Working on guitar rhythm

[jasonc]

Here's another example.....

[Reg]

Yes... there is a difference between getting there...having and understanding rhythmic feels............and how to develop those skills.
I can tell you there are lots really talented pros... that don't always have that rhythmic together. I have and still perform in many rhythm sections that have very different rhythmic feels. Some are work and some are easy.

Personally you need to develop both basic feels for swing, that 2 and 4 feel which is basically straight western time. closer to doted 8th and a 16th or dotted 1/4 and a 8th, depending on tempo.

And then the triplet feel... which is where the real feels begin to happen.

Personally there is straight mechanical time, perfect, steady, like being in the studio with a click track. And then there is music that plays with where... you create patterns on and off that straight mechanical time. Slightly ahead or behind the mechanical accent pattern. Different from the actual notated music. This feel obviously can only be developed after you develop that perfect mechanical feel. You need to have that perfect mechanical time feel to use as a reference for developing the next level of being in a pocket.

The triplet reference for swing, is much more useful for developing the majority of grooves... basic jazz blues performance.

The usual problem for most amateur... (and pro)...performers with rhythmic feel... at faster tempos, they don't have the technique for the feels to hold up , their technique breaks down which breaks down the "Feel".

Here are a few tracks of examples of different swing feels... yea, there not great recordings, they're not rehearsed etc... but they have good rhythmic feels even if the playing is loose.

Sunday In New York, Girl Talk and Cold Duck Time

[MarkRhodes]

However, once you get beyond the first stage of learning and if your interest lies in jazz/blues improv plus other forms of contemporary music, why use a metronome to improve your timing, feel and phrasing?

I have used the metronome on 2 and 4 to practice swing comping. I found that helpful and fun. I use play-along recordings and records too, but when I'm practicing, the metronome is handier than the CD player.

[djangoles]

@ 5:00 and beyond it's clear where everyone's conception of the tempo is being felt internally....no overexcited 2 and 4 tapping that I can see...

.....but then there's this clip....bass is on it.

[matt.guitarteacher]

.....but then there's this clip....bass is on it.

Great clip. It's funny after reading through this thread to watch these guys tapping their feet on opposite beats for the first :30 or so...

Much easier on the ears than my eyes. :-)

The bass player is great fun to watch and does a little of everything (except 2 & 4): 1 & 3, rocking his foot forward and back to tap all 4 beats, tapping out 1-3/2-4 with alternating feet, and completely internalizing. Of course he's subdividing and feeling the accents with his whole "self" most of the time...

Thanks for posting. Great thread.

[christianm77]

Think about it , what does having a metronome and 2 and 4 have to do with learning to swing eighths and quarters? Metronome on 2 and 4 is an attempt at simulating having a back beat accompanying you. 2 and 4 is a drummer's role. John Clayton (bass) and Jeff Hamilton (drums) told me it's a myth that metronome 2 and 4 is some special way to learn to swing, they said it's simply ridiculous in their opinions. They said they have never seen any cat swinging and tapping on the 2 and 4. They said we know we are in trouble if somebody comes on their bandstand and does it. So which masters can be seen on Youtube really tapping their foot on 2 and 4? Everybody in the Basie band and the Ellington band tapped on the down beats of 1 and 3 or 1 2 3 4... none of them tapped just 2 and 4 (except the drummers).

This is confirmed by what Barry Harris said in workshops I've been in.

Barry says (I paraphrase, probably): the 1 and 3 are about the lower body, the 2 and 4 are for the heart.'

You click your fingers or clap on 2 and 4 for this reason.

However, I have been told that Ron Carter suggest students tap on 2 and 4 - any confirmation of this out there in cyberspace?

[christianm77]

a metronome can be good for general time work, but i don't think it's necessary to stick to "2 & 4."

everyone has different advice here. Barry Harris and Hal Galper both recommend tapping your foot on "1 & 3." Barry Harris is even more specific, advising people they should tap their foot on "1 & 3" and clap on "2 & 4."

.....

i've never understood the advice to use strict alternate picking and accent the upstrokes. i have NEVER heard any jazz player -- from Louis Armstrong to Lester Young to Charlie Parker to Coltrane -- who accents the upbeats of eighth-note lines in that manner. and there are so many slurs, triplets, and playing with beat placement that it quickly becomes an exercise in futility trying to align your picking with eighth notes. if you want to use alternate picking, that's fine, but i would choose it because you like the SOUND of alternate picking, and then just work on being able to accent whatever notes you want in a given phrase or line.

Oops seem to be repeating what you said here sorry for not reading what you are saying.... Oh well added confirmation?

Last paragraph very interesting. What I've been thinking about a lot.

Accenting offbeats is a helpful corrective step for jerky immature swing feel. In this they are similar in purpose to subdividing into triplets as advised by Metheny. They are not the finished result, which is an intuitive swing. Listen to the difference of what Metheny advises his student practise and how he actually plays.

A lot of the top players ATM (esp. where I am based London) follow what I think of as the school of even-ness.

This is epitomised (I think) by the playing of Jesse Van Ruller. It sounds really impressive, and when I hear it it makes me want to play in a similar way. He uses strict rhythm alternate picking - down for down beats up for offbeats. He taught this to his students Hannes Reipler and Kristian Borring, who are active in the London jazz scene, and whose playing I also admire. Very even, very smooth, perfectly articulated, meticulously in time as anyone who has heard them will agree. In this I am reminded of Pat Martino.

However, the great horn players play in a very different way - lots of light and shade, accents, and especially ghost notes. Ghost notes are rare in the playing of most guitar players. I also hear a lot of light and shade in acoustic jazz guitar, such as Django (not so much in the modern gypsy players.) Some London guitarists play like this but it tends to be an older school perhaps - Jim Mullen etc.

I'm not sure there is a right and wrong here. I think rhythm can be expressed in the contour of a very even line - Mike Outram mentioned this regarding Pat Martino.... Mike's playing is extremely smooth at fast speeds, but he tends to avoid strings of eights in general AFAIK.

I think as long as you are thinking of a rhythm it's good?

[pierre richard]

Berklee Melodic Rhythms for The Guitar is a book I use to refer to in teaching rhythmic articulation...

An older one by Bugs Bower is also good...and older yet..Dance Band Rhythms & Interpretations by Alan Raph...

you should find something at Bob Kellers Jazz Page...to be sure...

Time on the instrument...

[rintincop]

A time "feel" and "staying in time" are two different things. Keeping in time can sometimes be improved with remedial work (metronome). A "time feel" get's into the subtle areas where a master places his notes in relation to a pulse (bass). This can only come if you already have good time keeping.
A good relaxed time "feel", like Miles Davis had on his "So What" solo, was about 100 milliseconds behind the bass player's downbeats.

Keyboard players who walk bass in there left hand sound good when the right hand is "layed back". Play on top of the beat and you sound like a classical player.