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Can you notice when a person is improvising over a Jazz and using a more Blues-based approach?
This video was posted recently in another thread. To my ears, Larry Carlton sounds more bluesy, almost like a soft rock song or like smooth Jazz song. If my presumption is correct, then why does he sound like this? Is he using predominantly the pentatonic scales and blues scales?
Is he possibly, not targeting chord tones while using the pentatonic scale?
Maybe he is not putting enough tension into the V7 portions of the progression.
Could someone tell me if I am way off-base or is there something to my observation? Why does it sound so different from what Joe Pass or Jim Hall would play?
Thanks.
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08-23-2014 09:05 AM
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You are correct, inasmuch as LC is (1) soloing by basically restating the bejabbers out of the melody while shaking notes in a bluesy way, and (2) working out of a blues-based pattern of playing. It may be that he is thinking pentatonically, but I tend to think that he is using the blues scale extensively--which comprises (i.e., takes in) the pentatonic notes.
What's up? Well, certainly Carlton knows his Parker and his Coltrane--don't kid yourself. However, he didn't get to be at the top of the pyramid of his part of the guitar/music world by blowing extensively over "Donna Lee" or "A Love Supreme." We are talking Mr. "Kid Charlemagne", here. His tone, attitude, shake-notes, and long vibrato are all pretty much signature items. PLUS, I judge the audience in that video to be Las Vegas/Hollywood show types. On one thread on which I posted this video I noted that the audience views jazz as being able to chant "Tequila!" at the right moment when Wes Montgomery hit the stop-time break in the chart.
So, Carlton was fooling around, serving up Carlton-esque phrases, while folks nodded and figured, "Man, that's some badass jazz." No harm, no foul.
Again, let's don't delude ourselves--at home, I'm sure LC has an L5CES and he can burn on "Ornithology."
OTOH, these days I hear legions of guitarists playing the blues and calling it jazz--and I'm not talking about what Joe Pass meant when he would say, "Now I'd like to play a blues."
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I agree with Greentone about Larry Carlton.
Some jazz players are more bluesy than others---Herb Ellis put some blues in about everything he did. It's one reason I love his playing so much----I love "blues-infused" jazz.
Wes, of course, was a great blues player.
And I think somewhere in the Benson picking thread George Benson is quoted as saying that Dr. Lonnie Smith encouraged him put some blues in everything he played. The reason? For Lonnie, blues was the one form of music that everyone understands / gets. So George learned to play blues lines in non-blues tunes. (And that seems to have worked out very well for him...;o)
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Off topic, but I recently saw a premiere guitar video feature, a "rig rundown", on larry carlton's gear. He goes pretty in depth...
Originally Posted by Greentone
K
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Check out Bob DeVos' playing -- jazz with deep-blue roots.
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Well...PG settles it--no L5 at home for Larry. Bet he can play Ornithology, though. He would never have to, though. The world comes to him to hear him play his style, not bebop. Must be some kind of nice.
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I wish I had my old copy of Larry's first album he did at nineteen, he's sitting on a stool in a black suit and his ES-175. I don't have the album because I actually gave it to Larry because he didn't have a copy anymore, or trying to get them out of circulation. Larry won best Jazz soloist at the Disneyland competition and first prize was to do an album for A&M records. Originally Posted by Greentone
Larry loves Blues and Coltrane's Ballad album, Larry listened to it a lot because Trane's phrasing is so amazing on that album. Combine the two and you have Larry's phrasing.
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This one:
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Thanks for the inputs.
Also, I can understand how guitarists would use rock, R&B, and blues lines over Jazz when playing with a general audience.
It seems to work for some.
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Hey AlsoRan Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Forgive me if I state the obvious, but mixing blues clichés and minor pentatonic lines is a central part of jazz, including all of Bebop. Listen to Bird, Clifford brown, bud powell, Dizzy, and even beyond, eg ornette who is a deeply bluesy player, etc. And on guitar, Wes, Benson, Martino, and eg P. Bernstein etc. You have to go out towards the fringes (or in the euro-jazz) direction to find players that *don't* draw on the blues (Ben Monder? McLaughlin?).
In particular, even in the "playing changes over standards/jazz tunes" context everybody uses blues all the time. Joe pass and jimmy Raney included. Ignoring chord tones by playing e.g. minor pentatonics over a maj7 chord is a simple and ubiquitous way to build tension, and it forms the core of the language of jazz. Playing bebop is not just about knowing how to accurately navigate chord changes, that's just one of many ingredients, and blues is as important. I can;t think of anyone considered a competent bebop player who doesnt have blues oozing out of all their solos.
The problem is when playing blues licks is overused. This happens typically by novice jazz players who don;t know how to play changes and so do the "this worked when I was playing rock" thing.
But it is also done by people who should know better (eg a lot of smooth jazz), and in that Carlton clip you posted he does it so much (and his "swing feel" is so hokey) that I find this clip to be pure schlock, and a major diss to Farlow who smiles good naturedly but surely was embarrassed to be there. Carlton's a great player, but I find this clip awful.
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Originally Posted by pkirk
You have done a much better job of articulating what I could (and probably still can't) exactly put into works.
Trying to understand what these artists are doing when they play this way has been difficult.
I am starting to realize why I like some solos more than others and part of it is when a solo sounds this way. It is still nice but seems for lack of a better word, a little too "safe."
I dunno. I will just keep listening and playing....
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There are some books on that: Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Dan Greenblatt "Blues Scales"
Steve Khan "Pentatonic Khancepts".
