Do you think of chords when improvising?

[coolvinny]

How does the story go...a young cat takes the first solo on a tune with some older cats in NY...the young cat plays seriously out there and eventually the band leader stops everyone and asks the young cat "What do you think you're doing?", to which the young cat responds "I'm just playing what I feel", so the old cat says: "Well, feel something in Eb, muthaF-er!"

[henryrobinett]

It depends on how you define THINK. I saw a recent interview with Sonny Rollins saying the same exact thing. You can't think that fast. LOOKING is not THINKING. Thinking is figuring something out. When I LOOK at chords I see the notes all across the fretboard. I don't think them. I might CONSIDER them. I might tell myself to slow down or don't get so complicated. But I'm not in a dither trying to decide where the b9 is or even if I want to play it. I hear it and I see it on the fretboard. I LOOK at chord changes on paper or in my mind, but I have nothing to THINK about. I'm reacting.

With reading it gets into thinking, at least for me. I have to count or have to decide where in the neck I'm going to position myself or I hope I can reach that high C I didn't see coming. That's thinking. Or sight reading a tune that goes from 4/4 to 7/8 to 5/4 to 3/8. I have to think. But if I'm playing Stella there's no thinking. Or Like Someone In Love, or Isn't It Romantic, Good Bait, ATTYA, Bye Bye Blackbird. I'm not thinking. I'm flying all over the neck looking at the fretboard in my mind singing the lines and playing.

[henryrobinett]

And of course I read too and play well while reading. I think I'm talking about a definition of the concept of thinking. And believe there's a confusion over semantics.

[zigzag]

Compared with the rest of this group, I would consider myself closer to the OP, so take this for what it is worth. I think that every improvisation owes an allegiance to the melody and the rhythm. It seems that the goal of all we practice is to play what we hear in our heads, and certainly all of the practice time we put in learning intervals, arps, scales/modes, and inversions broadens our aural experience and the options available to us. In my case, and IMO, my best improvisations are the ones where the melody dictates how I deviate and what I want to hang onto it.

It just seems to me that if we diminish the strength of the melody by focusing primarily on chords, arps, and scales, we can get to a point where it really doesn't matter what song we're playing.

(And now I'll duck and cover while the pros take back control of this thread.)

[mr. beaumont]

Did you ever think about how hard ot is not to think at all?

Its not thinking about the form...not thinking about the chord, or what you're going to play over it...thats the not thinking...

[henryrobinett]

That's kind of why so many musicians turned to meditation and eastern philosophies. One of the goals in meditation is to stop thinking.

I will say that learning how not to think is useless until you learn how to actually play! You have to think FIRST, otherwise the only thing you'll know how to play is basic dumb stuff.

[vinlander]

Despite being pretty much illiterate musically, I consider myself fortunate enough to have a very good set of ears and be able to improvise by singing without thinking at all over pretty much everything I hear being jazz or not. To sing is one thing, then one needs to express it on the fret board; tactile memory and relative pitch are my best friends. I do get into trouble over some unexpected changes however; then some chromatic may be necessary; but in the end everything can fit provided you know what to play after...is it good ? not always...

[henryrobinett]

Yeah. For myself and for what I'm trying to say, I'm not saying to only play intuitively and illiteracy is good and don't learn too much and don't think too hard. That's not what I'm saying. I like intellectual music and music that seems yo require a LOT of thought. I like playing a lot of complex music. Some of which you DO have to think through. But in my best playing I can just look at the fretboard in my mind and play the most complex changes without thinking. Even if I'm sight reading through changes while soloing. I don't know if I've articulated myself well enough.

[cosmic gumbo]

I seem to agree that not everyone defines the term "thinking" or "not thinking" in the same way as it relates to improv. I think the process involves the fact that you do have to think in the shed and also on the bandstand until you've reached that level where it's intuitive, and you can respond without using the intellectual process to sort things out.

Unfortunately, some folks would have you believe that you should hide in a cave until that point, which is a not in the tradition. The tradition is to shed and prepare, but still go out and be brave enough to make mistakes playing with others. Don't wait until you think you're invulnerable before you try to play jazz with others, because you're in for a rude awakening. You still have to learn to listen, respond, and play with others, can't do that in the shed. Heck, a lot of what you need to learn will be from the guys you play with.

Another comment about thinking, which might be misunderstood, involves advanced players. You've absorbed it all, you don't have to think, but now you know the multitude of different ways to approach the changes, you are relaxed, in the moment, and you can think about what references and strategies do I "choose" to use in my solo...or not.

[MarkRhodes]

Much of the "thinking" that we wish to avoid is anxiety. Anxiety can kill a performance. But it's not really thinking, although it sounds like thinking in your head. It's just nerves. A mantra might help. I think many musicians benefit from thinking in numbers rather than words.

