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  1. #51

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    I agree, but the alterations that PM uses seem to be notes taken from melodic minor(F#) and dorian(E natural) so maybe he's using all three in his lines? In fact not any Ebs so maybe that's why your teacher was thinking dorian? PM clearly was using G natural minor as he indicates as much when he shows the scales themselves rather than the lines.

    I'm also just getting comfortable with the lines. I want to take my time and really know them before I start using them.
    Still working on it.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Mark, I think your teacher was wrong. We are clearly in the 6th mode of Bb major.

    You've also touched on applications of what we are picking up here - the C6 in All Of Me, as a for instance. I'm still getting the lines into my fingers - I've just about memorised all five - and although I use So What transposed to Gm (thanks to iReal Pro) for a backing track, I haven't looked at using lines in Standards yet. But that will come. I'm in no hurry.
    Rob, I think he was too. Just plain wrong. Well, he was right about some other things. Water under the bridge. But I want to make sure I'm on the same page with my colleagues here!

    As for the other, don't worry and don't hurry. I had lessons with this book back in the early '90s. I learned the lines but didn't really know what to do with them----I didn't know any jazz tunes then! You're in a great position: you're learning the lines but already know a bunch of tunes and have a strong sense of what kind of single line stuff you like. You'll learn the lines soon enough. You're in great shape.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #53

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    By the time I receive my copy of the book you guys have down the concepts and technics. Maybe there will be a help class forming?

  5. #54

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    Any questions, just ask. I'll make a video of the five Activities played slowly.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    Any questions, just ask. I'll make a video of the five Activities played slowly.
    Thanks for that, Rob. Great idea.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  7. #56

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    I have a little question, I didn't really get why he is always stressing that the activity is in Bb but the form is in Gm or something like that. I may not understand clearly what he mean by the form, the place, ... of the activity.

    Everything is in Gm isn't it (the licks we are learning are in Gm, no?) ? Why speaking about Bb ? Is there anyone here to clarify briefly all this ?


  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by michael_bxl View Post
    I have a little question, I didn't really get why he is always stressing that the activity is in Bb but the form is in Gm or something like that. I may not understand clearly what he mean by the form, the place, ... of the activity.

    Everything is in Gm isn't it (the licks we are learning are in Gm, no?) ? Why speaking about Bb ? Is there anyone here to clarify briefly all this ?

    I'll give it a go. Gm7 is the same thing as Bb Major 6. (G Bb D and F make up a G-7 chord. Bb D F and G make up a Bb 6 chord.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  9. #58

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    Right. And Gm is relative minor to Bbmajor
    Still working on it.

  10. #59

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    Ok thanks, I think I got it.

    So he just want to warn us that we are in Gm and not in BbMaj. Nothing else.

    Edit : true, I forgot for a second the purpose of the book : to "transform" everything in minor to be able to use the minor forms everywhere (here Gm) but on a "piece" actually in an other mode (BbMaj), that is the trick.
    Last edited by michael_bxl; 09-04-2014 at 04:35 PM.

  11. #60

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    Rob, Pat is by far one of my Idol's in the guitar world! That being said I am very familiar with his technic and lines!
    So here comes the criticism.
    I think taking small parts of his complete line is not very productive as the whole line creates the flow and sound that is unique to Pat. I understand that you may not be able to play up to the speed needed.
    But a certain speed is necessary to get the line to sound correct!
    In lew of not having the speed at this time...using a program that will sloww the time down or a slower backing track would work!
    But what is vital is that the line be played from beginning to end complete

  12. #61

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    As I understand it, he converts everything to minor ideas when improvising. So when the chart says Bbmaj7 for example, he builds lines using Gm ideas.
    Still working on it.

  13. #62

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    Thanks, Marc. I'm practising the full line, but I'm interested in why you say parts of the line could not work against a chord that is only one bar long, for instance.

    On the other hand, I do love Pat's relentless playing, those long, never-ending lines, full of energy and mystery.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by marcwv View Post
    But a certain speed is necessary to get the line to sound correct!
    What kind of speed are we talking about? I can play the lines pretty fast but I think they sound fine slow too. I think that's a sign of a really good line: it sounds good slow, medium and fast. (Conversely, many 'flash' licks only sound good fast.)

