The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    We've all taken solos after good horn players have taken theirs. I played for over a decade in a trio with an alto sax player (now dead) who was a musical genius. he played so pretty it made my face ache to accompany him (from smiling) - it really hurt by the end of the first set very often - until i got my smiling chops up to speed. he was enormously proficient and knowledgeable but the point was the fluidity and grace of his phrasing. he made me sound like a loud typewriter.
    taking a solo after a good horn player always makes it totally obvious to me (so obvious i never really think directly about it) that the job in hand is to sound as much like that as possible and as little like a loud typewriter. (its like we have to find a way to sound like its breath that's producing the notes we play not hitting a metal string).

    what i mean is the influence of the horn is just totally fundamental - and its not really a matter of note choice but of phrasing and in particular fluidity in phrasing. (you could say plausibly that the fundamental thing with the horn is the voice - the natural (conversational) grace of the voice - so if you really want to be fundamental its the voice that matters for the guitar too. sure.)

    i can't help thinking it will always have been fundamental to jazz guitar players. jim hall always stresses it - its always the first thing he says (isn't it?) that he tries to play in a way which makes him sound more like a horn (moving up and down - bends etc.).

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  3. #27

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    I don't think my soloing takes a backseat to horn players in particular. I regularly play with some very good jazz tenor players and I probably play as good if not better than those guys. At least on par? LOL. There are advantages and disadvantages for each. I mean there are some monster players I've played with, but yeah that's more the player. They'll always be better players.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by henryrobinett
    I don't think my soloing takes a backseat to horn players in particular. I regularly play with some very good jazz tenor players and I probably play as good if not better than those guys. At least on par? LOL. There are advantages and disadvantages for each. I mean there are some monster players I've played with, but yeah that's more the player. They'll always be better players.
    i think electric guitar is a very different beast to an amplified archtop. you get voice-like sustain straight off with the electric guitar set-up - but not with the amplified archtop. harder to sound like a loud typewriter on a strat. i think that's a lot to do with why the electric guitar has taken over (been such a cultural phenomenon etc. etc.)

    if you're good enough to play at high tempos on an archtop you can easily sound choppy and harsh - i think lots of great players do sound that way quite often. one can sort of automatically accept this as part of the guitar sound - but jim hall sure as hell doesn't do that - for example - nor pete bernstein. even a player as smooth and accomplished as mark whitfield can sound like he's firing bullets at you rather than singing to you. no matter how hard Django plays it sounds like he is singing to you. (i don't mean to imply that all musical ideas have to be lyrical or even pretty - so this is difficult stuff to talk about). there needs to be elegance and grace in musical phrases - and i think its part of the essence of guitar playing (and to a lesser extent piano playing too) that you have to work extra-hard to get it.

    me - i don't like the way the electric guitar gives you a singing quality - and making a basically acoustic instrument sing (django has to be the clearest example?) takes real commitment.

  5. #29

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    After learning from guitar transcriptions for several years I started studying Cannonball Adderley from a book of his solos. It was crazy, he plays the same type licks but with more variations, more harmonic information, more chromaticism and speedy lines. The melodic content is also at a higher level.

    Sonny Stitt isn't as intense but his re-workings of Parker licks are amazingly melodic. Almost like a Bach etude sometimes (see Alone Together). His solos over jazz blues especially on Au Privave with Oscar Peterson are my favorite bebop solos ever.

    The Bergonzi solos I've found online, including a transcription of a C minor blues he plays for the pentatonic book/CD, are really full of amazing bebop ideas combined with modern sounding things.


    What do people think of the Omnibook? I've been learning those solos, the melodic content is amazing.

  6. #30

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    Yeah what's great about horn players is they'll teach you to breath and space your notes. Don't have to play a mile a minute unless it fits the piece.

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  7. #31

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    Somebody mentioned piano which is great too but I try and listen to every/all instruments and musical styles. There's inspiration everywhere. And play other instruments besides the guitar. It helps to see the entire spectrum. I think either Miles or Dizzy said that. Although they were talking about the piano.

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  8. #32

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    My musical world view is shaped by Lester Young players he influenced like Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz, Ted Brown, Paul Desmond, Zoot Sims, Allen Eger, Al Cohn, Stan Getz...

  9. #33

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    Desmond and Getz, mostly.

    Usually, horn players play so many notes I get overwhelmed. I don't even want to try to transcribe. But, Desmond and Getz are different. Hank Mobley may be another.

    I'm more influenced by pianists. I'm a Ralph Sharon fan. He influenced my comping. He was Tony Bennett's long time pianist.

    I play a solid body because I like more sustain (and hate feedback). I can't get my ideas out on a guitar where the notes decay too quickly. I think that makes solid body easier. On an archtop, I'd probably have to play more notes, and that's harder.