[Reg]

So there it is... Basically very different approaches to improve.
Just a note, melodic or melody reference development is not the only approach for improve. It's definitely the main approach most talk about, but there are others, and generally both melodic and harmonic concepts are going on at the same time.

One other note, you can be in the moment and also ahead. I can interact and react to the moment and also be aware of where the tune might go, know that some moments imply that there is something that generally is coming.

Most seem to believe thinking gets in the way or it's not possible, maybe. When you remember as compared to reading a tune, how do you actually do that. I personally just see the chart in my head, or see a roman numerical analysis or reference with the melody, I hear music with notation. Or I see the tune on my guitar or piano.

Personally it's just music, the stars don't have to aline for my playing or solos to sound good or bad. The thinking process doesn't alter my solo, I'm not searching for my inner voice. When I play it's not someone or something speaking through me... The magical moments generally happen when I'm really concentrating.... Very organized thinking, when I keep my emotions together. But that's just me.

I agree with Henry about most standards, I don't need to think about what the melody or changes are etc.... But I generally do. Generally part of my job is being aware of what's going on and what the possibilities are
... What might be coming, when I'm backing a solois, that's what I'm doing, I follow and if they need reinforcing or more interaction... That's also what I do.

I don't change because a chart is thrown in front of me as compared to someone calling a standard at a gig. Maybe the concentration level. I don't believe there is only one way, or a right or wrong. But I do understand my approach.

[paulkogut]

Is there a situation where you're comfortable playing by ear? Maybe a simple 12-bar blues, where you know the scale pattern by heart, and can feel where the chords change without needing to count? What are your 'thoughts' in that situation? Maybe something like "this chorus I'll get quiet and then build back up" or " I should mix up some BB and Albert King licks" A lot of playing jazz is internalizing the material (scales, arpeggios, voicings, licks, forms, tunes) to the point that playing a tune like All The Things You Are is as 'simple' as that 12-bar blues.


There are plenty of situations where a jazz musician will 'think', but in my experience you only get one 'layer' of thought before things start to fall apart. In your example, I could see an unfamiliar chart and 'think' "the next chord is F#9, but I don't need to 'think' "What are the notes of F# Mixolydian, what are the fingerings in position or up and down a string, what are the altered tensions, what are the common tones with the previous and next chords, how do the open strings and harmonics relate to the tonal center" because I've practiced that stuff enough for it to be as simple as 'what do you play on a 12-bar blues shuffle"


There a lot of material to gather to be able to play jazz convincingly, it can seem slow and frustrating, but it's definitely possible and rewarding when you're successful. Best wishes for your music.


PK

[mr. beaumont]

That 'one layer' thing really rings true...

[MarkRhodes]

Then there's Joe Pass, who was once asked what he was thinking during a particular solo and he said, "That I had to pick up milk on the way home."

According to Carol Kaye, once she was playing with Joe and he got a look on his face that made her ask him later what he was thinking about then and he said, "How to get out of a corner I painted myself into."

Thinking doesn't have to mean "thinking what notes are in this chord or which chord comes next."

[vinlander]

Do we think before we speak in a conversation ? we might if we have in mind to move the conversation to a direction or to bring a point, but basically we are "reacting" to what is being told and we immediately answer without much thought...why some people end up with a foot in their mouth... Then when we cornered ourself in a discussion we might need to be "creative" to get ourselves out of there with dignity lol...There are people who are quick on the draw in a conversation and that is like being fast reacting in improvisation.
We all know the vocabulary and grammar rules we need to converse, but hardly do we need to really think as it happen.
I see a lot of similarities in music and language / conversation

[Reg]

I'm seeing that for many of you playing a tune by memory....is very different than playing a tune buy having a chart thrown in front of you.

And that as Paul said after one layer of thought... things begin to fall apart, hmmm.

So whats different, it's the same process for me, I don't change anything because I don't know the tune. I know music, there isn't much that's new.

Maybe if you don't sight read well or don't understand music... your not really thinking, your trying to make since of what you don't understand, come up with something you don't have all the info you need. So really all the thinking in the world isn't going to work... because your performance process is memorization of performance and application of those memories.
So if you haven memorized the performance... you really don't think, your just plugging in pieces... or something like that, anyway if you don't have pre recorded performances in your memory banks... you cant keep up with the music so your performance falls apart.... is that the one layered approach, I don't know, I'm trying to understand.

Obviously if your skill, technical skill levels aren't developed to the level of the music your trying to perform... your going to have problems also.

My performance doesn't fall apart because I have holes etc... before I start there's a complete shape and understanding of what I'm trying to do. I don't fall apart because I need to think.

