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I've run across the importance of playing long eighth note lines in a lot of places, among them the books of Joe Pass and Mimi Fox. It trains players to handle long lines, to make them musical and even (or swinging). I think that's a great part of the connecting game----you have to keep the ball rolling!
Originally Posted by fep
I'll admit that I've been hyper-focused on Benson picking lately ("No!") and have put less work in on this but this discussion has reminded how valuable that connecting game can be, so I'm back to doing a bit of it daily.
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07-31-2014 10:08 AM
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Well most instruments, notably piano, don't need other fingerings for each octave. Pretty much it's the same fingering up and down the keyboard. Sax players have an octave key. So a pianist needs 12 different ONE OCTAVE fingerings. Not bad. Quite an extraordinary difference. Originally Posted by ecj
I don't think in terms of positions. I think in terms of 7 scale patterns with 2 plus octaves in at least 4 of them. Meaning different fingerings for each and every octave. The advantage of course is these remain the same throughout all keys. BUT since the fingerings change they change what you're likely to play UNLESS YOU'VE MASTERED EACH FINGERING for all things in all circumstances.
A pianist can play a lick in any octave and it's the same unless he changes hands. I'm not whining. It's just that guitar is a bitch.
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For the naysayers. Have you spent much time getting good at the connecting game?
Just try the exercise. If you find it hard to do over something like Joy Spring then keep at it. I'm saying "if it's hard" because I really think this is for the beginners and intermediate players. Maybe not so beneficial for the advanced players, I wouldn't know.
I find that after working through the exercise over a tune and then after taking the hand cuffs off... Adding space, rhythmic variation, chromatics, licks etc.
I find that it really improves my improv., improv suddenly feels much easier. And I really know the tune. And it doesn't take too long to notice improvements.
Don't knock it if you haven't tried it.
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Another way to improve your arpeggio knowledge is to select a few strings, two or three, not necessary next to each other, and then play arpeggios using only these strings. Do this for a given arpeggio first, varying the strings, and then on a progression for a given set of strings.
This helps to ensure you can play any arpeggio from any note on any string. Takes a while
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+1 Originally Posted by fep
The connecting game was on the of the biggest eye openers for me, because you're learning arp's in a musical way, nut just memorizing a finger pattern. As you move on studying improv you will need this knowledge and to start knowing it not as a bunch of dots on a grid, but by scale degree (3rd, 7th, etc). That knowledge is necessary for learning about target tones, guide tones, approach notes, neighbour tones, and so on. All this things are a building process and master of one step is requires to fully grasp the next.
I'll give you glimspe of what came later for me studying with another. First we did the connecting game like currently being discussed, then it was expanded in two way. First no more position based pattens now it was range of the neck so from lets say 3rd fret to 15th fret you continue up or down neck till you run to a boundary. Second start expanding arpeggios up to the 13th. This was played again cycles of chord changes. Next start adding altered notes to the chords then its gets really hard trying to think fast enough to spot nearest chord tone included altered notes. Finally now start over same types of exercises but using scales over range of fingerboard. There's a glimpse of what's ahead.
These are things horn players do to practice and they don't have patterns to fall back on they have to know the notes from the start.
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I think it's essential. I don't do this exact exercise, but close enough. And have done my own version of it for 30 years!
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These are good points. I've been trying to spend more time playing one octave patterns on guitar, and thinking about the two octave scales as connecting two different patterns. Seems to be helping. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
When you say the "7 positions" do you mean Leavitt-style where your fingers cover specific frets, or do you mean the 3-note-per-string system where you shift up a half fret when when you get to the B string?
Just curious because it's always felt to me like the Leavitt stuff was better for arpeggios, while the 3nps system was better for scales and melodic patterns. You're far more advanced than I am as a soloist, so I'm curious about how you approach things.
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I agree that learning a different fingering for all 12 keys like a sax player does is actually an advantage, because there is a kinesthetic connection to absolute pitch. I played saxophone in middle school and high school BTW. Even taking into consideration alternate fingerings, each pitch feels like it's own beast on most instruments. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
For valve instruments, it may be a combination of embouchure and fingering, but it's still there. For guitarists, if you're blindfolded and aren't allowed to use open strings or feel for the nut, headstock, or neck joint , it's much more difficult to "feel" pitch. Any given scale "feels" like 12 other scales.
Imagine a piano keyboard in which there are black keys between every white key. While this may seem crazy, and any piano player would admit that this would make it many, many times more difficult to play, it's still less confounding than a guitar fretboard because this example only has two iterations. The guitar has five.
But wait. You would get all these new repeated patterns making it easier to play. Right? I think most musicians would agree that the pattern repetition that would result from this pretend system for keyboard layout would do nothing to compensate for the loss of kinesthetic pitch.
Pianist: "Wait. E flat melodic minor is fingered five different ways? No thanks. Keep your pattern repetition."
Absolutely...Guitar is a bitch.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 07-31-2014 at 03:28 PM.