    I do think it is important to learn the whole line (activity.)
    But once you have done that, you can play around with different pieces of them...
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  15. #64

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    If I may, here is a conversation with our own JonR from a different forum that discusses Pat Martino's Minor Conversion Theory:

    Minorising [Archive] - iBreatheMusic Forums

  16. #65

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    Help!

    I'm looking to order this book from Amazon. There are currently 7 versions of this book.

    Which one is the correct one.

  17. #66

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    [QUOTE=Rob MacKillop;457528]Thanks, Marc. I'm practising the full line, but I'm interested in why you say parts of the line could not work against a chord that is only one bar long, for instance.
    Rob were you referring to this comment"I think taking small parts of his complete line is not very productive as the whole line creates the flow and sound that is unique to Pat"?
    I don't think that implies that it could not work !
    Marc

  18. #67

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    OK, but why is it "not very productive"? The point is not to use these lines in the hope of sounding like Pat Martino. It would be great if they did. But surely the lines could be used in different contexts?

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by edh View Post
    Help!

    I'm looking to order this book from Amazon. There are currently 7 versions of this book.

    Which one is the correct one.
    I ordered this one:
    LINEAR EXPRESSIONS - REH BOOK: Pat Martino: 9781423460893: Amazon.com: Books

    I think they're all the same, probably different printings. There's no CD. So if it's 64 pages long (-as the one linked above is), it's the right one.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    If I may, here is a conversation with our own JonR from a different forum that discusses Pat Martino's Minor Conversion Theory:

    Minorising [Archive] - iBreatheMusic Forums
    Thanks for posting that. I found it interesting. The standout line for me was that Pat got this from Wes. (I don't know if that's true but I do know I won't forget the claim.)

    A question about that forum and its visual layout: do not allow quoting the way we do? (That is, setting it off visually from the reply so it is easy to tell one from the other?)
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 09-05-2014 at 09:30 AM.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  21. #70

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    OK, I had a free half hour - here's my video of the five activities played slowly. I then played them a little more up tempo, and spliced them in, as you will see. Hopefully this might help someone here.


  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post

    A question about that forum and its visual layout: do not allow quoting the way we do? (That is, setting it off visually from the reply so it is easy to tell one from the other?)
    Maybe it was because the page was from an archive...?

    I am not sure of the ultimate answer but I am glad you got something out of it.

    Personally, I am not looking to use Pat's minor conversion concept to replace my own approach. I am just looking to ingest and absorb his flowing lines and ability to machine gun them for long periods.

  23. #72

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    That's great Rob. Thanks for putting in the work to do that.
    Still working on it.

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    OK, I had a free half hour - here's my video of the five activities played slowly. I then played them a little more up tempo, and spliced them in, as you will see. Hopefully this might help someone here.
    Nice job, Rob. Thanks.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  25. #74

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    Mail just came, and with it, my spanking new copy of Pat's book. (Watch the old one turn up now...)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by AlsoRan View Post
    Maybe it was because the page was from an archive...?

    I am not sure of the ultimate answer but I am glad you got something out of it.

    Personally, I am not looking to use Pat's minor conversion concept to replace my own approach. I am just looking to ingest and absorb his flowing lines and ability to machine gun them for long periods.
    That could be it--an archived page. (Not a big deal, just a moderator's curiosity...)

    I think it's great that you want to ingest / absorb some of Pat's lines without going whole hog into the 'minor conversion' thing. Mark Stefani likes to talk about the "5 % Rule"---take that much from a bunch of great players and you'll have something! (That's not how he says it, but I think you get the gist.)
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  27. #76

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    TERMINOLOGY Question. What Pat teaches in this book ("Linear Expressions") goes by a few names

    ---Minor conversion
    ---Minorization
    ---Convert to Minor

    Can you think of other names used to describe what Pat teaches here?

    Of the three names listed, I prefer "convert to minor."

    "Minor conversion" sounds, well, insignificant. When I hear 'minorization' I think of the signs in dry cleaners I saw as a kid:" 1-hour Martinizing." (I still don't know what Martinizing means.) But 'convert to minor' tells me what it is I am supposed to do and I like that.