[henryrobinett]

Reg - you don't think when you play. You're not doing what I'm calling thinking, for the most part, at least not what you're describing as such. I don't think you're backing a singer thinking, "Hm, I think I want to try and play a substitute for this dominant chord. Let's see,. . . hm. E7b9. What's the fingering again?"

No. Your fingers go to what YOU know you want them to play. There might be a momentary picture of a line of substitution, or you hear a line and play it, or approximate it. You aren't trying to figure anything out.
I play the same when I sight read chord changes or am sight reading a tune. Same thing. No one will hear the difference, I hope. Even if I'm unfamiliar with the changes, I can play the changes, unless they're really obscure and full of strange poly-chords, where I have to think and operate in a new or different way.

Backing a singer, reading a chart, - I'm not thinking. I'm looking and considering. I'm listening and hearing. I make decisions, but there's nothing to figure out. Transposing on the spot (I have to think transposing).

When someone LEARNS something - driving a car, walking, learning to read or learning another language, mathematical formulas - there's a tremendous effort as one is FORCED to think. That's also when mistakes happen. A baby trying to walk. You can see the EFFORT etched on his or her face. Taking your child out to teach them to drive, stopping, starting, ragged, nervousness - mistakes. There comes a point with all of these activities where you know it well enough where you don't HAVE to think. You operate. If you had to THINK which foot to start out on every time you wanted to walk, or how much force you need to lift each leg, you'd get run over within the day. Or if every time someone asked you your name you had to stop and try to figure it out, you wouldn't have any friends.

If you had to figure out how to play a CMaj7 chord each time you played a guitar you'd never be able to improvise. If you had to count every time to find out when you were supposed to play, or where the quarter note was, or had to say, "Blue-Ber-Ry" every time you had to play a triplet, or you had to figure out where the 3rds are, or the 7ths, tritones, 4ths, or you didn't know your major/minor scales - you would not be able to flow or even play well.

You KNOW this stuff. You don't have to THINK about it. Not everyone is there yet. There was a time you didn't know it. Whether you learned this by practicing or playing a lot, I don't know. Combination probably, like everybody else. But you learned how to KNOW on the guitar. You learned to KNOW music beyond the mechanical processes of thinking.

[mr. beaumont]

I like that, henry.

I also dig Reg's bit about seeing the chart in my head...I definitely see that, segments of it.

And yeah, there's the little thoughts that creep in...the "whatifs" too (thanks Shel Silverstein)

"Did I lock the car?"
"Man, I got a serious wedgie right now"
"The owner has his coat on, is he gonna leave? I didn't get paid yet"

[MarkRhodes]

When someone LEARNS something - driving a car, walking, learning to read or learning another language, mathematical formulas - there's a tremendous effort as one is FORCED to think. That's also when mistakes happen. A baby trying to walk. You can see the EFFORT etched on his or her face. Taking your child out to teach them to drive, stopping, starting, ragged, nervousness - mistakes. There comes a point with all of these activities where you know it well enough where you don't HAVE to think. You operate. If you had to THINK which foot to start out on every time you wanted to walk, or how much force you need to lift each leg, you'd get run over within the day. Or if every time someone asked you your name you had to stop and try to figure it out, you wouldn't have any friends.

But Henry, many people go for a drive in order TO think! o

But seriously, there is a difference between thinking of what notes make up a CMaj7 chord, say, and thinking about what you're going for while you play a tune. You may not do that, but I don't see how you can seriously say Reg, who claims to think while he plays, isn't really thinking. He's the only one of us who is inside his head. He's been a pro a long time. I think we have to take his word for what he says he's doing when he's playing.

[henryrobinett]

What he describes and what I describe are the same. He may say he's thinking but that's what I call something else. Looking. You can't figure anything out when you're improvising. I'm trying to find the video interview with Rollins where he says that he can't think when he plays. He's tried. Nobody can. The music moves too fast.

[ecj]

What ever you practice, will be what you become good at.... read that again....

and what ever level your reach during that practice will generally be the highest level you'll be able to perform at.

Ex. Your ears will generally only work at performances, (be able to feel or hear)... what you've heard or felt before, at practice or previous gigs. You'll only be able to play as fast as you've ever practiced. Maybe the skill or technique will improve slightly during a performance... but generally your performances will be somewhere down the middle of your skill levels.

Man, is this ever really, really, really ridiculously good advice. I wish someone had said that to me a long time ago. It's something I just started understanding this last year due to my general tendency to do everything wrong before finding the right path.

I think sometimes the concept of "improv" is vastly overstated in jazz. You aren't going to start magically playing some wonderful stuff that you've never practiced before. Just doesn't happen. There will be nice moments, and occasionally cool flashes of new inspiration, but you aren't going to just create awesome new technically cool licks that you've never played before on the bandstand.

