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After taking Gary Burton jazz improvisation class on Coursera - it seems that one way to proceed for relative beginner when learning new tune is to analyze harmony and discern the proper set(s) of scales to use over it.
My own way is to figure out scales and/or to look for "model solo" for a tune (something written with didactic purpose in mind) - see what type of scales are used and memorize parts of it. Then look up solos by well known players and grab some phrases.
Then when I play I usually have a some idea of type of phrase I want to play - more on a rhythmic level rather than melodic (my melodic imagination is not that strong) - and I execute it trying to use scales, phrases etc that I learned before. I do consciously think "ok this is minor 251" and try to tap into my (not very big) bag of phrases but rarely I rarely end up playing something note for note.
So my question is how does the the process work on more advance level? Do you analyze new tune for scales or can you do it on the spot? How big is your bag of phrases? Can you pull something from it and play it note for note? Is there a moment when you step into empty elevator shaft and play without trying to exert rational control over the process? What guides your choices then?
Maybe these are wrong questions but I am trying to find some way to practice to take me a step farther beyond reacting (or even anticipating) changes in a very rational way.
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08-10-2014 01:22 PM
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The planning and preparation for an improv are usually done in the wood shed, by nature of developing a knowledge of harmonies and the fingerings that best apply those harmonies . . . and then it's further honed and refined in application. Regarding your questions about doing it on an advanced level, there really aren't too many tunes, or at least chordal progressions, that the truly advanced players haven't already been exposed to. So, in a sense, they've "been there-done that". Now, with that being said . . often new ideas are born out of previously stated lines, phrases, rifs . . etc. New ideas are also born just by nature of listening to what one of the fellow band mates might have just said in a comp, or a prior improv. Similarly with rhythmic patterns. You might hear a drummer do something on his snare or ride or hi-hat that catches your attention and then incorporate a bit that into your own delivery.
Originally Posted by woland
Anyway . . that's how I see it.
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I had the habit to play on spot for years,until I Saw a women who played "Renaissance music" on a luth.
She asthonished me;after her concert,I had a long discussion with her.
She said:If you Will be interesting,whatever the music you play,analyse the scales and modes and Write your improvisation on a paper.With this manner to do,you CAN deeply understand what you are doing.
If you play on the spot,you Will return in your old prefered pads
cheers
HB
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If I'm playing a typical standard or jazz classic no prep work is necessary. However with some very modern jazz tunes with creative forms and uncommon chords it requires a little prep work for me.
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Like Patrick2 said you spend years in the woodshed preparing for as many situations as you can standard tunes, cycles of chords, modal vamps, and boatloads of chord voicing. Then in the real world you use the time you are given be that charts given ahead of a gig, or a minute before a take in the studio look over a chart, or on the band stand and someone points at you and says SOLO. In that last situation you're first chorus you're years of ear training is your prep, the second chorus you've seen the chord progression and now developing some ideas from that woodshed experience, by third chorus you should be in the zone, if not they are going to yell SOLO to someone else next time.
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I ALWAYS think chords. I never think scales. I use scales but never think them or modes. Obviously I use then but I never refer to them or plan out by thinking about them. But chords are the thing. I can do anything with them as long as I understand them and the source.
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I think I know what you mean. In our little jam we have quite experienced tenor player with very mellow - Lester Young type of approach - I can read him fairly well (as far as comping behind him). We also occasionally get young but very good alto player - that guy plays hard, fast and he likes challenge. I learned a lot from both of them as far as approaching solos. As far as drumming goes - we had somewhat irregular string of drummers in the past some of them were very good - so I know the feeling of playing with good drummer - somebody that you have strong connection with and bounce ideas. Our current drummer is not very advanced - but super knowledgeable about jazz and open to critique - first time around if I want to take dynamics down I may need to go there and hit him on the forehead with the mallet ;-) but next time he does it right. Originally Posted by Patrick2
Last edited by woland; 08-10-2014 at 04:12 PM.
