Playing in 3/4

[MattC]

I've been noticing that playing in 3/4 is one of my weaker areas, probably because I just haven't worked on it much. I've recently started to work on some tunes more. Obviously playing and listening a lot and transcribing is a good idea to get better at something. I plan to do this more with 3/4 stuff as I have been doing with 4/4 stuff.

But in addition to the obvious, anyone have any thoughts about improvising and in general playing in 3/4 or 6/8? Some of the tunes I'm planning on working on over the next few months include:

West Coast Blues
Bluesette
Someday My Prince Will Come
Alice In Wonderland

It seems the vast majority of jazz etude-type material out there is in 4/4 (which makes sense). I've not yet seen many jazz style etudes in 3/4. Perhaps I'll start creating my own etudes and/or practicing more classical-type waltz lines.

Anyway, any advice beyond the obvious I've stated above would be appreciated.

Matt

[matt.guitarteacher]

3/4 in jazz is very much about polyrhythms a lot of the time. It can feel like alternating 6/8 and 3/4 or a " who parked the car? I parked the car" polyrhythm ( take five is "who parked the car? I DID" ).. start being able to hear this sound in recordings and you can really get into a groove on 3/4 time.

[MattC]

3/4 in jazz is very much about polyrhythms a lot of the time. It can feel like alternating 6/8 and 3/4 or a " who parked the car? I parked the car" polyrhythm ( take five is "who parked the car? I did" ).. start being able to hear this sound in recordings and you can really get into a groove on 3/4 time.

Thanks. I think it's not so much feeling the time for me. I have a pretty good sense of that. I think I wasn't being clear in my OP about what I think the issue is. I'll try to be more specific.

I think it's more an issue of being able to run lines of 8th notes and resolving lines "correctly" in 3/4. I am really trying to get that together in my improvisation, the idea of resolving on strong beats, etc. It's starting to happen more in 4/4, but not so much in 3/4.

I realize that obviously great jazz solos don't mean always running 8th notes and resolving every 3rd and 7th properly, etc. (Although in some Bach pieces, that's exactly what's happening at times). However, I like to practice this sort of thing. Many jazz etudes I've seen are laid out in running eighth notes, with "correct" resolutions. Joe Pass advocates for practicing some running eighth note stuff in one of his books. I've had two teachers recommend practicing proper resolutions (one called them "resolutions that work").

In 4/4 I am developing more intuition as to hearing and spontaneously playing "correct" resolutions. Not so much in 3/4.

[pkirk]

MattC. THis may seem backwards, but one small suggestion is to practice improvising only in triplets over 4/4, and (although it is confusing at first) improvise in only "4 against 3" in 3/4. These exercises force you out of your comfort licks, and force you to address the resolutions directly.

[MattC]

MattC. THis may seem backwards, but one small suggestion is to practice improvising only in triplets over 4/4, and (although it is confusing at first) improvise in only "4 against 3" in 3/4. These exercises force you out of your comfort licks, and force you to address the resolutions directly.

Interesting. That's something that would probably also help my playing in 4.

Thanks guys. These little ideas are just what I'm looking for.

[matt.guitarteacher]

MattC. THis may seem backwards, but one small suggestion is to practice improvising only in triplets over 4/4, and (although it is confusing at first) improvise in only "4 against 3" in 3/4. These exercises force you out of your comfort licks, and force you to address the resolutions directly.

I thought this as well. Not backwards at all. this is the way I learned to hear 3.

I'm not a great improviser, but in terms of the single note stuff, it might be helpful to use the "who parked the car?" polyrhythm ( which is 4 syncopated notes over the three beats) as a jumping off point for phrasing 3/4 time. also, rather than just thinking of shortening a typical 4/4 phrase, you might think of it as lengthening a 4/4 phrase over 6 beats (two bars).

I still think starting with that triplet feel in 4 / 4 is your best inroad.

[coolvinny]

You're not alone - I'm also working on my 3/4 (and 6/4, which is how I hear West Coast Blues - I think some real books are wrong) to better feel it. Probably just a matter of putting in the time to get the feel on a subconscious level, like when first getting comfortable with 4/4 which I'm guessing did not occur overnight. Cool suggestions and I will try those.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I don't think a lot of jazz players differentiate much between 6/8 and 3/4. Almost like they're the same thing... syncopate one and you get the other...

these guys... Sheesh...

6/8 or 3/4?

Yes, it is...

[randalljazz]

sesquialtera...oh, alright...hemiola.

[coolvinny]

6/4, not 6/8...slip of the keyboard?

But yes I know some people see no difference between 3/4 and 6/4 (edit: other than having half/twice as many bars, obviously, e.g. West Coast Blues in 3/4 is a 24 bar form; in 6/4 it is 12 bar form) - including some pros I know - however there is a time sig called 6/4 and it probably exists for a reason. I know at least one excellent drummer who views them differently, at least as a starting point.

My two cents: some people treat 6/4 as 3/4 because the latter is easier to feel. That's not a slight - I sometimes do it too when soloing!

[targuit]

Jazz waltz time is great! Don't forget Bill Evans' Waltz for Debby.

[JensL]

I think it can be a good exercise to hear standards in other meters, so try to convert standards in 4 to 3. The goal being that if you know a melody in 4 you can also play it in 3. In the end it should openb up your ability to hear rhythms in 3.

I would not start with doing too much cross rhythm stuff. IMO the basics are more important, and you probably find yourself revisiting them.

Love the Keith Jarret video btw

Jens

[matt.guitarteacher]

6/4, not 6/8...slip of the keyboard?

Yeah. We always had the debates about 3/4 vs. 6/4 in school, but no, here I'm talking about a hemiola. 3/4 and 6/8.

