-
I can relate. I had a hard time learning songs off records so I started writing my own! ;o)
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
I couldn't play as well as others...so I improvised.
David
-
06-02-2014 03:04 PM
-
Well thank goodness we don't need to get to page 2 to collect all those shiny guitars and gear! Originally Posted by Reg
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-02-2014 at 03:23 PM.
-
Hi Fep, sorry if my post came across as a bit of a misquote, I was merely trying to get everyones opinion on learning on one string. To answer your question ,I have not had this book recommended as a beginners book. thanks for your thoughts . Originally Posted by fep
-
@unit9, no worries just providing my take on it.
I do think it's a good exercise and something I should do more of. I participated in a thread on this topic a while back and provided mp3 modal backing tracks for the exercises. If you want, dig through this thread and you'll find them:
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/getti...guitarist.html
-
I think the approach becomes more practical when limiting oneself on 2 strings, which enables 'guitar type phrasing' and still forces to move up and down the board. Eg one could play an improvisation on Stella, just using the D and G string, quite educational. For me there are still areas on the fretboard with which I am less familiar and exercises like this help to overcome this, as long as one is fully conscious of what the fingers are doing.
-
Another cool exercise along this vein (haven't done in awhile, so nice reminder) is to play all strings except 1 (or more). Works best with 1 or 2 broken strings.
-
Seems to me that there are two strings for which single string navigation is particularly valuable, relative to the others.
any takers?
-
Welcome to the forum! I have worked some on this technique and it's been really helpful to "open up" the fretboard to me. I practice with this by playing a standard and then soloing on the 1st & 2nd string, then the 2nd & 3rd, so on. I also try to solo on a single string. Someone above mentioned a video with John Abercrombie. This can be found on Youtube and it's worth viewing.
I love "The Advancing Guitarist". It's a book you can return to over & over again to find new material as you advance in your playing. There's a great video of Mick with Metheny on YT of "Meditation" where he incorporates some of this technique.
-
Saint-Exupery said something like this:
"To see clearly, you just need to change perspective"
Playing on one string is this change of perspective to the vertical approach most (if not all) of us have learned the instrument.
It helps a lot with getting a better overview of the fretboard and awareness of melodic contents. For example playing the pickup to "Joy Spring" (up a 4th - up a5th) can be done with little movement in one position. But playing this on one string involves jumping around quite a bit. Also you learn melodies by notes and not by the fingering.
My 2 cents to your question about how to incorporate would be:
I wouldn't overdo this thing unless you are a pretty good lick-noodler and know your position or chord-shape-playing very well and want to get more melodic. But do incorporate it for the benefits mentioned above and by others before to a small amount each day. Something like: Play the melody of the tune your working on, on each individual string. Or play a solo on one string only.
Jimmy Wyble once said: "I like to put my fingers on the guitar each day a little different"
-
Thank you once again to everyone for all your views and ideas. It would seem to me to be of value to incorporate some single string playing into my routine , alongside learning position playing.
-
Another way to change perspective is to play across all the strings, but stay within a 4 fret range. Patterns are useful, and so is breaking out of them.
-
Sorry, I think that advice to play "improvisation" melodies on a single string is at best errant. For one thing it completely ignores the harmonic possibilities to be explored at every fret position of the neck. Much better would be to sing the melodies and play them in different positions. The key to making this happen is simple - harmonize the major and minor diatonic scales in every key. Sing the melody aloud and find the notes.
Perhaps I'm wrong, but I see few bebop jazz guitarists who play on just one string. Maybe just a matter of time....The real key is to think of melodies and chordal harmonies in relation to the tonic as mathematical intervals, including extensions and understanding how they relate to the tonic.Last edited by targuit; 06-05-2014 at 05:00 PM.
