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  1. #1

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    I've been listening to many of the showcase posts and somewhat in general... most don't develop melodic lines through changes... the organization of what your playing tends to be short phrases somewhat reflecting the changes. Nothing wrong... but sometimes to have your performance have a balanced result, you need to train yourself to have organization of your phrasing.

    This is a developed skill, just as most techniques for performance are. Sometimes you need to also train and teach your ears to be aware of this concept.

    I believe it begins with being aware of "Form". Like, AABA etc... but the same concept is involved with all aspects of your playing... how you organize your performance or improve... spatially.

    Generally your not born with this skill and even with lots of trial and error, listening, transcribing or how ever you believe in developing your musicianship skills.... there are reasons why some solos feel right, balanced etc... beyond just because you like it...

    So basically the concept is be aware of spatial relationships of what your playing, (length of phrases), with reference to,

    1) the form of the "tune" and the forms within the tune. (macro and micro relationships).

    2) the form of what your "improvising"... over, with or under... in relationship to the tune.

    I'm not getting into your harmonic/melodic approach, Simply the length of your phrases and the organization between phrases.

    Example... take an eight bar section, call it "A".

    break it into four two bar sections... so now you have four phrases which may have an organized approach,
    you have a few different methods of how you want to organize them... (not just the changes)

    -By theme and variation or development... any melodic concept.
    -You have rhythmic organization
    -Range, dynamics and articulations
    etc...

    Generally most have trouble just playing two bar phrases, now move up to 16 bar tune and longer four bar phrases.

    You'll now find you'll also need organization within each phrase... you have Macro and micro levels of organization.

    Obviously when your performing you don't really go through this process... because if you have already trained yourself to naturally play with these basic performance concepts... they're instinctive. At least to the level of what you've developed. It doesn't just happen. And you'll develop the ability to have relationships of your phrasing within the entire Tune... and your complete improve or solo.

    I'm deliberately not getting into the details of what you choose to play within this concept... that's a different subject.

    Something to think about...

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  3. #2

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    What are people's suggestions on how to practice to achieve this goal?

    Two things I've heard mentioned in past are:

    1. Learn/memorize more melodies knowing melodies will think in longer phrases.

    2. Write lots of solos, set some parameters to adhere to and write solos, then play them. As they say writing solo is slow speed improv it is way of practising the mental aspect separate from the physical. When the guitar is in your hand you will be drawn in to using familiar patterns.

    Both are things with many benefits that I think could help develop thinking/playing in longer phrases.

    What do you all think or suggest?
    Last edited by docbop; 06-18-2014 at 05:34 PM.

  4. #3

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    Quote Originally Posted by docbop
    What are people's suggestions on how to practice to achieve this goal?

    Two things I've heard mentioned in past are:
    Uh, doc, you leave a little something out there? ;o)

  5. #4

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    This is something I work on but I have a long way to go. This hack's first thoughts are as follows:

    - if you're reading the tune then it's probably not going to happen unless you're a pro with all the skills and instincts that go along with being a pro. Big reason to memorize tunes...forces you to comprehend tunes in "chunks", rather than just chase chords.
    - call and response?

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    Uh, doc, you leave a little something out there? ;o)
    It's all there you just have to breathe in the ether and become one with the fretboard.


    Thoughts on how to develop melodic phrases that have balance-zen-dawg-jpg

  7. #6

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    My thoughts are pretty basic... not memorize solos etc... simply be aware of methods of balancing length of phrases. I'm not even thinking about the organization of what your playing... that can get even more subjective.

    It would be great idea to take solos you like and dislike and basically graph out the length of phrases. And sure the content and organization of the content would obviously be great.

    I've just noticed that many players don't naturally have organization or balance, besides what happens when playing phrases or melodic lines.

    I know I performed some pretty lousy solos and they tend to work and not sound as bad as the really are... simply because the form and balance of phrases... length.... helps hold them together.

    I don't believe this will make or break you at your next gig. But good players tend to hear and think in longer phrases.

    That doesn't mean nonstop ... longer melodies. I try to basically play melodies and use extra garbage that I choose to help create different effects that will enhance what I'm performing for the gig or where ever or for whom I'm performing for.

    Doc's ideas of memorizing melodies... can never hurt in any context, just as taking the time to compose solos on paper. Not really playing jazz... but incredible educational process. I'm composing every time I perform... just at a little faster tempo.