    If we get into the weeds about this subject later on, we might discuss which term best suits us.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I think it's great that you want to ingest / absorb some of Pat's lines without going whole hog into the 'minor conversion' thing. Mark Stefani likes to talk about the "5% Rule"---take that much from a bunch of great players and you'll have something! (That's not how he says it, but I think you get the gist.)
    Mark, yes we spoke about that just recently. I've been writing a brief monthly column in my newsletter since April of 1996, and not too long ago I addressed the idea of having multiple influences via "The 5% Rule" as follows:

    "Many years ago I came to the logical conclusion that no matter how hard I tried, I would never equal the ability of any of my chosen mentors doing what they do best. However, I also had an epiphany that nowadays I refer to as The 5% Rule. It dawned on me that if I gleaned 5% of what I admired the most from each one of 20 powerful influences, the eventual 100% sum total would be both personal and formidable. That's precisely what has materialized in the composer and improviser that I am today, and when I stop to think about it, my mentors acquired their skill by having multiple influences, too."

    That being said, you're absolutely right that there's no need to go "whole hog" into Pat's minor conversion concept, but the beauty of it is that it gives you powerful harmonic options based on what you hopefully already know. For me, it was the fact that I had spent years transcribing and absorbing jazz language from many sources, and certainly not just guitar players. Particularly in following my father's original advice for playing over changes, the II-V's were critically important, as they've been for Pat and for so many other notable players (Oscar, Bird, Trane, Benson, etc, etc).

    When I was first learning this language, I'd actually have the source name next to each example, so I was always reminding myself of who was indirectly teaching me. Later as the vocabulary grew to the point where I had assimilated hundreds of great lines, I ended up adopting David Baker's approach of organizing everything according to starting pitch relevant to the IIm7 chord.

    You might be aware that long II-V's (two measures) are typically very melodic over the IIm7 chord, but when it comes to the V7 chord they can splinter off harmonically, either 1) Staying inside/melodic, 2) Going outside, or 3) Using major blues based on the eventual I chord. It's the inside/melodic approach that completely embraces minor conversion and how it can be used against other families of chords.

    Therefore when I stumbled across Linear Expressions I did go through the book but mainly what I got out of it was spelled out in the preface, and I realized that I was already armed and dangerous with the language but hadn't realized it's potential. Understand that Martino had that knowledge long before he ever wrote a book about it, and like others he acquired it in the same manner that my father had advised me to do. If you've invested time learning II-Vs and have spent any time at all transcribing Pat you'll realize that right away. If you haven't done that (or enough of it), that's where I would focus my main attention.

    For those who haven't read it, this was spelled out in my Seven Steps to Changes Heaven article that was published several years ago in Jazz Improv magazine. All for now..
    Mark Stefani
    http://www.visionmusic.com

    "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzOnSix View Post
    "Many years ago I came to the logical conclusion that no matter how hard I tried, I would never equal the ability of any of my chosen mentors doing what they do best. However, I also had an epiphany that nowadays I refer to as The 5% Rule. It dawned on me that if I gleaned 5% of what I admired the most from each one of 20 powerful influences, the eventual 100% sum total would be both personal and formidable. That's precisely what has materialized in the composer and improviser that I am today, and when I stop to think about it, my mentors acquired their skill by having multiple influences, too."
    For me the key words there are personal and formidable. I have learned a lot of Herb Ellis lines, as have many others, but we don't all have the same favorites and we don't play them with the same feel, so it's not like we all sound alike, much less just like Herb! Maybe it's like cooking---so much is in the seasoning and presentation! ;o)

    It will be interesting to hear what the rest of us take from Pat's book as we work through it.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    For me the key words there are personal and formidable. I have learned a lot of Herb Ellis lines, as have many others, but we don't all have the same favorites and we don't play them with the same feel, so it's not like we all sound alike, much less just like Herb! Maybe it's like cooking---so much is in the seasoning and presentation! ;o)
    I like the cooking parallel. Funny, because I was just doing a Skype session with a student in London earlier today, and on the same subject of II-V's I was mentioning a dissertation I'd done entitled "Creative Cooking" and subtitled "Blending Classic Jazz Ingredients." That one also appeared in Jazz Improv several years ago. The premise was establishing 12 one-bar themes for the IIm7 chord that could then be matched with 36 one-bar candidates for the V7 chord, covering inside, outside and blues approaches. The goal was to get students away from playing their long II-V's verbatim and more into changing them on the fly during the course of a solo. Of course, this is what takes place eventually anyway, so it was just intended to accelerate the process.