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It is, it is. It may be easier than some instruments to sound okay on at a beginner level (-strum and warble) but man, 'further on up the road' it's an endless challenge. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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there have been many teachers throughout the years who have used some variation of the "connecting game" with their students. Jon Damian is one of them, Scott Henderson is another, and while not guitar specific, Tristano would have his students do similar sorts of exercises.
at the end of the day, it's about learning voice-leading. this is one particular way to focus on it.
what I like to do is really emphasize the connection between an arpeggio and its corresponding chord. you can do this for drop-2, drop-3, drop 2 and 4, even close voiced chords if it makes sense -- every chord voicing I learn, I practice its corresponding arpeggio and run it through various voice-leading scenarios (the Goodrick almanacs are very helpful in this regard). once you do this for a while, you get very quick at it no matter how unusual the voicing is.
practicing melodic voice-leading is a lot of work. practicing harmonic voice leading is a lot of work. trying to combine them as much as possible is all about trying to make the work more manageable. it's also, I've found, how many piano players work on things
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Singing note names is great. But, I would also recommend singing the intervals . . R, m3, P5 . . . etc. Originally Posted by GuyBoden
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Sorry. I don't know anything about the Leavitt system. Three notes per string. But my system puts it all together. The scales form the bedrock for the arpeggios and chords. One comprehensive system. I don't know any other system. I designed it myself. My arpeggios fit like a glove to the scale patterns. So I don't have a point of comparison but I can't believe the patterns aren't great for arpeggios. Originally Posted by ecj
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The Leavitt system just says you don't move your hand, and stretch your fingers instead. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
How do you do tabs in a post? That would make this easier.
The difference I'm getting at...
C major scale starting from second finger on the 6th string, 8th fret using the 3nps system might look like this:
E6: C-D
A5: E-F-G
D4: A-B-C
G3: D-E-F
B2: G-A-B
C1: C
Whereas most people play the Cmaj7 arp as:
E6: C
A5: E-G
D4: B-C
G3: E
B2: G
C1: B-C
So the arp has your playing everything in one position but the 3nps has you moving up to finger the B at the 12th fret, B string. Do you have arp fingerings that correspond to that shift?
Just curious, as I feel like most instructional materials use different systems for the arps and scales, which makes things even more confusing.
Have been noticing lately that a lot of the guys I really like (Benson, Henry Johnson, JC Stylles in his isntructional stuff) never stretch their fingers, at all, which is I think how those Segovia scales work?
Guitar is a bitch. You said it.
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My arpeggio for that pattern is:
E6: C
A5: E-G
D4: B-C
G3: E
B2: G-B
C1: C
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It gives me a further stretch up to the 3rd, E on the 1st string, whereas the former you're more or less run out by the time you hit C on the 1st. As I said my arpeggios fit the scale patterns. They were designed that way, even if they seem uncomfortable at first. Just like looking at a piano keyboard, the scales have to be ONE comprehensive thing or else they don't make a lot of sense.
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Do you keep the actual fingers that play the notes the same between the scales and the arps? That's what Bruno advocates, which makes a lot of sense to me. For example, is the "E" on the 9th fret, G string, played with the 3rd finger in both, or do you shift differently? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
I've been playing around with doing something like this because the 3nps fingerings are so damn comfortable for most things. I know Reg does it the opposite way and keeps his hand in one position for his scale fingerings.
Can't figure out what Benson is doing, if he even has "scale fingerings".
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I'm not anal about every finger being in their proper place. I was at one time. But basically yes, each finger plays the same in the scale pattern as the arpeggio. There are one or two exceptions for practicality.
I don't know what Bruno advocates.
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For reading purposes a lot of people don't like the 3 nps as you have to shift. But honestly I don't notice the shift at all. My thumb does it, meaning it's anchored allowing my hand to rotate and move effortlessly.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-31-2014 at 06:51 PM.
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Same here. His "positions" seem to be eight frets across and three strings high! Originally Posted by ecj
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I never played a horn, so I didn't know about the feel of various pitches. Interesting. Thanks for that insight. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
We seem to be seeking ways to limit the number of options we have on the guitar. While some advocate "maximal freedom" and want to be able to play everything any which way, I'm wondering how to keep things simple, to get the most of use out of the things I know best.
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I hear you. I did it by just flat out learning the fretboard. There's your maximal freedom.
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Hey ecj . . . here's an example of the Leavitt approach for finger stretches. The whole concept is centered around, the 2nd finger never moves. The fingering may require a FS1 . . (1st finger stretch) . . . or an FS4 . . (4th finger stretch). But, if your fingering is in the 5th position . . that would put your first finger at the 5th fret and the 2nd finger at the 6th fret. The 2nd finger would NEVER move out of position. Here's a chart with a superimposition of an arp, a scale and a chord. It also illustrates available tensions. Note the 1st-5th reference for the CMaj7. 1st finger 5th fret is the root. Then the 1st-4th on the Lydian IV. 1st finger 4th string is the root.
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Thanks, Patrick. I know the Leavitt system and have played through Modern Method. I was just curious about what Henry was using.
I don't see a lot of folks burning who use anything that looks like the Leavitt stuff. Reg might be the only one I can think of off the top of my head. Most of the guys seem to play more angularly across the neck, like Henry.
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and then shift positions for 3-octave exercises? Originally Posted by henryrobinett
do you use the same patterns for interval exercises?
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Ah. Ok. For myself I strongly disagree with the Leavitt method regarding the 2nd finger never moving out of position. Maybe that's why you don't see to many players burning with that approach. As I said earlier, I think its more tailor made for reading. But the 2nd finger is prime for being able to move. You can develop that stretch in between the 1st and 2nd finger. For example, if you're playing C-D-E on the 1st string, I play it with my 1st, 2nd and 4th fingers. The tendon is strong between the 1st and 2nd fingers. It's weak between the 3rd and 4th. I will never, ever play it 1-3-4. This is my experience anyway. I've seen injuries from students who put too much stress by stretching between the 3rd and 4th. I NEVER do that.
Also look at it this way. When you stretch between the 1-2 fingers the hand opens up. If you stretch between the 3-4 the hand contracts.
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