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Hello!
i'm a beginner in jazz improvisation, so i would like to ask you, what do you think while improvising?
I mean, every jazz guy tells you that you are lost in music, when you are in trance while improvising ( when done right
) and i think its very hard to get to your free expression when you think all the time "ok, two counts than comes g7, ok 4 counts f#9, ok next is.. Oh, i forgot..., etc "
do you know what i mean? Its hard to describe
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06-22-2014 04:58 PM
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Do you have to think about writing your name? How to drive home from work?
A chord progression can be like that...if practiced enough...
Once you learn 50 jazz tunes or so, you realize there's two things in a whole bunch of good tunes--a bunch of stuff ypu're familar with and a curveball--something different and cool.
The familar stuff becomes writing your name...then you watch out for the curveballs.
The only way there is practice. Im 10 years all in and im first starting to see it!
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Think in chunks. The most basic chunks are ii-V, ii-V-I, and I-vi-ii-V. Start with songs that are on the simpler side. (This does not mean simplistic. They're great songs, true standards, just less daunting for novices than many others are.) "Summertime," "Satin Doll," "Song For My Father," "Watermelon Man," the blues in F and Bb. Come to think of it, all those tunes are on Jamey Aebersold's "Maiden Voyage" play-along, volume 54.
http://www.amazon.com/Maiden-Voyage-...yage+volume+54
There's information in that book about scales and chords, but the main thing is to start playing music, finding your way, getting used to playing in time with jazz musicians.
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You have to get to the point where you can play a tune and hear all the chord tones and the intervals of the progression, without thinking what the chords are, or thinking of any 'names' or 'numbers'. The only way I know how to do this is just play the tune so much that you know it inside out. This can take a long time. For me it means comping the chords, working out arpeggio patterns, playing all the chord tones, slowly creating melodic lines to follow the chord tones, making up a chord melody arrangement, etc. etc.
But it does get a bit easier as you learn more tunes, because you find the same elements of chord progressions occur in many tunes.
And the guitar helps a bit with its ability to transpose.
For example if you really practise playing 2-5-1 progressions a lot, this will eventually help you get through large chunks of any tune without having to think about those specific chords.
I reckon I can improvise something reasonable on 'Autumn Leaves' in any key, without even thinking what the key is, simply because I have played that tune so much that all its progressions are 'internalised', they are just sounds I can hear and follow.
But it can take years, no question!
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The thing is NOT to think. There's no time to think anyway. But you have to know your material well enough to not have to think. Good advice above.
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i think in chords yes ....
in the sense of "where i am in relation
to the tonic"
am i on the tonic ? (ie home)
or traveling to the tonic ?
or on the III7 traveling to the rel minor( the vi chord)
or here comes the modulation to the
Bridge up a tone
that kind of thing , not descrete notes or chords so much
but I think different people think different
ways ......
learning your arpegios will get you there
the fastest in my exp
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Eventually you can simply think of sounds. That's what I try doing. In functional harmony, there are dominant, subdominant, and tonic sounds. You can learn to hear for these sounds, "ignoring" what they are in real time, but playing a sound that goes around there, or implying your own sounds over something. This is where excessive practicing comes in, because in the practice room is when you think of all these things and come up with all these ways to get around these different sounds, like a ii V I, which is subdominant, dominant, tonic.
Think of a song like Speak Low, where you have 8 bars of ii V. A beginner will think of exactly that, measure by measure, but when you learn to ignore the written sheet, and start to play other sounds that aren't really ii V and are simply subdominant and dominant sounds, you can start to play over the barline, imply other harmonic figures, and come up with more interesting melodies.
This is also a step into non-functional harmony, where chords are more like sounds after sounds and are to be taken one by one, rather than as a chunk. If you start taking these sounds as what they are, rather than thinking of what the chord is, you'll come up with more interesting melodies over these chords.
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Originally Posted by pingu
I quoted this because the concept of "tonic" is completely unimportant to me in a jazz sense...I mean, I have an idea of what's "home," but when there's an "oddball " chord I have no care how it relates to the tonic, only how it relates to the movement its part of...
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"You don't have time to think up there. If you think . . you're dead" (Maverick, Top Gun) Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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This is true, I really don't have time to think especially after playing a lot of songs with no music available for the gig. some time ago I purposely started playing mostly by ear and discovered there are so many ways to play with chord subs and my ear grew a lot faster than my reading ability. I can read OK but really trust my ear much more to get what I want to say musically when I improvise. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
wiz
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"what do you think while improvising?"
I am in the flow of the music, ideally. Trance sounds mystic, but in effect, especially if I'm singing the melody, I'm making the music as I hear it. And I listen and follow a musical path dictated by the melody, bass, and implied harmonies. But I'm not "thinking" about it. I listening and feeling it.
Isn't it amazing how most of us with a singing voice can mimic and sing accurately a melody like All The Things You Are? But playing becomes an extension of that singing. And ultimately what you hear and feel. Emotions are connected with musical intervals and tensions and resolutions. Capturing that interplay in the form of ii7- V - I or other progression is key to playing jazz songs, but not unique in that there are other fundamental chord movements in jazz that must become as innate as possible. In my opinion the ideal is not to think but to 'sing'.
I follow a YT pianist of superb intuition and training who, as a composer and pianist of classical through jazz, suggests that music is all about intervals and emotional qualities of harmonies as expressed in major, minor, and all the sonorities that can be expressed with extensions such as the 9ths, 11ths, and 13ths. That emotional connection is visceral - the right melody and harmonies can make you feel that chill down your spine or the tear in your eye.
It is like being a painter with a palette of beautiful colors. My favorite quote I've seen lately is one attributed to Van Gogh. "I dream what I paint, and I paint what I dream." True. Of course, he was psychotic.
I do believe, and research recently seems to verify, that improvising is a form of "entrainment" with the part of our subconscious that tells the story of our experience in our nightly dreams. We 'dream' the music as we play. Of course, you have to play many long years to not sound like someone's nightmare. That is the woodshedding and theorizing and analyzing.....
Or, to put it in the immortal words of the great Joe Pass, "Learn tunes." Then, paint your dreams.
Jay
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this OP is a beginning improvisor
all this "i just feel it man"and "just go with the flow" stuff isn't gonna help him much is it ?
Can't you guys remember when you had to
work out the nuts and bolts of the really simple stuff ?
Arps isn't it ?
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It's more than arps, its practicing actual musical situations.
OP, take 10 jazz standards and just look at them...#of bars, #of bars per section, ii V's--major and minor, I vi ii V, etc...
You'll see all kinds of similarities. With practice--again, no shortcut, this stuff becomes second nature. There's nothing esoteric about being prepared.
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What do you think about, then?
If the answer is nothing, ideally, then it's nice to include some backup as to how that's possible. It's ALL about practice, this question.
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Take a guitarist on day one learning to play a D chord.
1st finger goes on the 3rd string (which one is the 1st string again?) on the 2nd fret.
3rd finger on the 2nd string 3rd fret.
2nd finger on the 1st string 2nd fret.
Got it, now how many strings do I strum?
Over varying lengths of time, said beginner guitarist learns to place all fingers simultaneously,
the only thought being "D chord". It becomes possible to make a chord change within a beat structure.
Perhaps, later the only thought will be the sound of the chord and not require even the name.
I am guessing that you can play the hell out of a D chord in the context of a song.
So how did you accomplish this? Many steps merge into a single gesture over time through familiarity.
Addressing chord changes as you describe is just a more advanced version of the same process.
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Well, actually, the OP's question was ""what do you think while improvising?" So I tried to answer the question from the perspective of a guitarist with fifty years of playing. Going back to the beginning, I believe that I always responded to the emotional and physical beauty of music, and like an addict chasing a high, tried to capture the magic of music. (Violins in the background...
) But seriously, advice about what to think about while improvising depends mightily upon where in their personal musical development the individual is. How sophisticated are their ears and technique? Simple test: ability to play fluidly by ear nursery rhymes like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. With swing...in all twelve keys...with modulations and substitutions...in thirds.... Oh, I forgot. And you have to learn to overanalyze things theoretically to death. Or at least the intervals and the circle of fifths.
My shorthand recipe to get to the point where you play what you hear and feel:
Start with a passion for music. Add as your foundation training in classical guitar for a few years, learning your Segovia Diatonic scales. Add determination and curiosity. Harmonize your scales, and learn the emerging chords as integral to your chord study. Buy a basic Jazz Standards for Guitar (Easy). Learn the songs you love by transcribing, recording, YT, videos and DVDs. Mix well. And bake at high intensity for fifty years....
At the of some 10,000 hours plus according to some "experts", your reward is the freedom to play what you hear and feel. But, it does not come without dedication, time, and some pain. Of course, some of us are masochistic....
Btw, if the original poster wants concrete advice, transcriptions, tips on using Sibelius, etc. many of us here including myself can assist.
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In the act of performing music live there is no time to "think" while performing. That does not mean that you play any note on the fretboard at random, like GC on a Saturday afternoon. But, the theoretical work happens in practice in the woodshed (how hip). The moment you lose your focus on the music live, you are not in the musical flow. I think Bill Evans had something to say about that.
This is different, of course, from explaining what you do or how you do it. I checked that nice Jimmy Bruno web site and played through with Jimmy. Nice couple of lessons. I harmonized his first one in thirds with him. Sounded nice. And the chord melody video of Green Dolphin Street was nice and illustrates the importance of learning the harmonic fragments of chords on the fretboard cold. One caveat - although it is important to study other guitarists and appropriate what they have to show you, I think it is wrong to imitate slavishly every approach verbatim to the detriment of learning to express what you hear and feel.
After all, There will never be another you.
Jay
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I have come to realize that the question becomes, the MORE one thinks about concrete and specific things in the practice room, the LESS one thinks about in performance.
It really is about those "10,000 hours". Or as Bird says, the mastery of the instrument. That all happens by making things second nature in the practice room, incorporating them into deeply into one's consciousness, like a second skin, through painstakingly thinking about them in a very explicit, clear, step-by-step and conscious way for hours, days, weeks, years on end.
How well does one know her workspace? At some point, the drop 2s and drop 3s should become automatic. At some point, not only every triad inversion should be so crystal clear, but specific chromatic or diatonic movements away or towards the triad from each note should become automatic. At some point, spread triads in the 5-3-1 voice dispersion with the "1" on the 1st or second strings should become automatic grips that take no conscious effort to reach or think about.
Lots of elbow grease to think and practice about before one can just "go out there and just play".
"How well does one know the workspace?" said Sid Jacobs. He was right.
The more we know our instrument, the more grips/voicings/cadences/progressions become automatic, the more we "just play". On an incrementally deeper and more satisfying level.
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There are some pros out there who say they do think of the chords when they're playing...at least in the "aware of the chord" sense. You can be aware of a chord without being shackled to it.
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Hey Mace...there are many ways to do most things...
I think all the time. I have no problem thinking about what I'm playing, what I want to play and what I'm going to play the next chorus or time through the tune I'm playing. All this and I can feel the music just fine. I get hired for most of my gigs because I feel the music well... I can lock and create that feel thing better than most. I was in the studio reading through and recording tunes the last two days... about 8hrs a day. Feeling the music... about 20 new tunes.
I can feel music while I sight read through for first time. I don't need to memorize etc.
I believe the thinking and feel concepts depend on how well you understand what your thinking about.
Obviously, thinking works well just as not thinking. What matters is how you want to approach playing.
I have very good ears... I can play without charts and fake my way through most tunes fairly easy. If, as Mr. B said, the chart doesn't follow typical form or harmonic common practice... I can feel or hear where it's going. But I can also think my way through... I know and understand harmony, I can think my way through changes and melodies also. Typical material.
What ever you practice, will be what you become good at.... read that again....
and what ever level your reach during that practice will generally be the highest level you'll be able to perform at.
Ex. Your ears will generally only work at performances, (be able to feel or hear)... what you've heard or felt before, at practice or previous gigs. You'll only be able to play as fast as you've ever practiced. Maybe the skill or technique will improve slightly during a performance... but generally your performances will be somewhere down the middle of your skill levels.
Most of the pros I work with have no problems thinking while they perform. Personally hearing involves thinking, beyond instinctive instincts, As a rhythm section performer... I need to be able to be aware of what's going on as well as what make be coming.