    Getting back to those key words, yes.. it's amazing how each one of us has the power to shape our own destiny by choosing specific influences. As we've talked about before, it's really all about "surrendering" to the language, just as Herb, Pat, Bird, Oscar, Benson, Burrell, Corea, Trane, Hancock, Pass and all of the other great players have done.
    Mark Stefani
    http://www.visionmusic.com

    "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus

  31. #80

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    OK, I've got all five Activities under my fingers, and have started moving to other keys. It's an enjoyable pastime. And my thoughts are turning to "How to use this stuff".

    I started looking at Tune Up.

    It starts with a ii/V/I in D: Em7 / A7 / DMa7

    Would you be thinking Em Activity lines over both Em and A7, and Bm (the relative minor) over DMaj7?

    If a major key has three minor chords (in this case Em, F#m and Bm) would the lines work over all three minors?

    If the V7 chord had a b9 added, creating a diminished chord (in this case Bbdim7) where could we use the lines over a diminished chord.

    Pat probably covers this, but I'm at my computer and thinking out loud, so to speak.

  32. #81

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    Rob Sounds good!
    Marc

  33. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    If a major key has three minor chords (in this case Em, F#m and Bm) would the lines work over all three minors?
    .
    That's a good question. I never tried it. Will have to give it a go.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  34. #83

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    I am still fiddling with Activity #1 - it seems to me that it is a collection of several call response phrases.
    Nice to see some fingering ideas on this thread. Quite useful (now that I am confused by Conti's "lead with first finger" idea).

    About "minorization" is there a more comprehensive source somewhere?

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland View Post

    About "minorization" is there a more comprehensive source somewhere?
    Here's a link to some pages at All About Jazz where Pat answers some questions about using minor lines. I won't pretend that I got all of it.....

    [Note: not all the posts here are by Pat. His are clearly indicated because his user name in the forum is Pat Martino.]


    Pat Martino - Page 55
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  36. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop View Post
    OK, I've got all five Activities under my fingers, and have started moving to other keys. It's an enjoyable pastime. And my thoughts are turning to "How to use this stuff".

    I started looking at Tune Up.

    It starts with a ii/V/I in D: Em7 / A7 / DMa7

    Would you be thinking Em Activity lines over both Em and A7, and Bm (the relative minor) over DMaj7?
    Rob,

    First of all, Miles' Tune Up is a terrific choice for working on changes playing. The way the key modulates every four bars almost makes it an exercise, except that it's also a great tune. Over the years I've often recommended Tune Up along with Pent-Up House (Rollins) and Perdido (Duke) to my students who are seeking a vehicle to apply their language, specifically II-V's.

    The only issue with applying Martino's activity examples to Tune Up is that, much like a series I do entitled Minor Connections, the lines are purposely long and in that sense exceed what you need for handling the II-V itself. You'd be better off by using classic two-bar phrases that are intended to resolve to the I chord. Otherwise you'll have to do some surgery to make those lines work effectively.

    What you bring up regarding Bm over Dmaj7 has been a source of fascination to me for years, although I see it as more of an occasional option and not something that I do all of the time. To better understand its potential, take a close look at that first group of activity examples in G minor and note the presence of the E in every one of them, which is a key part of Pat's minor conversion philosophy. If you have to think in terms of scales or modes, it's not coming out of Bb but F major, and that's exactly what makes it so cool and unique when applied to a Bbmaj7 chord, because the E becomes the #11 (or b5).

    While that revelation itself is really no big deal, in a sense it IS a big deal because the lines have an internal gravity that can make the E sound convincing against the Bbmaj7 chord. This is something that I could never succeed in doing decades ago when I was lost in a sea of modes and trying to somehow make lydian sound musical. It never worked for me, but finding this hidden method via minor conversion opened that door. Of course, in using Bm over Dmaj7 in Tune Up the note we're talking about is G#/Ab. Like I say, I don't do it all of the time but it sure is a nice alternative to have at your disposal.

    Btw, great point that Jeff York made about Martino and what he learned from Wes, analyzing the language after the fact. You can especially hear the Montgomery influence as well as a solid dose of blues in his early work with organist Don Patterson (among others). It's so important to go directly to the source to better understand how these players evolved.
    Mark Stefani
    http://www.visionmusic.com

    "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus

  37. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    Here's a link to some pages at All About Jazz where Pat answers some questions about using minor lines. I won't pretend that I got all of it.....

    [Note: not all the posts here are by Pat. His are clearly indicated because his user name in the forum is Pat Martino.]