-
There is always such a voice of authority in your respected views. So I'll just suggest that in the spirit in which The Advancing Guitarist was written, and I assume you find the approach of that book unorthodox?, that this is not something that the author suggests trying because so many bebop players play that way, it's merely an approach that might facilitate a different way of seeing things. Originally Posted by targuit
So what did you find problematic about a linear along the string approach when you tried it? I am curious. I know it goes against the bebop training that you've had but besides that, did you really find it so disconcerting that you dismissed it so easily?
The author doesn't say you should take all the strings off the guitar save one and make your career of it. I hope you didn't get that out of his book when you read it. He offers a perspective that provides a model for a correlation of pitch and actual spacial relationship.
There are precedents of course. Tiny Grimes, the long time guitarist who played with pianist Art Tatum, also who had a duo with Slam Stewart I believe, and alto player Charlie Parker played a tenor guitar. 4 strings. He got around on the instrument because it was a linear instrument and like the banjo he began on, he found all he needed by going up and down the strings, but also across. There is not the luxury of extended octaves in one position with 4 strings.
I've seen videos of the author Mick Goodrick play and he does use all the strings. As a matter of fact the entire subsequent chapters of The Advancing Guitarist sort of assume that you are using more than one string.
I just want to find out a little more about why you feel an awareness of an entire string's possibilities would be a bad idea when given a space to solo.
DavidLast edited by TH; 06-05-2014 at 05:48 PM.
-
I've had this book since it came out in 1987 and have found it to be very helpful on many levels at many points along the way.
The playing on a single string exercise is primarily a means to open up the student's eyes and ears to other possibilities than are portrayed in conventional guitar methods. It isn't intended to be a "method" but rather a different way of looking at the fingerboard. To quote Goodrick, from the book page 11, "Why would you play up and down one string with only one finger? Because you'd learn things that can't be learned any other way." He goes further with this idea but this is the gist of it.
He suggests that the student play each of the modes of the major scale on a single string.
He says "The simplest way to see notes is in a straight line."
"A string IS a straight line."
A piano keyboard is a straight line (my inference).
This book is not so much a method as it is a philosophical treatise on guitar playing that seeks to encourage the player to step out of the comfort zone and actually think about the possibilities of the instrument.
The "disadvantage exercises" in this book were invaluable to me when I decided to try to figure out how Django Reinhardt could play the way he did with only two fingers.
Another thing that Goodrick points out in the book is that people become the products of the method that they study. The person who was trained in the Leavitt method tends to teach the Leavitt method as the person who was trained in the Mel Bay method teaches that.
Goodrick is trying to encourage people to think and grow beyond the constraints of conventional guitar methodology.
I think that is a very good thing.
Regards,
Jerome
-
When I did the one and two string at a time exercises I noticed that it forced me out of my familiar patterns and encouraged me to rely more on my ear. There is such an easy visual to ear connection, move this way and it gets higher; like a piano.
I wonder if Metheny spent time practicing this way. He is the most vertical player I can think of.
-
Yes, my recollection was that Mick assumed most people came to the instrument, already at least reasonably familiar with playing across the strings/in position. The point seems not to be concerned with the harmonic possibilities, rather the melodic advantages /ear training, in searching out what to play instead of familiar patterns. Wasnt there a correlation with instruments of other cultures like the sitar? where players go up and down the strings. Their only concern, is melody. I think that there was also an observation by Mick that in his opinion the most melodic guitar players he had heard seemed to incorporate this feature in their playing a lot.
Cheers
-
I always thought the point of the 1 string exercise was that eventually you "just know" where all the notes are for each mode of each scale on each string. It is a desirable difficulty that forces deeper learning.
-
In my experience the most valuable thing about doing a certain amount of practicing along one string is that it improves your accuracy when shifting positions. I think it's a great exercise, gets you closer to the music and farther from the guitaristic licks.
And, speaking of bebop players, Wes' approach never seems to hold in position: rather he tends to play diagonally. In particular, you cant play in octaves in position.
