot of licks?
    Sounds good, provided they are good licks! Which I assume they are... I've got to get that book....

  4. #128

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO
    You could spend a lot of time just playing licks out of this book and never run out.
    Great post, Colin! You described the essence of the book very well, especially regarding the IIm7 themes and variations. I had mentioned earlier a lesson I published in Jazz Improv magazine several years ago. In it I laid out a dozen themes for the IIm7 chord, followed by 36 mix 'n match options for the V7 chord, broken down into 12 inside, 12 outside, and 12 blues licks. All told and if you do the math, there are hundreds of powerful II-V's that can be created from that one lesson alone, and the purpose was to get improvisers to make these decisions on the fly during the course of a solo.

    With that in mind, take a look at this 8-bar bridge excerpt from my Unit 7 solo (1st chorus) that I just shared with you guys:

    Linear Expressions by Pat Martino-bridgelicks-jpg

    The first lick begins on the the 4th (G) of the Dm7 chord and is a very Martino-like inside move. Note how it resolves to the 1st (E) of the Em7 chord, starting another II-V that is outside due to the Bb (b9) over the A7 and has Bird written all over it. Next is a II-V right out of the Oscar Peterson playbook, beginning on the 3rd (F) of the Dm7 chord with a classic C major blues move over the G7 chord. Even though there are quick changes in the last two bars, check out the simple C minor blues lick that caps off the bridge.

    In closing, thanks to all of you for the kind words regarding my spin on Jeannine, and it's really gratifying to see you guys taking a step back in understanding the events that led up to Martino's eventual evolution in Linear Expressions. If you do what he and others did in learning the language, your success as a jazz improviser is a foregone conclusion.

  5. #129

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
    In closing, thanks to all of you for the kind words regarding my spin on Jeannine, and it's really gratifying to see you guys taking a step back in understanding the events that led up to Martino's eventual evolution in Linear Expressions. If you do what he and others did in learning the language, your success as a jazz improviser is a foregone conclusion.
    That's certainly an inspiring thought for a Monday morning! (Perhaps you posted it last night but I'm reading it Monday morning.)

    I realize I have spread myself too thin, practicing too many things rather than focusing on smaller number and REALLY getting them down, and finding a way to use them in tunes.

    It's not like I never heard that advice before, but somehow, I wasn't listening.... Doh!

  6. #130

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    OK, I had a free half hour - here's my video of the five activities played slowly. I then played them a little more up tempo, and spliced them in, as you will see. Hopefully this might help someone here.

    Nice, good clean playing, I've been on holiday for a few weeks, but I'll be getting back to practicing "Activity 1" this week, Hopefully I'll have it memorised, so I can see/hear all the notes in my mind.

  7. #131

    User Info Menu

    Wow, cool thread... I'm around for a while, looks fun.

    Just some thoughts on Martino's minor conversion and basically any other similar approach... which is very common harmonic concept. You have a reference and then create a relationship... then develop the relationship.

    There are different methods of creating guideline for creating the relationships, the simplest being diatonic functional subs.
    Example, Cmaj. is the basic reference, functioning as a I chord using maj/min functional harmony guidelines, keeping it very straight and simple.

    Conversion to Amin... or creating a relationship with the original Cmaj7 chord by using basic modal interchange or using Relative minor... conversion... and then developing that relationship with reference to the original reference, "Cmaj7".

    So the differences begin to show up when you create new relationships with the new tonal target, "A-7". The guidelines you use can reflect either the original reference "Cmaj" or the new reference, "A-7".

    That means... how you control the new relationships, what are the rest of the notes implied when using Subs, Chord patterns etc...do they have reference to Cma7 or has the the new tonal target become the new tonal center. Which generally stretches the relationships with the original Cmaj7. Not so much with the basic chord tones the only difference is the B and A, but with the new relationships. With actual chord progressions, this concept becomes a little more complicated, but only because of more choices, the basic principle remains the same, just more levels of application.

    I read Mark mention using the relationship of relevant II-7 chord, which is the same concept. Using the starting reference, again could be Cmaj7, and creating a relationship. There are choices, the II chord is generally just the upper extensions of the I chord in most tonal systems. So you can simply create relationships with, in this example, D-7, the II-7 chord, relationships are simply applying some form of organized additional note(s), chord(s), melodic applications etc..