Haven't gotten through the whole thread, yet, but I wanted to emphasize Reg's amazing point here. "Middle of your skill level" is so right. Just the other day I had a performance where I had a legit audience. Not a restaurant setting, but an actual stage with like 30 people sitting there in silence waiting for me to play.

I was okay, but I got really nervous and my hands weren't responding 100%. Didn't play my best, but I didn't suck. Couldn't pull off my neatest tricks, but I wasn't making mistakes. All my practice made sure that nerves didn't make me terrible, but I wasn't as good as I am in the practice room.

What I was thinking during the performance was, "Relax! Breathe! Relax!" If all the chords and grips hadn't been internalized to the extent that I wasn't even thinking about those parts of the music I would've just fallen apart.

[Bambus123]

Hello!

i'm a beginner in jazz improvisation, so i would like to ask you, what do you think while improvising?

I mean, every jazz guy tells you that you are lost in music, when you are in trance while improvising ( when done right ) and i think its very hard to get to your free expression when you think all the time "ok, two counts than comes g7, ok 4 counts f#9, ok next is.. Oh, i forgot..., etc "

do you know what i mean? Its hard to describe

I think I know what you mean. I am a beginner jazz player as well, and I have tried several approches to improvising. I have been confused with dorian, mixolydian, phrygian scales and so on, and have felt that my brain was unable to process information quick enough to be able to follow the chord changes and thinking of where to put my fingers at the same time.

I have signed up with Jimmy Bruno and have learned a lot from him in just a few weeks. I now feel that I can improvise a little without having to think too much about chords and scales

Recently I came across Ed Byrnes Linear Jazz Improvisation and his approach kind of made sense to me. I bought his book Functional Jazz Guitar. Here is some of the preface:

"Most of the guitar students I have taught had, when we met, been frustrated by contemporary jazz education, namely Chord Scale Theory, the reigning pedagogy through which students are taught jazz improvisation, since it doesn’t offer a clue as to what to say, supplying only the correct notes—seven at a time. The student who is left to figure out meaningful linguistic content on his or her own too often tends to flounder from having been sidetracked by practicing scales out of theoretical books in their back rooms, never even venturing out to play with others—the very point of learning guitar.
It would therefore be irresponsible to begin their tutelage with the finer points of Linear Jazz Improvisation, in which one learns how to use the salient information contained in specific compositions in melodic improvisation when they haven’t yet gained basic small jazz ensemble skills and an intimacy with the jazz language itself.


The latter begins with the blues forms and such functional skills as comping and soloing on cadences in various rhythmic styles. It is these essential skills that we shall attack head-on in this volume. We will do this artfully, and it is hoped that you will find these etudes to be as fun as they are educational."

[AlainJazz]

One thing you should never ever think about while improvising is "whoah that sounded like crap" even if it did. You should also not get over excited when you play something really cool. It should be as if it is not you playing at all and you're listening to someone else playing detached and thinking "wow everything this cat plays is awesome". You should also never think about how you're going to fit in that really cool lick you've been woodshedding for the past month. It has to just come out. Everybody thinks when they're playing. If I had to characterize my own thinking while playing I'd say that I'm very much focusing on listening to the harmony. The fingers go where my mind hears melodies and yes I am thinking about melodies too. Make sense?

[Reg]

Henry may be right... Who am I to argue...I just am always aware of what I'm playing and making coherent or conscious choices, I guess there are times I go auto pilot.... I just dont see the difference between thinking about what the notes of Cma7 are... as compared to thinking about what chord pattern and what lead line I want to use to replace that single chord...Cmaj7... and what I want to set up for next time around. Hearing and thinking are the same thing personally. Yes I can play what I hear, but I'm usually thinking about what I hear... Maybe that's my problem... I think to much.

Seriously... I'm always ahead of whats being played. I hear and adjust if needed but I'm always ahead. I don't feel and hear what's ahead, I think about it. Maybe that's why the music doesn't seem that fast to me. I always have a buffer.

I'm not even close the the level SR...in anything, He's very old school and I believe what he says.

Some words of wisdom... don't really pay attention to one liners and interviews that much... they're generally for entertainment.

[mr. beaumont]

"I'm always ahead of what's being played..."

Now we're on to something!

When I'm feeling smart and want to give an answer that would look cool in Guitar Player, I talk about three stages to guitar playing...
The stage where you tell your fingers to go, the stage where your fingers tell you where to go, and then a third stage, where you again, can truly tell your fingers where to go...

Maybe thats the kind of thinking Reg and Henry are doing, whether it's thinking or not in the traditional sense.