    Even if you just hear or feel what you play... you still need to educate that skill.

  8. #7

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    here's my advice : know the effing tune inside out. Know as many tunes as you can inside out, they tend to repeat themselves...

    11 or so years into this jazz thing im finally realizing how important this is...once you don't have to worry--at all--about form--no doubts in mind--you can start to think about this advanced stuff...or rather than think....sense it and feel your way through it on the fly...

    Im reminded of when i was 17 and thought i was hot sh^t and "felt" a pentatonic scale on everything. ..
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 06-19-2014 at 09:07 AM. Reason: langugae

  9. #8

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    I don't know if this is what you're referring to, but there was a way of structuring and writing that I became aware of when I had to write things in the western classical tradition. Sonata form, subject/countersubject exposition, recapitulation and resolution. It made me feel that something was lacking in the soloing process if I didn't have a thematic tie that held it all together. When writing an invention or "composing" on paper, there's a certain feeling of purpose and completion and I want that ideal to be something to strive for in a solo.
    I had the same feeling actually.
    But now I just think that means are absolutely different, for classical music active use of motivic development actually led to decline and finally to paradoxal emancipation of intonation.
    But in jazz on the contrary it was just a beginning.

    Actually when I first tried to play jazz I went completely in comping and chord melodies, because when it came to solo I did not actually see too many means to develop - seemed very poor.
    But when I listend to jazz masters I did not find it poor and that kept me going on checking what is going.

    Frankly I still think that means of motivic development are very much limited, but with experience I felt that the main difference with classics is about time feel (time meaning not rythm, but general time).
    I classical music there are differnt time feels also - linear which realized in classical sonata, or parallel|stable like Schubert's, combinative (Bach's) - but they all in any moment keep in mind the time of integral piece.
    And in jazz the concept of 'now' is prevalent... only what just happend and what will happen right after is really important.
    This understanding releases somehow and makes motivic development means much wider, because it turns out that when you repeat you do not repeat.
    The problem also that motivic development is hard to teach, the parameters involved are very basic and their relationships are very subtle and practicallly imposible to classify... it is very individual, like feel for a melody.
    If we are after ceratain style - I think licks are best to learn from becasue they show all the parameters at a time.
    Last edited by Jonah; 06-19-2014 at 03:35 AM.

  10. #9

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    I have found Hal Crook's 'How to Improvise' to be a most helpful resource for these concepts, which, I agree are often overlooked.There is a lot of emphasis on 'How' and 'When' to play-not just 'What' to play- and everything is laid out in a logical, organised way with accompanying exercises.

    Here's a few things covered in the book related to this discussion

    The play-rest approach
    phrase/solo length and shape/arc/contour
    note density
    playing on/behind/ahead of the beat (time feel)
    dynamics
    syncopation
    articulation
    over the barline phrasing
    Rhythmic embellishment
    Motivic development


    There's also 'Ready, Aim, Improvise' by the same author but I've not checked it out yet.

  11. #10

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    Very interesting subject. I'm chiming in after spending a couple of hours revising and editing my transcriptions of certain standards I'm trying to record. When you actually create tracks with different instrumental parts with Sibelius or other notation software, you realize immediately that you are creating the music. Not originally, as the composer, but making the music happen as you wish to hear it. That means translating what you hear as rhythm, intervals, and voicing into actual notation. The software does not do the work for you, like BIAB. You must create what you want to hear. As someone recently quoted Van Gogh - paraphrasing - " I dream my painting, and I paint my dream."

    Creating a solo or orchestrating a quintet. It is still the same principles of intervals and voicings and rhythms and time. As I create tracks for a song like Stardust, I am reminded of the brilliance of the composer of this timeless melody and harmonies. When we play standards, we must play in homage to the composers of these tunes. Because it is the melody and harmonic context that determines the motivic development kernel that we "improvise" on. You didn't compose the song. You are appropriating someone else's creative genius as you "compose" your solo. As is said of improvisation, it is a kind of spontaneous composition in time, though we all start with the composer's melody and harmonic context.

    The point of this is that playing a solo should be something that makes sense as sheet music. As Reg pointed out, somehow classic song forms do rule. Eight bars including a turnaround, eight bars more or the verse, the bridge with a change of key, and back to the verse. Thirty two bar songs. For some reason (symmetry? convention?) these meta-structures just seem to work naturally. I find that playing piano and notating music have worked in synergy with my guitar playing to focus my attention on the importance of the melody, guide tones for improv, and what I would call "improvising in-between the guide tones", with great importance to rhythmic figures and time.

