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Hi,
Lately I've been playing out a lot (which is good), almost always with piano players. I've gotten used to doing a lot of subbing of chords on my own (adding flat 9ths, 5ths, etc to Dominant 7 chords, etc.), which sounds great when I'm playing alone. However, when I play with piano players and I try to "jazz it up" with my subs, we clash. Probably because I'm altering chords and s/he is not.
How do I get around this? Part of me wants to say "just play 3rds and 7ths" to the player, but there's gotta be a better way...
Help?
Thanks
Charlie
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07-09-2014 11:46 AM
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Are you playing in an ensemble or are you doing duets?
When I play with a good pianist I tend to lay out. Rhythmically and harmonically the comping just clashes and tends to piss everyone off. One comping instrument is enough. I either trade off or layout. I play with pianists a lot. The guy I play the most with, we just have a telepathic thing -- one solo I'll comp, the other one he will. Or I'll do the first half of the tenor solo and then he'll take over. Depends on the music of course. I'll do the intro on one song, the next one he will. But the guitar and piano banging away at the same time? Almost never.
Also, yeah, sometimes I'll play guide tones, like a background horn player, or 3rds or 4ths work sometimes.
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I see more and more guitar players being like horn players and layout when not soloing and there is a piano player. Unless it's a piano player you've worked a lot with and know how to work with, laying out is probably best for the music. A big problem working with piano players is their favourite range to play in is a guitar only range, so a lot of clashes. This is part of why Sonny Rollins uses guitar players a lot instead of a piano, Sonny said the range of a piano is too big and can't be a problem.
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It should be noted that a lot depends on what kind of sound your group is going for. If it's classic jazz (pre-bop) you can do the Freddie Green thing at a very low, almost acoustic volume, and I think it sounds great.
Otherwise, I like to lay out and do little sound effects or use octaves to do "horn lines" occasionally.
Less is more.
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The problem with the Freddie Green thing is it sounds kind of corny if it's done too much. Obviously you're right - pre-bop, swing thing it works perfectly.
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Disclaimer: I don't play with any pro pianists...pianists tend to be the worst amateurs I am sometimes forced to play with...
Anyways, I also end up laying out a lot, but as I said I'm not playing with good jazz pianists. I'm playing with amateur pianists who don't understand the jazz thing and up overplaying all the time, lack listening and ensemble skills, and never lay out. Also, they are usually glued to the sheet music so they rarely look up to see what anyone is doing. If the pianist has lousy time (common) and the bassist needs the help, I might comp just a little bit.
On the Freddie Green thing, yeah it can sound corny. I usually only play on 2 and 4 if I'm in that time-keeper role...very rarely on all 4 beats. I hear this in the drummer-less, guitar-led bop trios of the 50's. Sort of like a snare drum.
When I see professionals play in groups with piano and guitar, they tend to take turns comping just as Henry mentioned.
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
For many years I played with amateurs pianists and had the same problems, so I played horn parts.
To my ears, amateurs playing Freddie Green style comping in a band with a pianist, but amplified, sounds terrible.
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My experiences w/ pianists is almost entirely in the Rock/R&B milieu.....even then, we would get together to assign parts so there isn't any clashing. That's in fields where their *isn't* much in the way of chord subs. I'm really good friends with one guy b/c of all the time we spent mind melding and analyzing Grateful Dead/Steely Dan songs.
Someone ought to be subbing....in a jazz combo w/ piano, that's the pianists job. Delineate and assign roles before performance and group rehearsal.
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Yes well in rock, pop and R&B formats it's all about coming up with parts; not so in jazz unless you're doing very arranged music, orchestrated.
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I must be misinterpreting you.
You could boil it down to three possible course of action....
1. Spend extra time with the pianist in question delineating responsibility (he'll be doing the majority of comping)
2. Fire the pianist & hire another (the new piano player is now doing the comping)
3. Fire the pianist and don't hire a replacement (you're doing the comping now....plus saving a load of cash on car insurance in the process.)
Assuming you still want to play w/ a pianist, you get to comp during the piano solos (or do split duty by your mutual understanding)
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Who are you referring this to?
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Step on that distortion box and turn up the volume!
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Originally Posted by Vladan
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In my experience, an amateur pianist who overplays during everyone else's solo does not suddenly develop good taste and jazz sensibilities when it's their turn to solo. Originally Posted by jds1978
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Never mind...I thought you were the OP Originally Posted by henryrobinett
My bad.
Back on topic: What does the drummer think about the pianist? If his/her rhythm is good then it probably is worth it to woodshed with him.