    Adding or changing the basic reference, in this example the Cmaj7 chord.

    Relationships in jazz generally don't always stay straight tonally or functionally. (Function is just the motor that makes music move). Generally we also use different modal concepts within those new relationships, the modal part is which note(s) control the functional aspects.

    And we tend to pull or open Melodic minor and use Blue notes and extensive use of modal interchange, Modal interchange is somewhat like dropping different melodic or scale patterns on the same Root note. Modal Interchange from Cmaj7 to C-7, Go from C Ionian to C aeolian or C dorian. There are guideline for usage, which just means reasons or rules which control the change from C ionian to C dorian. The organization of the application.

    Another simple application... Mark posted a great example of Unit 7... anyway, when playing over the "A" section, which is basically just a 12 bar blues, You could use either C7 or G-7 as your basic reference to create relationships and then develop. So you could improve with reference to C7 and take it or develop etc.. or you could improve with reference to G-7 and develop from that reference. The differences begin to show up after new relationships. I'll try and post an example of how using different reference develop differently down the line etc..

    Anyway cool thread... Reg
    Last edited by Reg; 09-24-2014 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #132

    User Info Menu

    Good one, Reg. Looking forward to more from you.

  9. #133

    User Info Menu

    Hello guys,

    How is it going ? As the thread seems to be in standby, I suppose/hope everyone is working hard.

    I passed through Phase I and II for a quite while and can play the activities comfortably without looking at the book.

    But Phase III cooled me off. I am feeling like I have to start all over again. The phrases are quite different to the previous ones (again) and it is like I have to memorize all the line studies as if I did not work through the previous activities.

    What about you ? Is it worthy to continue ? (In any case, I will use it as a sight reading exercise)


  10. #134

    User Info Menu

    I've stopped doing them as I have a few gigs with a singer, and I have a mountain of songs to learn. But I was also beginning to question how to use these lines. I'm still not sure how we might use them, so was hoping some of you would keep going and maybe upload some sound files or videos for contextual purposes.

  11. #135

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
    (...) so was hoping some of you would keep going and maybe upload some sound files or videos for contextual purposes.
    Waiting for it too

  12. #136

    User Info Menu

    I'm just starting Phase II soon.

  13. #137

    User Info Menu

    I'm still playing\hearing "Activity 1", I'm trying to assimilate the lines, so they naturally occur in my playing style, until that happens, I'm not moving onto "Activity 2".

  14. #138

    User Info Menu

    I never got much past Phase II, I enjoyed playing the activities but none of it emerged in my playing.

    The "activities" are 4-5 bars long, strings of bebop phrases based on minor chord shapes and scale fragments. In the book these are related to the inversions of the m7 chord. Phase 1 shows five activities in Gm and before moving to Phase II you should practise the activities in all 12 keys by moving the shape up and down. Phase II shows the five activities (slightly altered) but this time stay in the same position and move through the 12 keys chromatically.

    So that's all hopefully a neat way of learning the fretboard and getting some bebop lines under your fingers.

    Phase III uses the activities to create "line studies" over chord progressions i.e. for a chromatic chord progression use 2 bars of a Gm activity then switch to two bars of the Abm activity etc. Again the activities are altered from how they first appeared. The lines are notated in full for each activity over two different progressions - one chromatic, one that ascends in minor thirds. I think it would be a good exercise to do the same on any progression e.g. circle of fifths. In fact at the end of Phase III there is an exercise, to complete the two line studies based on the fifth activity. It will be interesting, when we get there, to see how different people complete the line study - I suspect there may be more than one answer!

    Phase IV discusses some of the possibilities for substituting different chords with a minor chord, in order to then use the activities learned in the previous phases to improvise over any chord progression. Any song can be reduced to a series of minor chords. There is a worked example, a tune called Nadine by Pat Martino. I haven't studied this at all - I think though that I would have preferred to see a worked example of a jazz standard.

    I'm not playing much jazz at the moment but will definitely return to this book when I do, it requires a lot of effort but seems to be promising some shortcuts to being able to improvise over any chord changes. Look forward to seeing how others get on with this thread!

  15. #139

    User Info Menu

    Nice summary Mike. Thx very much. I had looked ahead only briefly, but it sounds like it might have some interesting results. At very least it should improve the ear and add to harmonic knowledge. I'm still hanging in with this, though I started taking Skype lessons. But every time I practice I try to address this book. I don't think I have ever fully worked through a book, and that in itself is motivation for me to continue. I hope that when I look at this thread in a few months that I've stuck with it and progressed further through the material.

  16. #140

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by srlank
    Nice summary Mike. Thx very much. I had looked ahead only briefly, but it sounds like it might have some interesting results. At very least it should improve the ear and add to harmonic knowledge. I'm still hanging in with this, though I started taking Skype lessons. But every time I practice I try to address this book. I don't think I have ever fully worked through a book, and that in itself is motivation for me to continue. I hope that when I look at this thread in a few months that I've stuck with it and progressed further through the material.
    That could be a great topic for a MarkRhodes poll how many books have people actually worked thru cover to cover. I know new book syndrome kicks in for me and I've probably only completed 2 or 3 over the years.

  17. #141

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    That could be a great topic for a MarkRhodes poll how many books have people actually worked thru cover to cover. I know new book syndrome kicks in for me and I've probably only completed 2 or 3 over the years.
    Great idea docbop. �� Ratio of how many bought to completed. LOL. Or percentage of each book, etc.

    And if I ever make it through this one, I definitely have a couple in mind to try and tackle next. Would be very cool indeed!

  18. #142

    User Info Menu

    One day [er.... book] at a time people.

    "My name is Moonray and I'm a guitar bookaholic."

    But this one is something special I reckon.

    When you get to Phase III you get the biggest pay off.
    .....and that is, an insight on how Pat changes [pivots, I think he would refer to it]
    from one chord to another while maintaining a long unbroken line of 8ths.

    For instance, take a look at Line Study 1A where he exits from Gm7 [bars 1&2] via an arpeggio based
    figure on the last 2 beats ...Bb C D F and lands on Eb to continue on his way on the Abm7. [There's an enclosure
    right there ....but I bet he just played it naturally]
    Do that with each change throughout the Line studies and observe how he make each transition seamlessly ....
    .....record the changes on a looper or whatever play the Line Studies over them and marvel.

    I realized that aside from the wonderful lines twisting and turning under the fingers, that it was
    possible to hear the changes as each one arose.
    I set myself to work on being able to be able to move/pivot from any one chord to any other chord
    while keeping in motion.

    A work still in progress I might add.
    But I've only been working on it for around 10 years....I'm not kidding.

    The first thing I did [after learning the first two Phases, was to write out each of the 5 forms as they appeared in
    the studies of Phase III and group them by form and transpose them all to Gm7 and then on to all keys.
    Then I got a handle on how each line was basically like in Phase I but with little variants.

    To this day I play the Phase III Line Studies [A & B progressions] every day as a warm up.
    Beats scale and arpeggios any day.

    ....And another thing I did that was a great help was, I took a deep breath and transposed Phase III to all 12 keys.
    On the guitar, not writing them out, calling out the chord names as I went....just like learning the changes to a song.
    The A form is easy ....root movement is ascending chromatically.
    The B form is a bit gnarly...up a minor third- down a half step etc but with a rogue up a whole step-down a half step
    that crops up twice and you have to be on your game to catch them.
    Specially when you're in a transposed version.

    So there's much to be gleaned from this great piece of jazz guitar literature.
    And you won't become a Pat clone [even if wanted to] because the same principles of
    voice leading changes on the fly frees the mind and fingers and over time you do your own thing.
    I don't even listen to Pat much these days, but I do have all his available records and am eternally
    grateful for his inspiration, and this book.

    And back on the unfinished book syndrome mentioned further up the thread, I remember
    a saying that Kenny Burrell came up with in an extensive interview in Guitar Player 20 or more
    years ago......."nothing wrong with learning some thing from a book, but for every book you read, you
    should write one of your own"
    Hmmmmm......that's a big call.....but I have pretty much done that with this one.