    Pat Martino - Page 55
    Hmmm... that is good link but complete:
    The circle to the far left represents forms that seem difficult to function with, (avoided accordingly) while the circle to the far right represents their opposite, structures that are easy to function within, and desired.
    But there is no circle or any other pictures there.
    I remember seeing some strange geometry-infused writing by Pat once - does anybody remember anything similar?

    Hmmm... searching the web I came across website called "faststrings":
    "Just download Pat Martino - Quantum Guitar Complete for free and leave comment for mates."
    Really?
    Instead of spending $22 at Amazon for a DVD?
    Something does not add up there.....
    Last edited by woland; 09-07-2014 at 12:17 AM.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland View Post
    I remember seeing some strange geometry-infused writing by Pat once - does anybody remember anything similar?
    I believe you're referring to his infamous chromatic star in an issue of Guitar Player magazine long ago. I don't know anyone who wasn't totally confused by it at the time. :-)
    Mark Stefani
    http://www.visionmusic.com

    "Anyone can make the simple complicated. Creativity is making the complicated simple" - Mingus

  39. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzOnSix View Post
    I believe you're referring to his infamous chromatic star in an issue of Guitar Player magazine long ago. I don't know anyone who wasn't totally confused by it at the time. :-)
    Yes I have that PDF
    "M a s t e r C l a s s
    S a c r e d G e o m e t r y
    Simplifying the fretboard with Pat Martino
    by JUDE GOLD (Guitar Player Magazine / April, 2004)"

    I also found deeper take in:
    Guy Capuzzo*
    Pat Martino’s The Nature of the Guitar: An Intersection of Jazz Theory and Neo-Riemannian Theory

    And there was another article I have from Guitar Technique (June 2002) magazine (I believe I got this one from TrueFrire at one point) "Scales & Jazz Minorizing" - written by Shaun Baxter.

  40. #89

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    Cheers, Mark. All good food for thought. I understand that "surgery" might be needed in certain circumstances.

    Still in the woodshed...

  41. #90

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    I am improving on the five activities and am practicing phase II - Vertical Movement.

    As I am working through this, I am starting to think that I need to keep in mind the minor scale shape that the line is built on as well as the chord shape. I think that by doing this, I might be able to better make use of the lines when trying to apply them to tunes. I point this out because, although he goes through the scales initially, PM doesn't really stress them much. I think I will add a step and start practicing - 1) chord shape, 2) scale, 3) activity and see if I like that.
    Still working on it.

  42. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by woland View Post
    Yes I have that PDF
    "M a s t e r C l a s s
    S a c r e d G e o m e t r y
    Simplifying the fretboard with Pat Martino
    by JUDE GOLD (Guitar Player Magazine / April, 2004)"

    I also found deeper take in:
    Guy Capuzzo*
    Pat Martino’s The Nature of the Guitar: An Intersection of Jazz Theory and Neo-Riemannian Theory

    And there was another article I have from Guitar Technique (June 2002) magazine (I believe I got this one from TrueFrire at one point) "Scales & Jazz Minorizing" - written by Shaun Baxter.
    Have to remember Pat especially back then was very into symmetry and geometric shapes. That was when he had the guitar with two necks strung up in a mirror image or each other. At GIT his talks would get into this symmetry views and could get way out there. Pat would talk of symmetry in music which music is full of then somehow be talking of living with monks wrapping bread in cellophane and simplicity of things. So Pat's was a deep thinker at a lot of levels.

    The way I look at it Pat for most part is a self taught musician, who became good very young and started playing in bands and spent years playing clubs. I think he's giving us a peek into how as a self taught musician these geometric and symmetrical ideas were his personal music organizational tools. To me I think it's better step back and try to think about what was Pat seeing or hearing, than trying to intellectualize it with current theory based approaches. That would be something for later after having a better handle on Pat's view of things.
    No, I'm not going to give you the answer to your question. I don't want to deny you the pleasure you'll receive when you figure it out yourself. -- Bill Evans talking to his brother.