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Good point. I spend a lot of time comping chords with bass and drum backup tracks and trying to find every possible inversion and alteration. After a while when you work out some smooth chord sequences for typical progressions you have sets of common notes and notes that create harmonic change clearly mapped. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Thanks Doc. In our jam session group (I play with same small core group of musicians for two and half years now - we get occasional single jam visitors and sometimes a new group member) we used to take very long takes with multi chorus solos. After a while we decided that limiting people to two choruses (or three if they really feel inspired) works better - people are more focused and they try to do it right first time around so they come prepared. Every now and then - just for practice - we pick up a random tune that is more or less new to everybody and try to work it out in 5 takes or less - too many and you stop being creative but try to play it safe. Originally Posted by docbop
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Like many others, I have many, many years of studying and playing standards as well as analyzing and studying/transcribing many of my favorite musicians. I almost always play by ear because it is easier for me than reading the music. I love playing and composing/creating music and don't plan beyond picking songs for a particular gig. I always try to match the tunes with the anticipated audience.
wiz
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If you write it down it's hardly improv, IMO it's an arrangement, I don't play the same improv every time some ideas and licks might be similar but that's all. Originally Posted by Hyppolyte Bergamotte
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Writing it down is a student process. It's a learning process and is encouraged by band directors who have novice student players. But the purpose of jazz is improv. The challenge is to play each performance newly and to not rely on your old patterns.
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^^^ Henry's spot on here. Improvisation is creativity. That creativity can and does come in different ways. To analyze and then write something down is indeed creativity. But, not extemporaneous on the fly creativity. However, as a student . . it's kind of a "walk before you can run" scenario. By analyzing and writing something down, a student will definitelty be able to improvise on the fly . . after a while and as he/she progresses. So, maybe that's what the woman hyppolyte referred to was saying? Maybe she was speaking to the process of understanding what you're improvising as you grow into being able to do it on the fly?
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Don't want to make it too complex but difference is the way information is processed. Brain has some database of phrases, cell patterns etc etc that were memorized. It also has some rules how to select subset of those phrases based in moving harmony. Beginner will operate on conscious level "Ok this chord and this melody note, resolving vs non-resolving etc" and come up with some phrases/scales. Seasoned pro will do it much faster and without need to consciously go through steps. So beginner cannot work in real time (needs a compiler) whereas pro can (works as fast interpreter). But at which point creativity happens if it is just a question of speed and size of database? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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I don't know how to answer this question. It's rhetorical right? There is no answer. Each person progresses at their own pace. Originally Posted by woland
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It's similar to someone who has read and studied a language so that they can have complex conversations about esoteric ideas, expressing themselves spontaneously as well as scholarly in an organized and thoughtful dialoge and not have to think about it.
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It was rhetorical because it is probably harder question than "what is consciousness and sense of 'self'". Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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LOL. No it's not harder. It's just relative. The answer will differ with each person. There is no one answer.
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I once took very trippy class in college called "History of magic and religion". It tried to map out basic unifying elements of all religions and was tracing it to structure of human brain. To trivialize the content in one sentence - the researcher believed that unity of all religions is due to the fact that all took root in shamanism and shamanism is about ingesting trance inducing plants. Since basic structure of human brain is the same so is basic human trip on drugs - ergo all religions are the same. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
So if that is true why would answer differ from person to person - we all have more or less similar soft hardware in our craniums - we load it with patterns coming from same musical tradition. What I suspect happens is that each brain links that musical data base to some non-musical ideas in a different way. Such process (of analyzing and linking) occurs in our brains all the time without conscious awareness of it.
So what we think as creative may already be there in some predetermined form.
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Analogy to language is common but music has structure and inner logic without any meaning. I guess is what I am not so sure is spontaneity of it - but that is like asking about free will. Maybe we have different type of controlling mechanism in our brain and we are good in operating and not so good with others - so it is partial free will. Originally Posted by Pat Clare
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woland - I typed a very detailed response. I'm sorry tapatalk ate it. Here's a recreation:
First of all I reject the notion from your trippy teacher. Secondly I believe we are all individual beings. We differ in our goals, purposes, desires, dreams, ambitions, needs, visions, aesthetic tastes, etc. We are not all the same person.