    Meantime.....there's a lot of culling out of unfinished books etc to do in my music room.

    Time is of the essence.

  19. #143

    User Info Menu

    If anyone is interested...Pick a few tunes and I'll give examples of converting to minor references. I'll also try and explain the source and organization of relationship which is used for conversions... there are a few. I'll try and make as black and white as possible... and sloooow.

    I'm sure I'll screw a few things up... but should help understand application of concept.

  20. #144

    User Info Menu

    Thanks for the offer, Reg. I'll pick a couple tunes.

    1) All Of Me. Old and simple but people really like it. Not many chords, though, so a modern player wonder, 'what do I do for two bars of C6???'

    2) Autumn Leaves. Everyone seems to learn this one early on and yet many pros still enjoy playing it.

  21. #145

    User Info Menu

    Thx Reg,
    Any tunes would be great. It might be interesting to see how to approach this in songs that have quick changes, such as rhythm changes for example or tunes that have one bar with a ii V and then the next bar is a I /i chord....not much time on each chord type. Another example is tunes that start with one bar of a maj7 chord and then the very next bar is a VI7 chord, like 'Back Home in Indiana.' Although perhaps this material is not intended for these sorts of quick changes, which in that case it be nice to clarify.

    I think one thing that is interesting in terms of minor conversion, is that the "Activities" use melodic minor, so for example when you use an A minor phrase over a C major chord, you get both #5 and #4. I find this sometimes tricky to make work, at least in terms of using the lines from "The Activities." It would be interesting to see a transcription byPM to see how this sound work. Personally, I've worked with improvising with #5 sounds, but I mostly made it work by using arpeggios such as maj7 #5 or targeting specifically the #5. I find PM's lines trickier to make work the way he is running it sort of scalar-like. Not sure if any of that made sense. But those area couple of points that confuse me.
    Last edited by srlank; 10-02-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  22. #146

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Moonray
    When you get to Phase III you get the biggest pay off.
    .....and that is, an insight on how Pat changes [pivots, I think he would refer to it]
    from one chord to another while maintaining a long unbroken line of 8ths.
    Thank you for your post, that's great to hear about the payoffs from phase III! The book does seem to have some excellent material, but is not very clear about the objectives or how they will be achieved - it is a bit of an act of faith that if you work through it "something good" will happen near the end.

  23. #147

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Floorstand
    The book does seem to have some excellent material, but is not very clear about the objectives or how they will be achieved - it is a bit of an act of faith that if you work through it "something good" will happen near the end.
    Mike, that's why working through LE and the activities without understanding Pat's earlier work and what led up to it is indeed an "act of faith." If you don't do the homework that he did to acquire the language it's a waste of time, because you're putting the cart before the horse.

    This is precisely why I recommended the D. Baker book in an earlier post, because the knowledge of II-V's is a critical part of Martino's foundation, just as it was for any other skilled jazz improviser regardless of the instrument played. An advanced concept means little without the substance, and if you have that substance than "something good" will indeed happen in a big way.

    If you take the time to listen carefully to Pat's earlier work with Don Patterson, Eric Kloss, Willis Jackson, Jack McDuff and others you'll hear exactly what I'm talking about, because he was using classic jazz clichés that he had learned by ear, with little or no evidence of scale-based thinking whatsoever. I'm not suggesting that anyone avoid LE, but trying to glean value out of it without the foundation makes little sense to me. Work on the activities for conceptual reasons, but I'd devote the majority of your time to acquiring the core language that was the basis for it. Then you'll have the best of both worlds.

  24. #148

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
    Mike, that's why working through LE and the activities without understanding Pat's earlier work and what led up to it is indeed an "act of faith." If you don't do the homework that he did to acquire the language it's a waste of time, because you're putting the cart before the horse. .
    You know, Mark S, if this is true-----and you make a compelling case (-more elsewhere than in just this post)---then I think Pat should have been clearer in the introduction to "Linear Expressions."