  43. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzOnSix View Post
    While that revelation itself is really no big deal, in a sense it IS a big deal because the lines have an internal gravity that can make the E sound convincing against the Bbmaj7 chord. This is something that I could never succeed in doing decades ago when I was lost in a sea of modes and trying to somehow make lydian sound musical. It never worked for me, but finding this hidden method via minor conversion opened that door.
    I think this is what people who love Pat love about him. His lines have this relentless, headlong quality. They're not noodling but they're also not just running scales or arpeggios. They're incredibly strong melodic lines. (I think I once read Pat Metheny saying that if the rhythm was strong, you could play just about anything and make it work.) I think their integrity as lines is such that it any actual clashes with the underlying harmony do not register, or at least do not distract.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  44. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop View Post
    Have to remember Pat especially back then was very into symmetry and geometric shapes.
    I think the question is, which came first? If Pat learned how to play first (-and I think he did) and only then cast about for a way to explain it to other people, then the sacred geometry (and whatnot) is only important if it helps you play. It doesn't help me.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  45. #94

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    .....and a hush fell over the crowd as everyone hunkered down to complete Phase I.....
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  46. #95

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    Yup. I must admit I'm having doubts about the efficacy of learning these lines. For instance, I'm playing them over So What. OK, I improvise a bit, then throw one of the Activities in. It always sounds contrived, and different from my own lines. They are great lines, but unless you can come up with your own equally convoluted lines, they will always stand out.

    Not Pat's fault, of course, but entirely mine. I'm trying to find ways of integrating the lines without feeling I'm just playing one of Pat's lines I've memorised...it's a little confusing. The process seems different from just learning, say, a bebop or blues lick, and messing with it to make it your own, seamlessly integrating it into your own playing. These lines are longer, and don't sound like licks.

    So, how are you guys using them, if you've got to that stage yet?

  47. #96

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    Hi Rob,

    Apologies for checking in so infrequently, but directly due to you starting this thread and providing some sort of structure; I have been working on the materials on a daily basis. I've been moving much more slowly however, and taking on an activity per week. Therefore, I am now on Activity #2. I've learned Activity #1 in several of Pat's 5 positions, and also playing each one off of each finger off of each string to get it strong in my ear. Also I'm doing slurs and slides for different articulations as well as to make up for a slow picking hand, Also trying some hybrid right hand for the same reasons. Yesterday I played with a singer and without thinking, threw in parts of the line from Activity #1 over 'Ain't No Sunshine.' I thought that it came out fairly organically with a decent feel. Thank you again for the thread and for all of your contributions. I have enjoyed your Youtube videos for a long time now!
    Last edited by srlank; 09-09-2014 at 06:09 PM.

  48. #97

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    Great post, srlank! You are doing it the right way, I'd say. Keep it up. Glad it's working for you.

  49. #98

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    That's awesome srlank.

    What do you think about this? I tried it this morning for 5 minutes and it sounded pretty good so I'm going to go at it a while once I get home from work and see what happens.

    I'm going to practice the activities over ii-(V)-Is of various lengths and try them using something like the connecting game. It looks like, in terms of position on the fretboard, Activities 1 and 3 will fit together well as will Activities 2 and 4 and then 5 and 2.

    For example for a 4 bar ii-V-I in G, the Activities will be Am for the Am7 and D7 chords and an Em for the Gmaj7 chord. If you play in the 5th position, you can use the first two bars of Activity 1 starting on the A and then the third and fourth bars of Activity 3 in Em. And then try the 3rd and fourth bars of Activity 1 in Am and then the bars of Actiivity 3 starting wherever the nearest note in that activity is going back up again or continuing down.

    Also, using one bar at a time of Am Activity 1 and Em Activity 3 for a 2 bar ii-V-I starting at different parts of Activity 1 and trying to connect the two Activities in a way that sounds good.

    Then try the same thing only using Activities 2 and 4 and then 5 and 2. Then try ii-V-Is moving through different positions maybe focussing on licks using the same string sets and moving about in different positions.

    Is that making any sense? Or is this a bad idea and I should just go through the book one step at a time?
    Still working on it.

  50. #99

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    That sounds really great Colin. Let us know how it works out. I'll try it too once I get enough Activities together.

  51. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by ColinO View Post

    What do you think about this? I tried it this morning for 5 minutes and it sounded pretty good so I'm going to go at it a while once I get home from work and see what happens.

    I'm going to practice the activities over ii-(V)-Is of various lengths and try them using something like the connecting game. It looks like, in terms of position on the fretboard, Activities 1 and 3 will fit together well as will Activities 2 and 4 and then 5 and 2.
    I just finished practicing, so I'll make a note to give this some time later today. Eager to see how it works out for me. Thanks for the suggestion.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola