Do you think of chords when improvising?

[targuit]

Well, that was illuminating, Kojo. When you are not trying to play nursery rhymes, take a listen to a guy you might have heard of - Jim Raney. And Jamey Aebersold 's comments are incisive as well. "Do you think the ego falls away..."

[MarkRhodes]

What he describes and what I describe are the same. He may say he's thinking but that's what I call something else. Looking. You can't figure anything out when you're improvising. I'm trying to find the video interview with Rollins where he says that he can't think when he plays. He's tried. Nobody can. The music moves too fast.

It seems to me you're taking "thinking" to mean only "analyzing." One can't think of, say, all the tones in each chord flying by, but there's no need to do that. But it's also thinking to say, "hhm, let me slow down, play long notes, let the groove reassert itself, then fly through the bridge." Or, "the crowd's losing focus----need a little flash here." It's also thinking to tell yourself NOT to play some line you know you've been playing too much, or to realize 'my comping feels samey, need to switch voicings,' or simply, 'okay, time to end this thing.'

[Reg]

So examples of thinking about what I'm playing... sorry not actual nursery rhymes. But from my gigs yesterday.
Recording in afternoon... first, There is rarely just one chord, the harmony generally moves with the melodic line.

Maybe back in the 60's and 70's with the modal jams etc... not really there were harmonic patterns then to.

Anyway... over the changes. So I'm soloing over long AABA form, not Bebop, the A sections are 16 bars... so I want to set up 4 four bar phrases over each A section, So I play rhythmic kicks of...accented 8ths on downbeat of beat 1 and the up or + of beat two of first bar of each 4 bar phrase. The tunes up, around 230... no problem, rhythm section hears and now I can play off the accent kicks. I can develop lines, harmony etc... I'm thinking the whole time what I want to play. I could have thought about before and verbally set everything up... but why, personally what I was thinking is very similar to thinking about what the notes of a Cmaj7 chord are... just different.

Later at evening gig... playing Metheny tune... song for Bilboa, somewhat modalish tune. So sax starts his solo with outside slow outside rhythmic lines... I decide to just go with him, respond by playing counter slow melodic out of time lines. But I'm thinking I want to keep a harmonic shape going for him to play off. The tune has longer modal vamp sections with short 3/4 section between. So bass lays out, drummer and I keep long rhythmic pattern and I try and use modal pedal as somewhat of a thread for his chromatic lines.... sometimes the harmonic concept, ( or lack of concept) , of single line players need background. So my lines are out but also organized harmonically and rhythmically... there was a pocket, just not that obviously, and when we hit the 3/4 section it felt natural. I'm aware of what I'm playing, no zen meditation, just playing music, having fun etc...

Maybe I'm not thinking about what the notes of a Cmaj7 chord are... but I'm still thinking, it's all the same to me.

[targuit]

Reg, that's cool.

I think I do understand the awareness and the reactions or "thinking" that you are doing at 230 bpm tempo. I suppose some of us perform the same type of "harmonic awareness" without specific self-narration. Like I said before, it is like an athlete making a tough catch. Decisions are made. Awareness is there. Volition is not surrendered, but for some of us - like Jim Raney, Pat Metheny - there is a kind of 'nirvana moment' that can happen. I assume you did listen to Jim's conversation. The Pat Metheny reference is drawn from one of his video DVD (actually it was VCR - now caput) that I enjoyed immensely of the PMG. I will link the interview brief moments that Pat discusses it. EDIT - It's the interview clip off the "More Travels" DVD - excellent, btw, but I cannot find it on YT.

Remember that no one is suggesting that, as Jimmy Raney says, you do not need to know your theory, the fret board, musicianship skill - all acquired through woodshedding, reflection, and inquiry. In the moment of playing, no one is guessing or hacking away at the fretboard at random. But, some of us try to be so "in the flow" as to achieve that moment where the Ego or super critical "left brain" 'steps aside' to allow the 'subconscious' to take the wheel. That is wholly different from not being prepared, not having harmonic references or just plain guessing.

As Jimmy Raney says in the interview, paraphrasing, that moment is like dope - it's what we all are in the game for.

Not my words. I would add, I respect your ability and most of all multi-tasking. Plus you actually get paid for playing. Then again, I am a physician, which means I surely know about not getting paid....but "Virtuoso" is it's own reward - at least for Joe Pass. A pun, for those who don't get it.

Jay

[Reg]

Hey Targuit... I listened and have seen before, the Raney interview, and I've always dug his style etc... and I'm sure he means what he said, and that it's all true. Just doesn't work for me. Like I said at the beginning of this thread.... There are different approaches, and they can all work.

I know what works for me, I have... "nirvana moments", all the time, I just choose to believe Nirvana is in every moment of our lives, we tend to look for those moments from the outside as compared to our inside. Sorry not going to get that philosophical.

I really don't need to let my subconscious take control to be in the flow, do you have problems with being aware of what your doing, or results of what your consciously doing. Is there more truth within your subconscious... This musicianship thing is much deeper than I've ever imagined.

Like I said, most interviews are BS. Thanks for kind words... I think.

Hopefully the OP picked up some useful info.

That whole dope and in the game for it... really.

[Jonzo]

I was thinking specifically of the free online improvisation class that Berklee offered. The teacher was a xylophone player, and in the first video he talked about how some people learn scales by repeating patterns, but that he learned them by "playing with" them, or exploring them.

I would put someone like John McLaughlin at the opposite end of the spectrum. He practiced a lot of set patterns, and used those patterns creatively as chunks.

I'm not advocating for one approach over another--it is just something that I find interesting.

[OPherman47]

Jazz is a thinking mans game.... I work with my students all the time to can that auto pilot stuff that they bring from rock and blues.... Maybe after many many years they can go on some weird spirit guided route... But their problem is thinking they don't need to think... Reg has got it here in my opinion and if you read to be or not to bop about dizzie or the hard life and high times of charlie parker they definitely are in the thinking world that Reg talks about... If your new to this stuff it is a thinking game you are always thinking and that doesn't mean you aren't feeling at the same time

[eh6794]

I've only been playing jazz for less than a year, but I'd like to make two suggestions thats really helping me:

1. Write everything down. If you cant write in notation, then use regular notebook paper and have each line be a string. Tablature.

2. Record yourself playing a particular progression you like. Play it back then play notes over that progression. Write down what you liked.

Over time youll feel more and more comfortable. Youll recognize where the song on the radios going. But first you have to be comfortable putting your notes over a progression, and that takes time.

[Flat5]

I once attended an afternoon workshop hosted by both Herb Ellis and Joe Pass prior to their evening performance. A dude got up and asked:

Dude: "Joe, what are you thinking when you're soloing over D13b5b9
(chord #6, pg. 2 in Mickey Baker Book 1[my insertion, not his])"?

Joe: "I'm thinking D7".

Short, sweet and very much to the point. My interpretation, don't over think it.
Of course, one would have to know (and have practiced) how to play over D7
I have told this story here before but sometimes re-iteration helps (me, anyway).