    Sometimes I wonder why I am trying to "improve" the composer's melody and harmonization. Yet the instinct to sing in your own voice is there. Sometimes just playing the melody, others playing variations on the " notes in-between". The rise and fall of a melody, the leaps and steps along the way. It is all about the intervals from the tonic, imo. And half steps, as well as the rhythmic statement and phrasing, can make a world of difference between a solo that 'works' and one that sounds just ok.

    Though this is a nebulous subject, what I am trying to say is that when you play a solo, it is not very different from composing with notation software. You have to play (notate) what you hear. In the end, it is just about notes organized as intervals in a harmonic context, but you determine the time, the inflection, the rise and the fall. And in a sense it is absolute. It is 'right' or it is 'wrong'. And the difference can be just a half step or a dotted quarter note.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    I've been listening to many of the showcase posts and somewhat in general... most don't develop melodic lines through changes... the organization of what your playing tends to be short phrases somewhat reflecting the changes. Nothing wrong... but sometimes to have your performance have a balanced result, you need to train yourself to have organization of your phrasing.

    This is a developed skill, just as most techniques for performance are. Sometimes you need to also train and teach your ears to be aware of this concept.

    I believe it begins with being aware of "Form". Like, AABA etc... but the same concept is involved with all aspects of your playing... how you organize your performance or improve... spatially.

    Generally your not born with this skill and even with lots of trial and error, listening, transcribing or how ever you believe in developing your musicianship skills.... there are reasons why some solos feel right, balanced etc... beyond just because you like it...

    So basically the concept is be aware of spatial relationships of what your playing, (length of phrases), with reference to,

    1) the form of the "tune" and the forms within the tune. (macro and micro relationships).

    2) the form of what your "improvising"... over, with or under... in relationship to the tune.

    I'm not getting into your harmonic/melodic approach, Simply the length of your phrases and the organization between phrases.

    Example... take an eight bar section, call it "A".

    break it into four two bar sections... so now you have four phrases which may have an organized approach,
    you have a few different methods of how you want to organize them... (not just the changes)

    -By theme and variation or development... any melodic concept.
    -You have rhythmic organization
    -Range, dynamics and articulations
    etc...

    Generally most have trouble just playing two bar phrases, now move up to 16 bar tune and longer four bar phrases.

    You'll now find you'll also need organization within each phrase... you have Macro and micro levels of organization.

    Obviously when your performing you don't really go through this process... because if you have already trained yourself to naturally play with these basic performance concepts... they're instinctive. At least to the level of what you've developed. It doesn't just happen. And you'll develop the ability to have relationships of your phrasing within the entire Tune... and your complete improve or solo.

    I'm deliberately not getting into the details of what you choose to play within this concept... that's a different subject.

    Something to think about...
    Good post Reg, good info, I like to practice consciously trying to hear my improv phrases over harmony without actually playing them, the mechanics of playing the phrases can be learned afterwards.

  13. #12

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    Yea some interesting thoughts, Jonah that's basically what I'm trying to open eyes to. Jeffs point of memorizing melodies is the standard method of developing this skill. The melodies from tunes already have this spatial or length of time concept together.

    But developing this skill to naturally feel relationships of lengths of time.... the length of each phrase you play in relationship to the length of the Form and form of each section, ...... in my opinion, this skill develops and becomes more natural or balanced when you physically take the time to think about different applications.

    As compared to letting this skill, or lack of skill just develop within yourself. Somewhat as simple as being aware of chord tones from taking the time to understand what chord tones are... as compared to just playing and feeling what notes work better in different situations, and eventually from trial and error coming up with what you feel is cool.

    All the other points mentioned about how to organize what your hearing/playing within those lengths of time, the length of your phrases is obviously incredibly important and those contents also help determine and influence what we're discussing...but if you begin with the length of time... or phrase length basics, and then fill those slots of time. I believe you'll develop the skill we're talking about.

    I mean if your having trouble memorizing tunes, do you wonder why. Generally unless you have photographic memory or are a freak... it's difficult to memorize all the tunes, even when you play all the time. But when you use a method or some type of device to organize how you memorize tunes... it becomes somewhat easier. Most can easily remember blues tunes, basic bop AABA tunes etc...personal op. because you already have a understanding of the spatial form of what your trying to play. Your just filling in the pieced as compared to having the pieces related to each other as method of memorization.

