Do you plan and prepare your guitar solos - or do you make it up on the spot?

[henryrobinett]

I taught myself by pretending I was teaching an alien. I deconstructed what I knew and extrapolated what I knew I needed to know and decided that I wouldn't concern
myself with how long it took. Then I wrote this instruction manual in great detail for this alien (myself). And I went about following it.

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

Hi Finn
you misunderstood the message.
I employed that technique a few months in the past,only to analyze what I did, and reorganize my brain.
Since,I do improvise along a modal texture that I prepare,who is based on the harmony of the tune,but inside this texture,I Am totally free to play whatever I want
HB

[JazzOnSix]

Great topic! It's not an either/or for me. I've been doing both for as long as I can remember, once I realized that some of the greatest legends of jazz did their share of "planning" as a means-to-an-end. The modeling or "dry improv" is for the woodshed, when I'm trying to integrate specific language (not scales) and concepts into my wheelhouse. Doing so on a regular basis has really improved my spontaneous playing, which is when I definitely don't want to be doing a whole lot of thinking. I rarely play what I planned, but the ideas and their many variations rear their head as a result.

For what it's worth, pianist Chick Corea says that he still plans his solos ahead for upcoming studio recordings, then uses them as a template or outline for what he wants to get across on a given tune. Herbie (Hancock) says that to this day he continues to write model blues solos, which he started doing decades ago.

- Mark

[henryrobinett]

The only thing I do in prep is to know and understand the progression. I never prepare any licks. Interesting about Chick and Herbie. I didn't know that.

[docbop]

For what it's worth, pianist Chick Corea says that he still plans his solos ahead for upcoming studio recordings, then uses them as a template or outline for what he wants to get across on a given tune. Herbie (Hancock) says that to this day he continues to write model blues solos, which he started doing decades ago.

- Mark

Jaco talked about doing the same for bass solo on certain tunes. Jaco was an arranger so some of his solo were a constant work in progress rearranging constantly, but from what I've read it was only a few of solos. Chick Corea I kind of understand because he gets in to some poly-rhythms that take many measures to resolve. Herbie writing solos, but I've had instructors say writing a solo is slow speed improv. That you're slowly practising the thought process you want happening subconsciously when on the bandstand. I've heard many improv instructors say to write solos out as part of practice. Kenny Werner has a string exercise where you have set of chords, then pick a target notes for each resolution point you want. The string part what length of line to make to hit that target sometimes short other times long going past note and back to fit in time. He says write out and play them to critic them, but goal is to be able to play and create lines to target what you hear.

What amazing me is people who play a solo and know it note for note afterwards. I've seen it with studio players because they need to edit their solo per a producers request, but someone like the bassist Alain Caron can take a solo and then repeat it and discuss the entire solo. Funny hearing a sax player review his solo and the note everyone was wondering about he said "that was a finger flop" sax slang for unintended note.

Everyone works different, everyone brains have their preferred method of operation that's how we can keep making (hopefully) new lines from same twelve notes.

[henryrobinett]

Here's a quote from Keith Jarrett today I think it's appropriate somehow. I said the only prep I do is to know the progression. Knowing the material would be the same thing.

"There is no way to demystify jazz except by playing convincingly. It is a mysterious occupation. And the reason no musicologist, critic, virtual educator or brand-name can get a handle on it is this: jazz is about closeness to the material, a personal dance with the material, not the material itself. And this personal dance is validated not by the media, not by corporations, not by critics or reviewers, not by record companies, not by money, but only other dancers. A virtual dance doesn´t count in the real world of jazz. If the phrase “whatever is the most personal is the most universal” is true, it goes far towards explaining why the true jazz giants up to the present time are who they are: They dance up a storm."
K. Jarrett

[MarkRhodes]

Here's a quote from Keith Jarrett today I think it's appropriate somehow. I said the only prep I do is to know the progression. Knowing the material would be the same thing.

I enjoyed that. Bird, Satch, Wes, Charlie, they could sure dance, alright.
I also like this emphasis because dance is a physical act. One may have to think in order to choreograph, and think about the space one is in so as not to dance off the edge of the stage, but at bottom, it is an activity, something one does. The doing is the thing.

[markf]

Herbie (Hancock) says that to this day he continues to write model blues solos, which he started doing decades ago.

which is why his solos are so good.

This is unpopular, but I think

Improvising is way overrated.

Most people's solos are indistinguishable one from another, for the same player. Some of the earlier jazz players used to repeat their solos exactly, cause the solos were original and well known, recognizable. like louis armstrong on west end blues, the intro.

I think few players, not even many of the top players are improvising when playing as many notes, as fast, as most jazz players tend to do.

I doubt that there's much difference from one fast benson solo to the next. it's not possible. even charlie parker had a bunch of phrases he used many times. and he was probably a genius.

and slowing down, takes effort after years of practicing playing fast. plus of course people listening tend to be impressed by speed, more than a nice melody. I mean who sits down and says, today I'm going to practise playing a nice melody over these chords, based on the original melody. Monk said play less, and play the melody. Miles said play less didn't he?

branford marsalis interview this year july 2 .