-
The single string approach is meaningful and wholesome provided if you put in the effort and be organized about it. For example, take one high e string and improvise over it with one finger (index) 2-3 minutes. Then with that same finger improvise (C major) over each of the other strings until you reach the low e string. After you finish that improvise each of the six strings again with just your middle finger, repeat process with all fingering combinations (Which you can find on page 11). It should take you about 7-8 hours in total to finish improvising on just the single strings with all fingering combinations (which isn't that long of a time). By that time you would get pretty comfortable soloing on single string and you can 'graduate' to two adjacent strings. Repeat the whole process starting from the first finger to all four fingers. It should take you less time since there is only 5 adjacent string combinations (about 5-6 hours) opposed to rather 6 single strings.
Once you finish the adjacent strings you can move on to 2 non-adjacent string combinations!
Here are the Base combinations (which you take down to the lower adjacent strings after each take)
1) E,G (3-4 hours)
2) E,D (2-3 hours)
3) E,A (1-2 hours)
4) E,E (1 hour)
You see where I am going with this right? After the 2 string combinations move up the rank to all 3 adjacent - non adjacent. Then all 4 string combinations (incidentally 3 strings and 4 strings will take up most of your time since they each both have 10 base combinations resulting in 20 base combinations in total). Thankfully when you reach to 5 strings there is only 5 base combinations such as:
1)E,B,G,D,A (1-2 hours)
2)E,B,G,D,E (1 hour)
3)E,B,G,A,E (1 hour)
4)E,B,D,A,E (1 hour)
5)E,G,D,A,E (1 hour)
And finally, you reach the ultimate six string combination which will take you about an hour to solo over it with every fingering possible. By now I think it is pretty obvious you will know the C major scale on the fretboard pretty well along with the arpeggios.. but the important thing is to have a pencil and paper when it comes to these things. That way you can keep track of what you are doing and not lose where you are at. (I wouldn't do this on a seven stringer as the time it would take would increase exponentially)
This at least is what I do.. you do what you can and what you think is right for you. I think I gave way too much info but that is okay (hopefully I think). In the meantime I would try to get acquainted with the art of staccato, shifting, sliding, and legato (the most difficult). So yeah that is my take on Mr.Goodrick's advice, the neat thing about it is that this is actually an attainable goal as long as you have the time and patience for it (and its pretty fun to be honest).Last edited by jazznylon; 06-05-2014 at 11:35 PM. Reason: forgot to add in the art of shifting
-
Originally Posted by TruthHertz
David - I have a couple of early Burton albums with Goodrick and Swallow, if I recall. I respect Mick's playing, but I think that the "one string melodic" approach does not reflect the possibilities of the fret board as a polyphonic instrument. For beginners I recommend learning to play simple melodies and harmonies like Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star in positions spanning a range of five to seven frets or so. For more advanced students, study Segovia's Major and Minor Diatonic Scales in all keys and harmonize them on adjacent string sets. The point is to learn the harmonic and melodic possibilities at all fret positions over a range of four to five frets initially. My initial classical methods were Richard Pick and Carcassi. My teacher, the founder of the RI Classical Guitar Society, Hibbard Perry, never used a single string approach. I would not either. My comment about few bebop players adopting the one string thing was meant humorously.
Jay
-
You had me until you mention Segovia scales, which are the absolute worst for jazz. But you insist on them. If they work for you great. But I worked with them for some time in my earlier days and I thought they were terrible for jazz. Otherwise I agree with you about the one string approach. But it's merely an exercise meant, I assume, to shake us from our regular mundane approach. Mike Stern has mentioned playing on one string as well. To each his or her own.
-
It's funny you mention Mike Stern, Henry. I've lent him amps for clinics a few times, he definitely advocates for checking out playing up and down one string. I was thinking of a list of the folks I know that have practiced hard on the one-string concept (Mick, Jim Hall, Pat Metheney, John Abercrombie, Bill Frisell, Tim Miller) and starting to see a pattern of legato phrasing, then alternate-picking monster Mike Stern pops up and ruins that theory.
Of course, there's no one universal standard for 'good' phrasing, I know plenty of cats who can play that don't emphasize the one string thing in their teaching (Rodney Jones and Jack Wilkins come to mind)
For some people, I've seen the one-string thing be a real 'lightbulb' moment. They either immediately see the value of it, or it's something they've been doing, and liking it, but feeing bad about liking it, because it's not in the Leavitt or Segovia systems.
For some others, if you don't want to get into it and your playing is moving in the direction you'd like it to go that's one thing, but if anyone's ever felt their playing to be too 'boxy' and lacking in melodic continuity and motivic development when compared to Mick, Jim Hall, Wes*, Pat Metheney, John Abercrombie, Bill Frisell or Tim Miller, this might be an area you 'd want to consider exploring.
(*I was born too late to get to know Wes, and haven't seen this topic addressed in interviews, but I've reverse-engineered the fingerings on enough of his lines to fell comfortable including him)
PK
-
Practicing single string improvisation helped me greatly.
The guitar is pretty much a piece of shit compared to other instruments.
One of the few (maybe only) logical things about it is: higher on the neck = higher notes and lower = lower. So it's something each guitar player should take advantage of. At least it should help you play more intuitively.
For me, when improvising the music guides me in a vertical way and not horizontal. Nowadays when i'm playing I'm flying all over the fretboard.
Of course it's also a way of 'seeing the notes' on the fretboard better but I don't think that should be the main goal.
-
One of the more interesting elements beyond fingerboard mastery is tone color.
Each string is unique and pretty consistent in a certain direction.
Practicing on one string allows you to explore the full tonal range that string offers.
Classical string composer/arrangers will sometimes write Sul Re to be played only the D string for it's tonal effect.
I guess in my playing this thinking what drives my choice to limit a melody to E/A maybe D to achieve a darker color
when the ensemble texture allows for it.
An interesting exercise (in a violin technique book) I read about but have yet to practice beyond passing experiment is to play something on one string and then find a way to duplicate as close to the same tone color while playing on a different string using whatever right hand means of expression that is available.
The goal here being to expand one's tonal control.
The general idea of exercises of limitation is if you work to expand what you can do with less it will add
up to more when you return to the full resources of your instrument and techniques.
Personally, I think of melody and harmony as pretty much the same thing, a note collection presentedthe "one string melodic" approach does not reflect the possibilities of the fret board
as a polyphonic instrument.
sequentially or simultaneously. When we play one note it is often heard as a root.
If I told you I was playing Misty and held the first note, you hear it as the 5th of the key and imagine the 3rd and 7th to follow. This is perhaps the genesis behind my hallucination. Single note harmony aside.......
Harmony certainly begins with two single strings combined, three, four, etc.
Mick just presented a divergent study angle from the prevailing books of the day.
Some people like to run, some swim, some weight lift......
Single string practice is an idea that seems to have served some well with no detectable negative side effects.
It's obviously not a deal breaker, Henry among our present company is doing just fine without it.
Practice what best serves your goals and if you are unsure of what that might be then experiment.
The Advancing Guitarist is in a way a collection of experiments offered, not imposed.
-
Well, here, how about an example.
So I sat down for about a half hour and worked on playing one string melodies iver "Maiden Voyage." Then I hit record and this is what came out.
You'll notice, I'm not just playing one string...people are so literal...the one string thing is an exercise...but with that one string practice fresh in my mind, I do think it informed how I approached the tune when I recorded. This is just on lunch break, and trying the B string...I can definitely see value in spending a few hours on this and trying different "one strings" to work on. There's nothing groundbreaking going on in my playing, but I think it's oretty clear how the exercise influenced me.
Oh, and excuse the gym teacher's whistle from down the hall.
Reply With Quote
Part 2 Secrets to McCoy Tyner using 4ths,...
Today, 07:31 PM in Improvisation