  10. #34

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    I learned a lot from Dexter Gordon and Chet Baker, because they don’t play so many notes I could follow their lines more easily.

  11. #35

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    Horns were high on my list in the past (due to my alto and tenor saxophone background, with a smidgen of trumpet). Last week, I was reminded when grabbing a couple of CD's for a road trip -

    Stan Getz - Best of the Verve Years Vol. I. All I can say is Wow to those recordings! These days, I'm listening more about bands that have guitar on the recording(s).

  12. #36

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    Even though I listen to mainly horn players, I think I'm more influenced by the plectrum than anything I listen to. I mean, it tries to come out, but through a pick instead of a mouthpiece.... Even back in the day when every guitarist wanted to, no-one sounded like Parker, but not because they couldn't get the notes to lay out on the guitar - it was because they couldn't match the phrasing, dynamics, note length/envelope or just the authority.

    And despite agreeing that we should see ourselves as musicians before "guitarists", it just doesn't hold water that the instrument of choice makes no difference to our voice. Witness people who play 2 or more instruments equally well, do they play the same way on each instrument? Not the one's I know...

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Even though I listen to mainly horn players, I think I'm more influenced by the plectrum than anything I listen to. I mean, it tries to come out, but through a pick instead of a mouthpiece.... Even back in the day when every guitarist wanted to, no-one sounded like Parker, but not because they couldn't get the notes to lay out on the guitar - it was because they couldn't match the phrasing, dynamics, note length/envelope or just the authority.

    And despite agreeing that we should see ourselves as musicians before "guitarists", it just doesn't hold water that the instrument of choice makes no difference to our voice. Witness people who play 2 or more instruments equally well, do they play the same way on each instrument? Not the one's I know...
    True but there are multi instrumentalists that have the same voice no matter what they play for better or worse. There are very few of them and sometimes I would think you'd like to sound different. Isn't that one of the reasons to play a different instrument? To get a different perspective. Haha I sure did use the word different a whole lot!

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  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Even though I listen to mainly horn players, I think I'm more influenced by the plectrum than anything I listen to. I mean, it tries to come out, but through a pick instead of a mouthpiece.... Even back in the day when every guitarist wanted to, no-one sounded like Parker, but not because they couldn't get the notes to lay out on the guitar - it was because they couldn't match the phrasing, dynamics, note length/envelope or just the authority.
    I wasn't able to play with pick when transcribing horn players. Fingers are fine, except when mimicking their staccato runs.

  15. #39

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    Which do you tend to think of when it comes to the horn, the trumpet or the saxophone? If saxophone is it alto, tenor, or less likely soprano?

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  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    ... The sax line comes from breath and thought. They really don't have to wrestle with the burden of shifting positions and physicality on the fingerboard the way guitarists do. They think of something really challenging and they hear it and a little wiggle of the fingers and it's out there. No positions, no weird finger stretches, no "shit what an awkward pinky stretch I've gotten myself into, no "Let me plug this lick in here while I get to an easier fingering" kind of thing.
    Guitar is physically... just weird.....
    David
    It's an old thread, but this post name checks some of the differences between the battle of the axes, but not all! I think the most important distinction is this: Guitarists have to synchronise movement between two hands in order to produce a note (or chord), and this synchronisation is complex due to the pick direction of the moment, string skips etc. Think about it, if all we had to do was simply press our fretting fingers down in order to produce a note, then we would be much closer to playing what we "hear" a lot sooner. Yes, technique can be developed to the point where the synchronisation is somewhat mastered, but by then many habits have been formed.

    It's like we're playing different instruments with each hand. That's why learning to play even simple scales or arpeggios fast and clean with good articulation can take years to execute on the guitar compared to just days on a sax or piano. Trumpet, well, that's a whole 'nother story!...

  17. #41

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    yes.... Coltrane and Parker especially. Love the flow of many horn players

  18. #42

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    I spent a lot of hours listening to Charlie Parker. I was taking lessons from Bill Thrasher in Santa Barbara when I lived in San Luis Obispo. I spent a lot of that 4 hour round trip singing along with Charlie Parker melodies and solos. I knew those solos pretty well even though I couldn't play them on guitar. Every once in a while I'll play a line and recognize that it's a Charlie Parker line.

    Jazz sax players do a lot of articulations... fall, shake, gliss, doit, scoop, bend, ghost notes, vibrato, etc. and timbre and dynamic variations. The hollow body, heavy string, jazz guitar, traditional style, as a culture doesn't have nearly the variety of articulations, timbre and dynamics of many horn players.

    It's ironic in that guitar is an instrument that is capable of so many articulations and dynamics. The rock and blues guitar players embrace the variety of articulations, timbre, and dynamics of guitar playing much more. Light strings and pedal boards do make it easier.