"a lot of jazz is so repetitive, there's almost no improvisation in it at all"

But, Wizard who posted above, tends to play at slower speeds, without huge numbers of notes, can always be heard to

be creating new melodies, in

his takes posted at the monthly standards song thread.

[henryrobinett]

Working out a blues solo or a bop solo is not the same thing as performing it. I can see slowly working out ideas and constructing perfect solos for practice. But it didn't say he performed these solos.

[fep]

This is unpopular, but I think

Improvising is way overrated.

For me there is no magic when playing prearranged solos. Improvising is where the magic happens (for me way too infrequently though).

I do like melodic playing and slower speeds and sparse playing. (Given my abilities, playing fast ain't happening).

[henryrobinett]

I'm pretty much only interested in improv. I'm also interested in composition. Those are the two. If a musician is playing a solo and I find out it's composed I lose interest, even if it's really good. But the song, composition that the soloist IMPROVISES over or not gets my attention. Whether it's classical ie Shostokovich, Prokofiev or Duke I love detailed composition. But if someone is pretending to play extemporaneously but has actually worked it out will disappointment me every time. And I will think twice before listening to that person again, unless he's created a real track record of real improv. For instance if someone told me Freddie Hubbards first record were all composed solos from him I could forgive because he's clearly proven himself.

Improv overrated? What are you doing on a jazz guitar forum? Jazz is all about improv.

[woland]

woland - I typed a very detailed response. I'm sorry tapatalk ate it. Here's a recreation:

First of all I reject the notion from your trippy teacher. Secondly I believe we are all individual beings. We differ in our goals, purposes, desires, dreams, ambitions, needs, visions, aesthetic tastes, etc. We are not all the same person.

You can have one person who started playing guitar by age 8 and did nothing but play guitar. Took lessons and applied himself. Another didn't start until his late 20s and played an hour ever other night. Some value improv. Others not so much. Some get it right off the bat. Others never really do.

We all learn at different rates. We are all individuals. We are not the same.

Hmmm - we are almost on the opposite side of spectrum. For starters - yes each individual is different when you look with very fine granularity - every brain has unique set of synaptic connections and stores different memories. But on a higher (functional) level people have remarkable similarity as far as structure of brain regions goes.
I also believe that most people fall in a finite (and not very large) set of patterns - not just personality types - but almost on a phenotype level. So after a while you stop meeting truly new people - just another example of same pattern you are already familiar with.

[woland]

Herbie (Hancock) says that to this day he continues to write model blues solos, which he started doing decades ago.

- Mark

Good to know that I am not the only person struggling with blues ;-)

[woland]

Here's a quote from Keith Jarrett today I think it's appropriate somehow. I said the only prep I do is to know the progression. Knowing the material would be the same thing.

"There is no way to demystify jazz except by playing convincingly. It is a mysterious occupation. And the reason no musicologist, critic, virtual educator or brand-name can get a handle on it is this: jazz is about closeness to the material, a personal dance with the material, not the material itself. And this personal dance is validated not by the media, not by corporations, not by critics or reviewers, not by record companies, not by money, but only other dancers. A virtual dance doesn´t count in the real world of jazz. If the phrase “whatever is the most personal is the most universal” is true, it goes far towards explaining why the true jazz giants up to the present time are who they are: They dance up a storm."
K. Jarrett

Keith is easily one of my top fav musicians - just a few opening notes from "Koln Concert" and your mind is in better place. His quote echoes popular critique leveled against jazz - that is played mainly for other jazz musicians. But then again - is ANY true object of art done "for" anybody else? Or is it just the deep rooted need to create something new. And jazz has this cliche paradox of existing between adherence to well establish patterns and attempt to break from them.

[woland]

which is why his solos are so good.

This is unpopular, but I think

Improvising is way overrated.

Most people's solos are indistinguishable one from another, for the same player.

I know that there are people that analyze Coltrane's solos for patterns (cells etc) using software and statistical methods. I often wonder if it could be applied on more broad basis - to compare improvising musicians. Or even compare musical development of individual.

[henryrobinett]

Hmmm - we are almost on the opposite side of spectrum. For starters - yes each individual is different when you look with very fine granularity - every brain has unique set of synaptic connections and stores different memories. But on a higher (functional) level people have remarkable similarity as far as structure of brain regions goes.
I also believe that most people fall in a finite (and not very large) set of patterns - not just personality types - but almost on a phenotype level. So after a while you stop meeting truly new people - just another example of same pattern you are already familiar with.

Yes. We are at opposite ends of the spectrum. I don't believe we are our brains. I believe the brain is the nerve center of the body. But until someone can find proof where the seat of consciousness is the verdict is still out on that one.

On a practical level one must look at the wide variety of people. There are people who can play guitar, who can't, who are phenomenal and who are terrible, others who have no musical inclination whatsoever.