Polyrhythm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I would not start with doing too much cross rhythm stuff. IMO the basics are more important, and you probably find yourself revisiting them.

I get what you're saying about complicating things in the beginning. (I actually thought maybe we were talking about comping in my first reply anyway). It may not be as important with the single-note side to start.

But I think this hemiola in 3/4 is pretty basic to what makes it a jazz waltz. Complex cross rhythms across measures and such are kind of a different beast and admittedly more complex.

In my mind the pair of dotted quarter notes in a jazz waltz is basically a kind of "Charleston" rhythm in 3/4 time, (think of shortening that second note). Pretty basic syncopation - jumping beat 3. If you're playing with a group usually at least one "voice" is working that. I wouldn't really think of it as being complex if you can play a Charleston in 4/4.

[MattC]

Thanks for all the replies. In my OP I was focused on improvising lines, but discussion of comping in 3 (or 6) is certainly not out of place here.

As to the 6/4 vs. 3/4 thing. I could be wrong, but a difference may be in where "strong" beats are intended? In other words, in 3/4, you have a strong beat every 3 beats vs. in one very 6 beats in 6/4.

Or perhaps more importantly, length of melodic and/or harmonic phrases? For instance Mingus's great tune "Better Git It In Your Soul" which drips with gospel music influence, is probably best felt in 6/4. It has one chord per 6 beats and several lines of running 8th notes, so notating that one in 3 would seem kinda silly.

On the other hand, "Someday My Prince Will Come" has a chord every 3 beats, and melodic phrases that often (not always) place chord tones on downbeats. So 3/4 probably makes more sense. "West Coast Blues" makes more sense to me as 6/4, since that way it's still a 12 bar blues, instead of 24 bars in 3/4. Likewise "Bluesette" which I hear as a Parker blues in 12 bars of 6/4.

Anyway, good stuff in this thread. Thanks again.

[JensL]

I get what you're saying about complicating things in the beginning. (I actually thought maybe we were talking about comping in my first reply anyway). It may not be as important with the single-note side to start.

But I think this hemiola in 3/4 is pretty basic to what makes it a jazz waltz. Complex cross rhythms across measures and such are kind of a different beast and admittedly more complex.

In my mind the pair of dotted quarter notes in a jazz waltz is basically a kind of "Charleston" rhythm in 3/4 time, (think of shortening that second note). Pretty basic syncopation - jumping beat 3. If you're playing with a group usually at least one "voice" is working that. I wouldn't really think of it as being complex if you can play a Charleston in 4/4.

It is easy to get things over complicated, and it is often much better to just work on basics when learning something like a meter. I was not really aiming at you specifically btw.

The "go park your car" rhythm that you refer to in you first post is not a cross rhythm or a poly rhythm when you sing it in swing in a medium tempo. But is a good way to learn a rhythm though.

Jens

[matt.guitarteacher]

It is easy to get things over complicated, and it is often much better to just work on basics when learning something like a meter.

Agreed.

[Gertrude Moser]

This video would suggest that ATTYA was written in the wrong meter!

[MattC]

it is often much better to just work on basics when learning something like a meter.

Bumping this thread up. So I've been working on some of the 3/4 tunes, and played Bluesette over the weekend on a gig and at a jam. Some guys I've been playing with really dig several 3/4 tunes so it's kind of a motivation to learn them.

Also, following the above advice I've been doing some very simple stuff. I've been practicing some 1 or 2 string at a time stuff in 3/4. I've been working on 1 and 2 string studies for the last few weeks anyway, so I just made an IRealB background track in 3/4 to practice on. I practice on one chord/mode vamps, playing chord tones on the 1 of each measure, running 8th note lines to enclose the chord tones. Seems to be helping.

Anyone else making any progress on 3/4 stuff?

[mr. beaumont]

I love playing in 3...

For me, it was actually learning to scat some of the drum patterns from Bill Evans' later trios...In my opinion, nobody did jazz in 3 better. So when I practice playing in 3, it's Joe LaBarbera or Marty Morell, or Elliott Zigmund playing in my head.

Nothing helped me more than that.

[MattC]

I love playing in 3...

For me, it was actually learning to scat some of the drum patterns from Bill Evans' later trios...In my opinion, nobody did jazz in 3 better. So when I practice playing in 3, it's Joe LaBarbera or Marty Morell, or Elliott Zigmund playing in my head.

Nothing helped me more than that.

I have a lot of great Evans, but none of that stuff. Any particular records? I imagine my dad has 'em since Evans is one of his main guys and he pretty much has 'em all.

[cosmic gumbo]

I find playing in 3 to be very easy to get rhythmically interesting ideas to flow, it gets addicting, it makes me sound better than I actually am. Wayne Shorter has more than his share of tunes like Footprints, Juju, Miyako, Night Dreamer, and then there's Trane's most famous 3/4 jam of all time.....

[Stanford J17]

The joe Pass Guitar Style book has some etudes on 3/4 Blues (Bluesette-Changes)

Another great tune to check out is Waltz New by Jim Hall. Basically the same changes like Someday my prince will come.

[JensL]

The joe Pass Guitar Style book has some etudes on 3/4 Blues (Bluesette-Changes)

I use the solos from that book with my students all the time, it is great material and I can recommend it to everybody! I did not check the 3/4 solos yet but now I will.

Jens

[Reg]

As mentioned above... how you label the time is cool... but it ends up being able to play or feel 3 against 2... or 2 against 3.

You can create any subdivision you want. JensL's comment about playing standards in different time sigs. is great practical example of how to develop different time feels.

[MattC]

The joe Pass Guitar Style book has some etudes on 3/4 Blues (Bluesette-Changes)

Doh! I actually own that book and forgot those studies were in there! Thanks for the reminder.