    Anyway... maybe it's time for examples? This is very busy time of year... late nights and I'm lazy. But we can pick a few heads and discuss length of time of phrases and maybe see the relationships to soloing. Don't get hung up on what your playing... it's difficult to develop multiple skills at once. They tend to blend and become one general skill with no expertise of each individual skill. Which usually leads to misunderstandings and you hit walls with your playing.

  14. #13

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    Actually I had some practical problems with long lines and with their relation to form...

    to play long lines really helpful for me was an idea 'to freeze the time' - there are 16 bars in comping but when I play long line over it I think of it just as of 'right now' - it is like detalization of momentary feel... when I think so, I relax and do not have worris of being in time or in harmony correctly - because there is like no time going... and the idea is only to set correctly the limits of this 'frozen moment' and this is connested with changes and rythm of the song etc....
    this idea can work also more complex, when these 'moments' overlap... or I see another 'moment' within a bigger one etc.
    Maybe it's too vague - sorry...

    I also conciously developed ideas how to play longer lines not over but against the given form of song, like simply i-vi-ii-v/i and I want to start line from fror example last beat of vi and then not to play next changes like ii-v-i or a cadence but like going somewhere far behind this tonic chord, like overlapping... I could hear it in many records, but could not play like I wanted, so I kind of estimated notes 'where-what to play' to get this feeling... it also gives lots of opportunities if not to stop only on one simplest solution but to combine this line with the next one fluidely

    And also short almost unnoticeable motives played in double-time are very useful... even two-three notes played like this is very expressive moving

    But anyway - frankly it all begins in my head, so for me it has always been 'how to correspond what in my head to fingerboard'

  15. #14

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    Good topic, and not necessarily an advanced one, although you'd think so because only advanced players seem to phrase meaningfully, often. Me, I just make sure I listen to plenty Wes, Miles or Rollins. I'll never play like them but after a while, I hope their phrasing seeps into my musical consciousness, or something....

  16. #15

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    Yea... when singled out, very simple basic concept. Somewhat like when you walk... you take steps. You generally don't hop around on one leg.

    Ok lets be honest... how many have though about this very simple, basic concept of performance, to the point of trying to physically understand just what it is. Is it really even important.

  17. #16

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    I think it's important...I think its what separates the men from the boys, even...says this boy

    Again, its one of those things I get glimpses of...when im really locked in, and I can sense the form, and hear a solo that really fits...what I havent done enough of is practicing the concept...I think maybe ive thought of it too much as I practice all of these situations and internalize, internalize, internalize and THEN it can happen...so the end sum of many skills firing off at once as opposed to actually approaching it as a learnable skill.

    So this thread is very interesting to me.

    Here, let me put myself out there...I think this video is a picture perfect example of mediocre playing



    I post this because I think there's moments in the solo of several types of playing. There's some instances where im truly hearing a melody and following it...there's moments where im just making the changes...theres moments of "fishing," following an idea and starting to "think" too much and getting lost in yhe form...and some other odds and ends moments too...

    Anyway, lets continue this discussion...im positive I can get something from it.

  18. #17

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    Well, that's an interesting question Reg, and I can only speak for myself when I say that I tend not to single out specific exercises for rhythm or phrasing because I feel that the other stuff (note choices etc) is harder and demands more attention. However I do a fair bit of "finger drumming" soloing along with records, does that count as phrasing practice?

  19. #18

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    The groove is very important. If you start with the blues, the two or four bar call-and-response patterns can be set up by the number of measures and you pick a tempo. On the guitar or piano accompaniment, set up block chords as whole or half beat changes, with an occasional quarter beat measure, especially on the turns and intros. Then, improvise a sung vocal melody with attention to the rise and fall and the strong/weak beats and time values as you play against your accompaniment. The arrangement will force you to think rhythmically and delineate your phrasing. Use your guide tones.

    If your melody sounds good, refine the rhythm. Use the root tones of your chord progression as a walking bass and play the melody harmonizing in various positions. And you use the circle of fifths for refining your progression, adding b5ths, sevenths, and other extensions to "jazz" it up to taste. If you can sing, try writing some harmony to the melody in thirds or sixths on occasion for the guitar, as well as using the vocal whole and half notes for creating guitar fills. If you cannot sing well, use your melody as the basis of a lead guitar track if you like.