Some groups memorize material... and then perform. It depends on how you memorize music... I memorize in forms, and fill in the blanks. There's a complete spatial or form that doesn't need to be memorized and I fill in the blanks. I also also usually fill in the blanks from smaller spatial or sections of Form. I don't memorize as if everything is new... each moment is based on the previous moment etc...
Anyway... there are obviously different opinions.
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This "thinking/non-thinking" dyad creates an artificial dialectical opposition that I believe misrepresents the situation. Let's posit that you are playing a a traditional Jazz tune live in a group situation. Autumn Leaves. You know the song's melody and harmony already. You don't have to "think" measure by measure what is coming next, like it is some kind of surprise. You need to know the key and the style or feel of the song's arrangement - in Gm, for example, with a slow ballad feel or a more up-tempo beboppy thing. But, if you are playing the latter, you need to "respond" more than think, if only because the measures may fly by. Responding does not mean guessing or playing randomly. Nor does it imply being unaware of the harmonic setting and possibilities of the tune's chord progression and melody. It means listening to the other musicians and making choices intuitively. If that means "thinking", then call it that. But if you are thinking "ok, here comes a ii7-V ... what will I play?? "...poof - those two measures are already gone and the pianist is giving you the evil eye. Of course, even if you already went to the Magic Kingdom in the dressing room before performing, you can still respond instinctually to the music and you are not an automaton. But the best musicians listen to the others and play off them. Choice of feel, groove, chord substitutions can happen and you can think about 'em, but you better think damn fast.
I'm not disagreeing with Reg, who knows his stuff, but I think it is incorrect to make rigid either-or arguments about 'what do you think about when improvising'. I am more likely to be thinking about the hot blond beauty in the black minidress with the nice legs than about the chords. That can be a distraction, too.Last edited by targuit; 06-23-2014 at 02:37 PM.
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As a hobbyist, only if I know the song, can I just blow over it, but I've heard/seen professionals blow over songs they don't know, without the aid of written song sheet.
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The older you get, Mace, the more you will appreciate what Reg said there. Originally Posted by Reg
And it presents real questions, because there are lots of things to do on a guitar and not everyone does all of them. Joe Pass, for example, was great at playing walking bass lines on guitar while comping; not every good guitar player does that. Some good players use many more chord voicings than some other good players. It's important to realize what it is you want to become good at on the guitar. (And before you say "Everything!" you need to know that time you devote to A is time you can't devote to B, C, and D, so you have to know what your priorities are.) To take a simple example, some guys spend a phenomenal amount of time on their sound, while others seem to know no more about an amp than that it has an on / off switch. It's a difference in priorities.
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Chords are my reference points, I 'hear' the location of notes and intervals relative to chord shapes. My point of reference for arpeggios, scales, my licks, my vocabulary are all chord shapes. Soloing to me is similar to comping, I'm playing over the chord progression, I'm aware of the chords going by, I'm playing over those shapes.
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My 2 cents worth....
I think the commonly voiced comment about "not thinking" is a little misleading. I suggest that the experienced Jazz player will acquire a mindset where they are entirely familiar with the material they are playing, and as a result, during performance, the creative/musical/improvisational process is coming from a level which can only be described as sub-conscious. It's hard to describe, but it's almost like the player is listening to music from a source outside of themselves and reacting to that in the moment. It's like having absorbed so much of the music through listening and playing that the player instinctively feels the music as they're playing it, and that instinct dictates the player through an inherent sense of rightness. I've seen it referred to as "letting the music go through you".
On a more mundane level, I'd probably say that in soloing, thinking of what you're playing on the chord of the moment, and how you're going to continue/connect your line to the next chord is very important in developing fluency, after all, negotiating and expressing chord changes is a major part of the challenge of playing Jazz.
Equally important, is concentrating on the form of the tune. AB, AABA, ABAC etc. Solo order, trades etc.
How's my time ?, Am I swinging ? How's my tone ? Why is nobody listening ? Why is that guy looking at me like that.....? Did the landlord pass us some fake tenners when he paid us ? Only joking..... sort of.
Anyway, what do you think about....?
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