You can have one person who started playing guitar by age 8 and did nothing but play guitar. Took lessons and applied himself. Another didn't start until his late 20s and played an hour ever other night. Some value improv. Others not so much. Some get it right off the bat. Others never really do.
We all learn at different rates. We are all individuals. We are not the same.
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Like Henry said, I'm thinking chords.
For me, I'm thinking chord grips and working my way through a progression over the chord grips I might use. Often my chord choices tend to work down the neck. So my improv often moves down the neck also.
Henry's an advanced player, I'm not. I'm more of the practice 5 hours a week kind of guy right now. So I have to prepare to get acceptable results (to me). My preparation is to noodle over the chords a lot until I've got a bunch of "path ways" I can pick and choose from. Sometimes I'll hear new lines and play them or stop to figure them out.
Here's an example of my noodling/preparation (this is a very familiar tune for me). You can probably see which chord grips I'm playing over:
Last edited by fep; 08-11-2014 at 07:25 PM.
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I can releate to some of this. Way back in my life, I do remember ingesting some trance inducing plant forms. I ingested in various ways. Smoked some, snorted some, ate some. It was, at times religious. Because on more than one occasion I could have sworn I saw God . . and he seemed seriously PISSED OFF!!! I also think your college professor (researcher?) might have *ingested* more than his/her share of trance inducing plants as well. Originally Posted by woland
Not mocking you here woland . . well, I guess I am but in a fun loving way. I'm just trying to suggest that you're really over analyzing this whole subject of the spontaneity of improvising.
It's this simple; we study and we learn, then we practice what we've studied and learned, then we apply in spontaneity . . (ergo improvised lines based upon what we've studied, practiced and learned) . . when we blow over chord changes.
Why it's different from person to person . . is simply because each person is different for any other.
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My own experience is somewhat limited - suffices to say I played saxophone in a reggae band for a while. And that was the time where that type of plants were more or less tolerated (paradoxically - in otherwise somewhat oppressive regime). But guy in the band really wanted to follow "Rasta way" so the whole deal was more like a religious communion than getting wasted. As far as that professor - no doubt - I think he was on neverending sabbatical studying with Don Juan (Carlos Castaneda ;-) Originally Posted by Patrick2
As for over-analyzing - it is the problem of quantity becoming quality for me. You study, you read books, you memorize lines (very hard thing for me since I do not have well developed melodic memory - I remember rhythms much easier than sequence of tones). Then at some point it is time to take a step forward and go beyond. How is it done - by abstraction from detail, developing intuition? I used to work as a skiing instructor when I was in college and it was interesting idea where you had to deconstruct motion pattern that you had completely automated, teach it step by step to students and then guide them so they could achieve their own automation.
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There seems to be far more frustration in your quest than actual questions. There have been some very good answers to the questions you pose here. But, I suspect that you've known the answers to your questions before you even asked them. Your admission to "the problem of quantity becoming quality" is shown in your extememly analytical approach to many more things than just jazz guitar. At least for a short period of time . . stop trying to learn more and focus on using what you've already learned. Originally Posted by woland
You sighted a very good example of how as a ski instructor you had to deconstruct what you already had put on auto pilot. So now . . ask yourself if a person wanting to learn jazz guitar and had absolutely no theory and harmony knowledge . . but had played just simple basic rock & roll . . and now wanted to learn how to solo over jazz chord changes . . what you instruct him to do? After you taught him the fingerings for the scales and arps . . explained the intervals, tensions, resolutions, enclosures, leading tones . . etc., how would you tell him to approach an improv over a ii V I . . . instead of the basic pents over a I IV V that he's been used to playing all his life?
"To teach, is to learn twice" So, as you're pretending to teach this make believe student . . you're actually deconstructing relearning and applying what you've already learned, just as you did when you were a ski instructor.
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