    If these suggestions are too rudimentary, of course, one can delve into melodic techniques in more sophistication. But this is one way to write an original song and distill your phrasing.

  20. #19

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    Really great thread with an abundance of very useful info. Reg . . . you're priceless in what you bring to this forum.

    In the context of "a picture is worth a thousand words" . . . if any of you care to hear a perfect example (IMO) of what Reg has been saying here . . Tal Farlow recorded a tune called "It's You or No One", which I've mentioned here before. It's on a CD titled "Tal Farlow . . Verve Jazz Masters 41". I tried desperately to include a link up to it from my computer files . . but, no luck . . . I'm truly a computer dummy. His improv builds beautifully along a well stated motivic approach. He sometimes quotes the melody/head and incorporates that into the context of the improv. His phrasing actually tell you a story. It's probably the best and most melodic improve I've ever heard, in terms of motif, melodic developement and embellishment of the actual melody/head.

    Tal Farlow - Verve Jazz Masters 41 CD Album

  21. #20

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    Sounded pretty good to me, Jeff. Mild exception, the very beginning was a bit unsure. What are you using for your backing rhythm tracks? And what are your recording the video on? Pretty nice audio. Parenthesis - I have been hankering to pick up the new MacBook BIAB 2014 for the Real Tracks stuff. Don't have one now, but the wife would likely veto this verboten expense....(sigh)

  22. #21

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    Nice clam five notes in, right?

    This was recorded on my ipad, with my phone sitting next to it with an iReal book track playing...not a professional recording, by any stretch, but good enough to illustrate a point, I think.

  23. #22

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    I would imagine most don't think about or work at it intensely because it can be a little painful and really hard work at first (talking first hand experience here)....I mean try playing over an entire chorus or two or five with ONE general melodic and/or rhythmic idea....no deviations (and keep it interesting, at least in the practice sense)....all your pet licks go out the window....

    Last fall I spent a few solid months really trying to open some doors with this type of stuff..... working mostly with some of Jerry Bergonzi's material that is specifically focused on this concept....Don't know how much has really helped me, probably a little, but I still suck at it. Like Jeff said I get glimpses of it and then blow it by losing the form or where I'm at in the tune. Maybe some famous recorded examples for reference would help move this from just talk....

  24. #23

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    You get a percussion track with i real book? I don't have an i Pad, but I did get a 'smart' phone recently. Is the i-Real book for phones and i-Pads? That would be handy, except I probably couldn't 'read' it properly without my reading glasses. Hate that.

    Patrick - nice site link. I couldn't get that track to play, but I listened to Out Of Nowhere and a couple of others. One important thing is to limit one's playing so you play what is essential. Of course it does depend on the setting - solo, trio, quintet, etc. But honing the notes to the essential and 'exciting' or beautiful lines is key. Anyone playing more than a couple of choruses as a solo begins to bore me often.
    Even the greats.
    Last edited by targuit; 06-19-2014 at 12:52 PM.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... when singled out, very simple basic concept. Somewhat like when you walk... you take steps. You generally don't hop around on one leg.

    Ok lets be honest... how many have though about this very simple, basic concept of performance, to the point of trying to physically understand just what it is. Is it really even important.
    I think this idea of phrase length is an important idea. I think anything that brings structure to a solo, that allows a listener to recognize a pattern, is important. As previously mentioned we can often times ramble and say very little but by giving it phrase length structure it becomes somewhat recognizable as a statement. Add a specific motif to that phrase and carry it across harmonic changes and you've added further structure. This is very common in the B section of many standards.

    For me the hardest thing is maintaining the discipline and patience to really develop a melodic line/motif. It's so easy to just move on to something else but in doing so I think I lose that structure that the listener's ear needs. Lastly, tying all of it together to form a cohesive solo overall is probably the hardest thing to do but if done really leaves an impact.

    I can't recall if Hank Mobley had been mentioned previously as someone who develops a solo but below I think is a good example of it.


  26. #25

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    I agree that phrase length is a structural element that benefits from some limitation of the number of measures in the classic song forms. Really enjoyed that Hank Mobley cut. I also like to call that critical intentionality of the phrasing and the shaping of the lines. Hank clearly knew where he wanted his lines to go in the harmonic context. And the rhythmic element of his melodic phrases is so important. Noted the same thing in the pianist Wynton Kelly solo. And the walking bass of Paul Chambers is classic. So cool to hear something new to me. (I think...) I know I don't have this CD - yet.