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There's a famous GIT instructor who about once a quarter tears a new one on a European student(s) when they start thinking they are all that because they have chops up the wazoo. This instructor will point out that their playing has no soul or feeling. He will telling them that in US you grow up spending your summers in a hot, stuffy, garage jamming on Blues and from that you learn to play with a feel. He reminds them they grow up being taught classical which is nice, but it doesn't teach playing with a feel. Also in the movie Icons Amoung Us there is a part when talking to New Orleans musicians and the same thing gets expressed. Then they interview a European Jazz artist who's talking about their heritage of Folk music and how it influences their Jazz. I read the same thing in the biographies I'm reading the great Jazz players there is a Blues influence in their playing. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Blues is important because it's your first lesson in expressing yourself and not just playing a bunch of notes.
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Me, too. One of my very favorite topics, but the element totally missing in this discussion is the secret behind how piano legend Oscar Peterson (my #1 jazz influence) could make Misty sound like Stormy Monday. Benson is another master at manipulating his blues power to fit non-blues situations, yet you have to possess this key language ingredient that they shared in common to make it work. Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
Here's the deal..
Just as there are three primary chord families, major, minor and dominant, there are three blues personalities that match those families as well as an entire key. Guitar players by nature are rich when it comes to minor blues, simply because the "just-add-water" minor pentatonic (or blues) scale can capture that sound even if the player hasn't absorbed the language from traditional blues guitar legends.
However, when it comes to major (and dominant) blues it's another story altogether, one that continues to elude so many guitarists who are scale-based and/or minor blues-oriented. For major blues you need motion between the minor and major 3rds, or Eb to E in the key of C, and ideally with no 7ths involved. It can't be analyzed through the eyes of scales, all of which feature either a major or minor slant. Both thirds are required and if you listen to or transcribe guys like OP and GB, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about because their playing has major blues written all over it. That's exactly how they've managed to add a soulful touch to any standard in a major key.
It does take a lot of listening and work (as they did), but once you have a solid vocabulary of major blues ideas at your disposal the possibilities are unlimited, and when you combine it with core jazz language you get the best of both worlds.Last edited by JazzOnSix; 08-23-2014 at 05:05 PM.
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FWIW, I have played blues guitar for 50 years. By this I do not mean rock guitar. (Play that, too.) I am not talking about a kid who heard Clapton and started reaching back. Nope. My parents were stone soul blues people--they went to hear blues artists and they both played blues, too. (Guitarists) It came naturally to me in my house. I have played steadily in a blues duo with a great bottleneck player for the last 20 years.
Blues is a lot about what you don't play. Noodling around like lots of young guitarists do is really un-hip in blues. It is so much about feeling.
I would have to say that the bluesiest jazz player ever was Armstrong. His horn dripped the blues. It was jazz--but it was steeped in the blues.
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Mark a little more on this would be appreciated. especially the "no 7ths" thing. maybe use a 6th instead? Originally Posted by JazzOnSix
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Sure thing. The idea when using major blues, especially over multiple changes, is to use note choices that will complement the other chords. For instance, if you're improvising over changes in the key of C, the b7 (Bb) can fight you at times when used over the II, III and IV chords, whereas the 6th that you refer to is a "glue note" and one (like the 2nd) not found in minor pentatonic/blues scales. The maj7 (B) is sweet but can distract from the purpose of interjecting blues into the mix. Originally Posted by pkirk
You also get more dynamic interval skips by avoiding the 7ths. A common connection is using the 6th while ascending to the root (note how it works effectively against those other chords), but while descending from the root try going directly to the 5th, bypassing both 7ths and the 6th. Again, if you listen carefully to players like Peterson and Benson you'll hear them doing what I'm describing most of the time, expecially over standard (non-blues) progressions. This is not a personal theory.
Understand that there are always exceptions to every rule. These are just general guidelines based upon my observations and transcribing efforts of players who really have a firm grasp of major blues power. Once you lock into it there's little thinking involved at all. It becomes something that you hear and feel, but there is some work involved to acquire the vocabulary and then integrate it. All for now..
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I think you have unlocked the key for me, GT. Originally Posted by Greentone
What I am hearing from the solo, as you stated, was the restatement of the melody, and he does not stray far from it.
What I am not hearing is the solo "taking flight" and going off in other directions, without the "exploration" that I seek out in solos.
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Wow. I had a friend who had this album. I recorded it to reel-to-reel way back then. Originally Posted by Greentone
This one:
Had to give the album back. It is a rare one!!
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While we are on the subject, could one of you name a Jazz song that could be classified as a "Major Blues?"
I am so used to hearing minor Blues.
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Charlie Parker's Confirmation. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
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Hey Guys,
For anyone interested in seeing an example of what I just described, here's a major blues excerpt from GB's "Before You Go" guitar solo (Living Inside Your Love - 1979), transposed from Eb to the key of C:
Note the four occurrences of major blues (Eb to E) spanning three octaves, no 7ths, the use of the 6th (A) in approaching the root (C) plus the dynamic skips from C down to the 5th (G), both done in two octaves.
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OK, Doc. Originally Posted by docbop
I can feel the happiness in the song that the Major tonality imparts! When I practice with this scale, I will make sure I am smiling...
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Confirmation is a good choice. Parker's blues changes, which permeated the 50s, really became the ticket in "big city" blues playing.
For something a little greasier, but still a five-chord, major blues, try soloing over Jimmy Smith, Grady Tate, Stanley Turrentine and Kenny Burrell on The Jumpin Blues (in "C"):
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Love it, Man! Originally Posted by Greentone
And I really have got that "happy Blues" feel now!
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