Some people are psychotic or sociopaths. Some people are so kind hearted they couldn't hurt a fly. Some people are driven others have zero ambition and can't do much more than watch tv if they have one. Some are geniuses others aren't. Done are killers and rapists and take advantage of children and little old ladies. Some are creative and invent things or are good with their hands. Handyman types. Others are athletic. Some are womanizers others would never cheat or lie or steal.

There are all kinds of people in the world. Looking at the world I can see that. I can see similarities and I can see differences. I can see conservatives and liberals, intellectuals and common folk or idiots. Men, women, multitudes of races. We are not the same as much as some people like to say we are. We are and we aren't. We are individuals.

[JazzinNY]

Here's an example of my noodling/preparation (this is a very familiar tune for me). You can probably see which chord grips I'm playing over:

That's some beautiful playing, Frank.

[JazzOnSix]

Interesting about Chick and Herbie. I didn't know that.

Many years ago Corea and Hancock were doing a national tour together, and I managed to catch them at the Masonic Auditorium (SF). The program that was handed out at the door contained a hotel room interview with Leonard Feather, discussing their roots and how they acquired their language. It turned out to be a light bulb moment for me.

Chick said that during the 60's he would spend as much as a year playing along with one of his jazz piano mentors. When Feather asked him if he meant "note-for-note," CC said that he "played until you could only tell that there was ONE piano in the room."

What struck me about Herbie was his admittance that with all of his classical training he had a really hard time playing the blues, and had to slowly play along with blues pianists until he finally began to make some progress. I don't know about anyone else, but as a player and educator I've always been fascinated by these kinds of path revelations.

- Mark

[henryrobinett]

I was at the same concert and got the same program and had similar epiphanies. Herbie said playing the blues never cane naturally. He had to really study it. And Chick memorized Bud Powell solos so well that years later after seeing film of Powell playing for the first time he duplicated Bud so thoroughly that his body bending in the same way.

[Stevebol]

I can only improvise. I can't even remember songs.
Whatever I say about music, do the opposite and you'll be fine.

[woland]

What struck me about Herbie was his admittance that with all of his classical training he had a really hard time playing the blues, and had to slowly play along with blues pianists until he finally began to make some progress. I don't know about anyone else, but as a player and educator I've always been fascinated by these kinds of path revelations.
- Mark

Very interesting. Blues was always the hardest thing for me. That quote from Joe pass about making error and then playing to make it it sound right simply does not apply in blues.

[Patrick2]

Working out a blues solo or a bop solo is not the same thing as performing it. I can see slowly working out ideas and constructing perfect solos for practice. But it didn't say he performed these solos.

I'm going to offer a disagreement with this Henry. Although, it may just be a disagreement in wording or semantics.

example: Sinatra, Streisand, Celine, Ella, Lady Day, Sassy, Torme, Joe Williams, Jarreau, Hartman . . . and endless others recited the exact same words each and ever time they sang (performed) a song. Yet, each of those songs were given as a vocal performance of previously written lyrics and melodies. The specific artists I reference never just *sang* a song . . most especially Streisand. They preformed that song . . vocally and visually with examples of animation and emotion. (live of course) Ella, Sassy and Torme did improvise (scat) withing the performance. But, the entire tune was performed.

I believe that it's similarly true of a jazz artist just regurgitating a previously written out solo. It's definitely not a spontaneous improvisation. But, it's a performance none the less.

[woland]

I'm going to offer a disagreement with this Henry. Although, it may just be a disagreement in wording or semantics.

example: Sinatra, Streisand, Celine, Ella, Lady Day, Sassy, Torme, Joe Williams, Jarreau, Hartman . . . and endless others recited the exact same words each and ever time they sang (performed) a song. Yet, each of those songs were given as a vocal performance of previously written lyrics and melodies. The specific artists I reference never just *sang* a song . . most especially Streisand. They preformed that song . . vocally and visually with examples of animation and emotion. (live of course) Ella, Sassy and Torme did improvise (scat) withing the performance. But, the entire tune was performed.

I believe that it's similarly true of a jazz artist just regurgitating a previously written out solo. It's definitely not a spontaneous improvisation. But, it's a performance none the less.

Same to even greater degree is true for classical music. Listen to Mozart's K331 played by a budget label unknown pianist from Elbonia then immediately go to say Murray Perahia (just happen to like his approach). I once did a blindfold test on my friends - asking them which version of music they preferred - I used one Frederic Mompou's preludes and recording by Alicia de Larrocha and some unknown pianist. I was rather surprised how few people picked the depth of Alicia's performance:

[Hyppolyte Bergamotte]

your opinions are too much cut,Henry !

spontaneous improvisation or regurgitation of a previously writted solo,we don ´t care,the important thing is:did we been touched by the music or not?
H.B

[henryrobinett]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying I don't like it. Patrick, you mentioned a lot of vocalists and not hardcore jazz instrumentalists or improvisers. I've seen Sassy about 6 times. She never performed those songs the same though there may have been a time when she performed her more popular songs note for note.