Mick goodrick advice, opinions please.

[unit9]

Hi everyone, new to the forum, here is my first question. What do you guys or girls think to Mick goodricks advice about learning to improvise on one string before moving on to two then three and so on. As he says and I think I agree you instantly are playing up and down the neck and are not stuck in one position as often happens when we learn to play by learning positions first. He also mentions how easy it is to see note relations in a more linear manner. He claims in his book that this style of teaching is missing from most guitar methods, so what do you all think. Sorry if this subject has been covered already.

[mr. beaumont]

I like the idea of it...but I also think you need to copy licks from players and know your chords and arpeggios...

The one string thing is great because it forces you to think melodically...but I also think if you want to play bop lines, you gotta practice playing bop lines.

[unit9]

Thank you so much for you reply Mr Beaumont, Bop is definitely my goal, would you say that bebop players tend to use a lot of pre learned licks then as opposed to pure made up lines.Oh and hello to you Mr Beaumont, as a long time lurker I have read and enjoyed many of your posts.

[Jonzo]

This is an impossible question to answer with any certainty, because no one can compare starting with one and then the other. You only have one opportunity to start something.

I would be interested in hearing from people who started with mastering playing on single strings in all keys first, as I have never heard of anyone taking that route. The benefits that Goodrich discusses make theoretical sense. The reason most people start with patterns is because they make it easier to get up and running, but the difficulties of learning single strings first may make for deeper learning in the long run.

Of course, you could also spend equal time on both from the outset.

[unit9]

Hello Jonzo nice to meet you, yeah I think you make a good point about position playing getting you up and running fast which I think is important with beginners to prevent them getting discouraged. I have to admit that it has helped me to see the scales in a much easier way than I have when playing a scale across the neck. I cannot deny that I am mystified that more of the method books of which I own many do not seem to mention this technique, as Mick says it seems such an obvious thing, hidden in the eye of the sun(his words not mine). I would love to hear if anyone disagrees with his views on this approach.

[srlank]

"Of course, you could also spend equal time on both from the outset."

I wish I had tried to do this in the beginning. I learned set patterns first when practicing, but when playing I noticed I often would follow a line of phrasing up the neck and frequently get lost. So I've been trying to focus more on various ways to learn the neck from nut to bridge. (I think that is referred to as horizontal?) Some other ways of helping in this area are playing drop-inversions up the neck or harmonizing a voicing or interval up the neck and keeping reference points.

[unit9]

Hello srlank, I agree you could learn both from the outset, I think Mick Goodricks idea in his book the advancing guitarist, is that as you add more strings that patterns then begin to emerge. I am not suggesting that one way is better than the other as I am in no way qualified to do that, I was more interested in what others thought about it. Oh and thank you for your replies, I am having a ball on my new forum.

[TH]

I've got some students who play open tunings, DADGAD, open G, etc. and their lines are definitely more lyrical, more voice like, and less inclined to fall into a cliché pattern. They are naturally guided towards playing up and down the neck and not across. But that's not to say they are going to be great players from it, it's just saying that there are things we play that come from practice of kinesthetics, the habits of the hands, and there are those that come from a spacial relationship. The two are not mutually exclusive, but for spacial relationships, you can't avoid that when you're playing up and down the string.
I think it's one reason I found it easier as a child to make melodies on the piano. It's spaced with up and down right there in front of you.
The guitar IS chaotic. You can go up and down by going across. You can go up the scale by playing down the neck. And if you learn by grabs, patterns, grids and licks, it will surely give you proficiency, or a ticket out of chaos, but it can be a train that keeps you on one car. Mick's idea makes a lot of sense to achieve a global sense of musicality on the guitar.
But that's not everyone's goal. It's just one person's take on the art of understanding and improvising intuitively.
And don't mistake this approach for saying you've got to spend years on one string, on the contrary, it's just one step, a first step in understanding the guitar. It doesn't take long, but once you have that understanding, you move on and everything you do afterwards has this understanding behind it.

That's my take anyway. Mick seems to have developed a good understanding of the instrument too. I think he's respected as a teacher by some good players.

One way out of the chaos. That's all it is.
David

[srlank]

Hi unit9,

I'm in no position either to tell anyone what is best. I just think it's a great topic, and something I've been working on a bit periodically. I think it has really opened some doors into playing more expressively.