  19. #43

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    Yes, I am in my own clumsy way. I hear a horn and the way it breathes in my mind's ear. I don't hear a guitar. (I could not afford a sax as a teen and when I finally got one it was too noisy for my family so a guitar was the cheap quiet option. My earliest influences were all the great saxophonists and pianists. I am a guitar player with a sax problem and pianist envy.)

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
    I am a guitar player with a sax problem and pianist envy.
    Hah, nice one!

    I've really been into Johnny Hodges lately, but can't really find a way to play in his style without destroying my frets bending. Any thoughts?

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by p1p
    Hah, nice one!

    I've really been into Johnny Hodges lately, but can't really find a way to play in his style without destroying my frets bending. Any thoughts?
    Each instrument has strengths that give it a unique sound, and when it's played well, it's an enviable quality. I'd listen to Brecker, the nuance of dynamics and the vocal vibrato and realize I couldn't get that. I'd listen to Bill Evans, Fred Hersch, Monk, Nichols and Cecil Taylor and realize the range of that instrument was huge compared with guitar (clusters and tight voice leading). Cello had long legato sustain and vibrato... All those instruments made me jealous and aware of the limitations of the guitar. Well it made me play to strengths and try to find what could be done with the guitar that wasn't based on the particular instrumental "sound" but the potential for "expression" within the guitar. THat was my own solution. I increased the range of the instrument by adding a string, 7 string low B tuning, and opened up the nuance of the note by (gulp) removing the frets from my archtop. It's coming up on 5 months and after getting intonation solid (still ongoing for all speeds), that's been one solution. I guess to my younger self it'd be a radical solution but once I accepted that I needed to explore the means of achieving a certain lexicon of expression, the guitar as it is, was keeping me from that. That was a solution for me.
    Work with the instrument and what your ear tells you about the musical voice inside you and when working inside limitations doesn't cut it, expand the possibilities. Presently I have a fretless 7 string archtop and a fretless 7 solid body that I use with a volume pedal. And I work to play them as straight as I can, so it doesn't sound fretless, but when I need the nuance of the attack and sustain, that's what it's there for.
    Funny, bass players have less reservation about this approach than guitarists. That's a whole different thread I'm afraid.

    David

  22. #46

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    I go in phases.

    The main guitarists I’ve studied are not the most obvious ones for a bop player I think.... I’ve looked at a bit of Wes for instance but I’m certainly not an expert in playing that way.

    I spend a lot of time listening to music which is neither jazz nor guitar oriented. Although I also listen to that.

    Some people are more guitar focussed and that’s cool too. I think you have to take the guitar into account a bit to get the most out of the instrument. But trying to emulate another instrument or a voice can suggest new guitaristic things.

    The guitar players I tend to like have found a natural but characteristic way of working with the unique qualities of the guitar in jazz.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by TruthHertz
    Presently I have a fretless 7 string archtop and a fretless 7 solid body that I use with a volume pedal. And I work to play them as straight as I can, so it doesn't sound fretless, but when I need the nuance of the attack and sustain, that's what it's there for.
    Funny, bass players have less reservation about this approach than guitarists. That's a whole different thread I'm afraid.
    Volume pedal.. never used one, but I'm definitely intrigued now. Same with the whammy bar on my strat - never used it and not set up to, but considering it now. I'm primarily playing single note stuff.

  24. #48

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    I think I have been influenced by both, pretty much equally.

    What is interesting to me is that I always had these periods of intense listening to horn players only and then come back jazz guitarists and vice versa. I would be obsessed with Sonny Rollins or Freddie Hubbard for a while, and think ‘I can never do this on a guitar’ and be bummed out by the instrument, but then when I started listening to Jim Hall or Wes again I’d be reminded how great the instrument really can sound and be inspired again. This is still happening to me to this day by the way!

    I have been influenced a whole lot by horn players though. Coltrane, because, well, Coltrane. Charlie Parker taught me how bebop phrasing and making lines works - I remember taking out the Omnibook and learning a bunch of his solos, and learn to sing them. That helped a whole lot. I still recommend doing that to people that want to learn jazz phrasing. The same goes for Clifford Brown, his solos are perfectly carved out examples of bebop phrasing and transcribing him helped me a whole lot as well. But then again so did transcribing Wes and Joe Pass.

    Just my rambling/two cents. It is a very good and interesting topic but I actually never really thought about it, I just listened to things that I liked and took things from them, and is has been a great journey so far, so I guess it doesn’t really matter as long as you are enjoying it!

  25. #49

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    My favorite horn/trumpet players right now are Clifford Brown, Lee Morgan, and Woody Shaw!

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  26. #50

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    Saxophone Hank Mobley, Bird, Paul Desmond, Roland Kirk, and one that's not jazz Fela Kuti.

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