    In my own case, I was assigned LE by a teacher; I hadn't heard any of Martino's records, much less learned any licks from them or gleaned a sense of his sources. I was under the impression one could learn his 'linear expressions' and put them to work playing jazz tunes. And a better student than I was might do just that, but although I learned the lines (and found good use for some of them) I really wasn't clear how to put the material to work in the tunes I was trying to play.

    By the way, I'm working in David Baker's "The BeBop Era, Volume 1" now. Just getting started, so I'm doing the "daily calisthenics" part. Very good stuff. Thanks again for recommending it.

  25. #149

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    You know, Mark S, if this is true-----and you make a compelling case (-more elsewhere than in just this post)---then I think Pat should have been clearer in the introduction to "Linear Expressions."

    In my own case, I was assigned LE by a teacher; I hadn't heard any of Martino's records, much less learned any licks from them or gleaned a sense of his sources. I was under the impression one could learn his 'linear expressions' and put them to work playing jazz tunes. And a better student than I was might do just that, but although I learned the lines (and found good use for some of them) I really wasn't clear how to put the material to work in the tunes I was trying to play.

    By the way, I'm working in David Baker's "The BeBop Era, Volume 1" now. Just getting started, so I'm doing the "daily calisthenics" part. Very good stuff. Thanks again for recommending it.
    Understood, Mark. However, that's always the danger in looking at things at face value without realizing the origin of a concept. In Pat's defense, LE represented and explained his recorded works closer to the time period when the book was published. The longer lines indicative of the activities are lines that you'll hear in Pat's solos on Live and Consciousness (mid-seventies), like The Great Stream, Impressions, Sunny and others.

    LE had tremendous value to me, not in learning anything new per se but in vindicating my research and conclusions based on personal transcriptions of those solos. That's how I was able to indentify the II-V's, his clever linking devices to create longer lines, and the ability to use minor conversion as another option for handling changes as well as modal or groove-based fusion situations featuring static harmony.

    You're certainly welcome regarding the Baker suggestion, and it's great to hear that you are doing what's required to get caught up on the language front. Sad to say, many players fail to do that and end up going around and around in circles without making forward progress, because the foundation isn't there. As you're building up your language vocabulary, I'd encourage you to go back and listen to those early Martino recordings, because it'll all make sense at that point. Since you mentioned "All of Me" as a candidate, you'll be playing great solos on that and other standards without even resorting to the activities in LE, although it's a nice option to have in your improvising arsenal.

    Finally and on a personal note, it's never too late to make huge strides in your evolution as a player. I used to believe that as we age our ability to reach the next plateau gets harder and harder, but events in recent years have caused me to completely dispel that myth. Accelerated growth will do that. It's all about the path, regardless of age or how long we've been playing.

  26. #150

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by jbyork
    I don't have this book, so I can't speak to it directly, and wish to take nothing away from anyone who finds value in it. However, I've come to believe that the instructional methods of most teachers bear little resemblance to how they themselves actually learned to play. At best, the books are attempts to synthesize and codify what they discovered via whatever path they took, which generally involved a lot of time playing "drop the needle" with Wes Montgomery records. Very few teachers are candid about how important this listening and imitating was to them, possibly because no one will buy a book that tells them to listen to a lot of jazz and try to learn what you can from players you admire.
    So true, Jeff. That's why one of the greatest books I've ever read is an out-of-print rather obscure paperback, "The Jazz Idiom" by Jerry Coker:

    Linear Expressions by Pat Martino-jazzidiom-jpg

    Unlike "Improvising Jazz" (also by Coker - the far more popular book back in the day), there were no musical examples to be found. However, it broke down the language-based jazz learning process that is rarely discussed yet so critically important in truly understanding how the greatest players got from point A to point B. At the time it was a real wake-up call for me and just what I needed to hear.

    Right along similar lines is the brilliant "An Unpopular Perspective on Jazz Education" article published by jazz bassist Chuck Israels earlier this year. Even though many here might have already read it, it is well worth revisiting on a regular basis. It's targeted at young aspiring jazz musicians, but the message is a universal one that underlines the gist of what I got years ago out of the Coker book. It underlines Clark Terry's "Imitation -> Assimilation -> Innovation" philosophy.