[unit9]

Hello TruthHertz, nice to meet you. Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my question . I have read many of your posts and have always found them good reading. I like what Mick says in his book that position playing is important but he also says that it is not the whole picture. I like what he says about eventually going into the realm of the ice skating ring. The study of guitar is a huge project indeed, and it has got even bigger since I began to study jazz. As I think I saw Mr Beamont once say, it is not for the faint of heart.

[fumblefingers]

i have the book but have not referenced it in a while. is this the unitar concept?


regardless, if the quote is as you say, i would say that it is a good point being over-made.


that is, since ultimately the guitar is NOT played that way, i think it would be more balanced to say something a little more practical like the following:


"to ensure that you don't get locked into mindless position playing, frequently spend a little bit of practice time playing simple patterns and melodies up and down a single string. For example:

Happy Birthday
Mary Had a Little Lamb
Ascending & descending tetrachords
Simple Arpeggios
1-3, 2-4, 3-5, etc."

[TH]

Yes unit9, the more you immerse yourself in the jazz guitar world, the more you'll see there are so many little and not so little worlds within it. I'm happy you've got such a bold curiosity about it and I hope like many of us, it is a constant companion to you from now on.
You'll find so many approaches to learning to play, and such a big topic it is! It's composition to your fullest abilities on an instrument that fits on your lap. Nothing more, nothing less. Everyone is an advocate for what they think is best, you'll learn your own filters here.
So what got you into jazz guitar? What or who was it that made it so irresistible?
Oh, welcome to the forum, and it was nice to see this thread. I was listening to Mick's music just this morning.
David

[unit9]

Hello Fumblefingers, nice to meet you. Thank you for your reply, yes it is the unitar concept. Great to hear everyones opinion on this subject. I have to say I think mick has done well to spot this about teaching methods , and I will always be grateful to him for including it in his book. I think this alone was worth me purchasing the book.

[unit9]

Well thank you TruthHertz for your interest in me. As for how I got into jazz well that's kinda funny because what happened was I used to be heavily into blues players, Peter green, BB King, Clapton, Albert King and so on, and I went to a guitar teacher about ten years ago and told him I was only interested in playing blues and just wanted to become the best blues player I could. This always seemed to get on his nerves but he said ok if that's what you want. Over the coming months he would teach me new scales that I had never bothered with before such as Mixolydian and dorian(I was a pentatonic noodler before then) he would also give me some progressions to practice them over many of them being jazz progressions. He also had a habit if playing me jazz tracks . After a while I got fed up of him trying to push me into jazz and stopped going to him. The strange thing is ever since then when I would go back to my pentatonic noodling I always felt like I was missing out on something better. It was as if a seed had been planted in my head and it slowly was growing. As time went on I started to notice jazz music on tv more and slowly but surely it seemed to creep into my life more and more. I now hardly play basic blues as I used to and am enjoying discovering all the great jazz music that is out their, I particularly love the bebop stuff such as Charley Parker , Dexter Gorden, Wes ,Emily remler, and of course Miles. So it has been a really interesting addition to my life , and I feel excited about what is down the road. I am also excited about being a member of this forum and having access to all the great and knowledgeable players on here. So that's enough about me, How did you get into jazz?

[TH]

I couldn't play as well as others...so I improvised.

David

[paulkogut]

About 25 years ago, I was just getting going in jazz, practicing hard, seeking out whatever information I could access, and striving to do things the 'correct' way. I would woodshed these complicated bebop lines, but when I got on a gig, I could never get them out the way I memorized them, and ended up scuffling around, sliding up and down the neck chasing around the notes I was hearing in my head. Sometimes I fell flat on my face, but when I got a piece of something I was going after, it felt even more satisfying than playing a memorized line correctly.

I had signed up for a weeklong seminar with Pat Martino, he pulled out at the last minute due to health issues, and Mick Goodrick was called in to sub. His up-and-down-one-string approach was a real ear opener for me, it felt really natural and I've worked a lot on it since (I've posted a video below of the standard "In Your Own Sweet Way" it's a good example as any of how I find things more 'up and down' than 'across' the neck.

On a personal level, it's hard to say exactly how to integrate this concept into your practice and playing. Should it be all of your practicing or a short time? A portion of your practicing over a long period of time? Some of each? Do you have gigs you need to get ready for this week, or a school you want to audition for next year? There's no one way or correct answer.

There's a good video from the '90's, John Abercrombie Single String Improvisation. John's backed up by another great player, John Basile, and plays some examples over vamps and changes. I have an old VHS copy, but I think Homespun put it on DVD and it probably exists in some form or another uploaded to the usual internet venues.