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Originally Posted by coolvinny
Oh...I see. If their head in always stuck in the chart nothing good is going to happen. Disregard everything I've said in this thread about trying to woodshed as it probably isn't going to help. It's one thing to have a chart for a quick reference; another to be alienated from the group and audience b/c you can't (or won't) memorize the form of a song
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The title of this thread makes my inner 9 year old giggle.
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I play regularly with a pianist--just a duo.
We have an unwritten rule...during each other's solos--the soloist controls the comping. Granted, this means more to mr. Tenn finger chord, but it works brilliantly.
Its also helpful he loves Herbie Hancock and has no problem sitting on his left hand.
But its great...I can go chordal on my solo and he'll just play a bassline, or a few stabs here snd there...and during his turn I can lay out completely, or play a few octaves, or go freddie green, or whatever...its about listening.
Its a blast. Moral of the story--talk to people. People have this idea that jazz musicians pull everything out of their ass. No. Talk it out.
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I did seldom - it was always challenging for me: two harmonic instruments with rather close tone....
I tried to keep in mind Nat King Cole trio, and early Oscar Peterson Trio with guitar instead of drums... in these trios I never had a feeling that pianists restricts himself to let guitar do its job - sounds very mcuh balanced, equal...
I remember Jim Hall/Bill Evans duo - great but in this record I sometimes had a weird feel that Bill restricts piano during his own solo a bit on purpose... playing bass line was not his style - so it sounds sometimes that he plays only with right hand as if he 'allowed' Jim to comp.... as if Bill comps with his line, and Jim's chordal comping is actually solo...
To me when I had these rare gigs the most importan idea immediately was that during solo the soloist must have capability to use his instrument without any ristrictions - otherwise what's the sence?
THis idea helped to arrange the whole thing immediately for any song and style
Becasue then the whole problem is reduced to how we agree about comping and I'll support mr.beaumont's advice - just speak over and agree...
in comping it is ok to restrict onself to whatever is needed to support soloist in doing his best.
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I gig with different pianist all the time. There are different styles of comping. I generally verbally talk with pianist if we haven't performed previously. Generally as stated by most, one covers changes and the other something different. Montuno like parts, rhythmic accent parts, line cliche like parts. Basically your like an arranger... your composing a part that accents or works with what the pianist is covering. You help build and accent sections. And change parts as Henry said is standard.
The harmonic thing can become a problem when a harmonic approach is not followed or established. Most hear standard chord patterns which imply the source for harmonic reference... the rest of the notes beyond the basic 7th chord notated.
This can become a problem... if you don't understand jazz harmony.
The other aspect which always helps is rhythmically where you play your changes, are they the blanket, the starting reference chord structure, generally played or implied on basic harmonic rhythm of tune. Or are you playing off that harmonic rhythm, off the implied Harmonic accent pattern, this is sometimes called the weak side. What your playing is setting up or reinforcing the strong side... the implied Harmonic rhythmic pattern.
Then... you need to always be aware of your lead line, the top note of the chords your playing. These top notes become a lead line melody. They function as a contrapuntal part that needs to work with what ever is going on in the tune.
They need to work with melody and what ever the pianist is playing during the head... and during solos they need to lock with the pianist to help create reference for the soloist.
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Lots of great advice here.
i also play with a very competent pianist. We talk nearly everything out. Most of rehearsal is spent discussing arrangement and what is happening harmonically, rhythmically. If there isn't some coordination between us it can get bad. And in the battle of piano vs guitar when they conflict, the guitar always loses, lol. It may seem like it defeats spontaneity, creativity but it's actually the opposite. Our parts compliment each other, they are distinct from each other and make for a better overall arrangement. As a guitar player I have learned to loathe the "mush" of guitar and piano comping on top of each other.
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Thought this would be of interest to the thread a pianist view of comping.
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I paraphrase a quote from Joe Pass: "If I'm playing with a piano, I defer to the piano because he's bigger."
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These are really incredible examples. I'm not sure why the King Cole trios work so well, because you almost never hear anyone pull that kind of comping off. Originally Posted by Jonah
Even in the later Diana Krall groups with Russell Malone, he plays way less than Oscar Moore did when he's comping. Oscar and Nat had some kind of crazy telepathic connection going on. I've heard enough bonus takes to know that a lot of it was pure improv, too.
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Hey Doc... thanks for Mulgrew clip, I always dug his playing. Met him in LA, mid 70s. Got a chance to gig with him a few times much later. He filled most of the space, and he dug slash chord, different triads over original bass movement, Difficult to hear the harmony. Great man, died way to young.
Made some good comments about accompanying.
I've also noticed over the years... that when the pianist and the guitarist... have the same goal in mind, the music. and don't mind working as a unit... the rhythmic section, as compared to backing up ME. Generally the performance works well.
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