The Advancing Guitarist is a deceptively simple book, it's not that thick but can point you toward a ton of information. Glad you're working with it and best wishes for your music.

PK

[henryrobinett]

I have no idea. I've never done it. But I like the idea of starting basic with small sections and growing slowly from there. I tend to teach looking across the neck in smaller sections rather than up one string. Sounds cool.

[unit9]

Thank you Paul for your advice and thoughts. Also thank you for posting this wonderful video of your playing. I will be watching that a lot it is very inspiring and I enjoyed it a lot. Would it be possible for you to talk some more about your time with Mick Goodrick, I am sure other members would love to hear about it too.

[unit9]

I have no idea. I've never done it. But I like the idea of starting basic with small sections and growing slowly from there. I tend to teach looking across the neck in smaller sections rather than up one string. Sounds cool.

Thank you for your response Henry, well after all these wonderful responses to my question, it would seem that most people seem to think there is some value in this, so I am going to keep it in my practice schedule. But as has been mentioned, I don't see a problem with learning this and position playing side by side. Best of both worlds. Thank you once again for all the great responses, I am having a ball.

[bako]

One viewpoint of a guitar is as a coalition of 6 independent instruments housed on a common resonating body.
Each individual instrument (string) is very simple in design, the open string is the lowest note and it progresses one half step per fret until it reaches the end of the fretboard (notwithstanding harmonics, string bends, whammy bars and octave pedals).

Practice on one string:

1. Allows one to study in detail the tonal range that can be achieved by each string.

2. Intervals are always separated by the same distance.

3. Is a great arena to work on the combination of organized hand positions and shifting.
Pushing the threshold further would be to limit the number of a available left hand fingers.

4. Provides an often missing viewpoint on note location.

5. Builds a good foundation for navigating 2,3,4,5 and 6 strings in an up and down fashion.

6. Is a good place to practice right hand rhythmic articulations before engaging in string skipping.

7. Slows us down in the short run which can be a good thing although it doesn't seem to hold back
dedicated single string musicians like sitar players.

and I'm sure, other aspects that I am not aware of............

[TH]

and I'm sure, other aspects that I am not aware of............

Great points! Gee, you really CAN use it when you play guitar. When learning the guitar or embellishment and ornament based music like jazz, it's great to be able to have a pedal tone tonic to hammer-on against. A lot of other genres use this to great advantage (aforementioned open tunings) and to be able to SEE embellishments to notes, FEEL the locations and effects of approach notes, wide leaps much the way a vocalist needs to...
Just the act of using your whole arm to make music rather than the fingers alone turns it from an act of digital manipulation (finger memory) to an act of exertion (your whole body balance is effected by committing to a line).
And my feeling is, it's easier to acquire another person's licks by playing position, but somehow playing up and down the neck has made it clearer to me when developing my own lines. Heh heh, maybe I should spend more time transcribing and copping licks from slide players!
David

[paulkogut]

Nice to meet you on the forum, Unit9. I'm alway happy to add my perspective on Mick's teaching when questions come up.

PK

[fep]

What do you guys or girls think to Mick goodricks advice about learning to improvise on one string before moving on to two then three and so on.

I'm assuming we are talking about "The Advancing Guitarist".

I really don't think that is his specific advice.

He does start the book with one string exercises, but my take is this is a reset to move away from only position playing.

Is anyone recommending this book as a beginner guitar method? I really think the vast majority of the users of this book are already improvising using position playing. That is the audience that he is writing too.

Goodrick writes on page 9:

Any guitarist who has played at all seriously knows that position playing is very important. Also, position playing is a huge project. Lots of stuff to learn. Years of work involved. I think we can agree on this point.

The point that I'm trying to make (which may be one of the most important points in this book) is position playing is not even half of it. Equally as importatnt as position playing is playing up and down one string.

[Reg]

All roads lead to Rome... different people get hung up on different aspects of getting to the level of performance where your not held back by some technical problem.

In the end... which is the problem, most don't get to the end of anything, most don't follow through with method or approach to develop skills for playing... in this example jazz guitar. Generally most try a little of this and that... whether it's mindless position playing... crazed single string performance... I believe the point is generally there are many aspect of developing musicianship and skills for playing guitar.... there are as many organized methods and where to start, the order of how to develop these skills as there are teachers... in the end you need to be able to play anything anywhere on your fretboard.

Getting stuck in one position or on one string are examples of not getting past page 1.

[Jonzo]

Fep--Don't ruin a perfectly good discussion by introducing facts.