-
I have been working with basic Jazz improvisation lines taken from songs I like and books that I have. This was discussed quite a bit in the recent thread "angelPA" started on improvisation, and combined with the Greg Fishman books I purchased have served to make me even more motivated.
But there has been very precious few mention of having some sort of chord progression in the background to practice over.
A person in one thread compared playing lines without a backing track to "painting without a canvas." I don't fully agree with the analogy, but I can see some wisdom in it.
So if you want to create a nice B Dorian line for progression, surely the most effective way to practice would be to have a progression on a backing track or recorder, right? And if so, what did the Jazz Greats that were to poor to afford a recorder, or who were learning before taper recorders were widely available do? Play to vinyl records or tape reels?
-
04-06-2014 10:51 PM
-
I think their 'backing tracks' consisted of musicians getting together and making music.
Originally Posted by AlsoRan
-
Tracks are cool...I'm sure plenty of folks did what I did too, just played right on top of the record...
I like the idea of being able to keep time and hear the changes reflected in a line without any backing...but I suppose unless you record your practice or jam with others frequently enough it's tough to tell if you are...
Most of my practice is done to the rhythm section in my head, Don Thompson and Terry Clark, usually, although this week it's been Eddie gomez and Paul motian.
-
Pretty much this! Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I often think of playing with backing tracks as too easy, I'd suggest not doing that too much. A metronome does not hand you the whole song on a silver platter.
Jens
-
You can also record your own "track" with a looper.
I must confess that having rythm section in my head only is not rigorous enough !
-
My2c - do both. Obviously with a backing track you can hear things in context which is great, whereas the advantage of doing it by yourself is that you develop your inner ear, and can slow down/repeat notes as you see fit without feeling rushed. I think the two ways enhance each other.
-
I enjoy playing against my own backing tracks that I create with Sibelius. I have the flexibility to vary the tempo and orchestration of the parts. I can rehearse comping over my melody track or playing the melody track over the rhythm. A disadvantage is the requirement to track over the metronome, but I can program ritardi or accelerandi into the score, as well as set parameters regarding swing feel or rubato, for example. Although I have read music notation fluidly since I was a young teen, using notation software not only keeps your reading skills sharp, it has a synergistic effect on your "image" of the music, giving a visual form to your phrases.
And one other advantage is the computer makes things bigger, so my aging eyes can see 'em without reading glasses. That is priceless.
-
I think that's what Band In A Box was invented for. I first heard about it from a younger friend who heard about it by his teacher who recommended it for the purpose you speak of.
The same guy tells my now that iReal Pro is a much better system.
Ambersold comes to mind. His first backing tracks were released in 1967, so I'm sure a lot of good players coming up since then have played to his tracks, at least tried it, if not adopted it as a regular routine.
I don't play or practice jazz enough to be considered a good example, but when do I don't practice to a track unless it's an especially difficult piece like my 5/4 version of "Have You Met Miss Jones". For that, I just recorded a guitar track comping and running some of the bass lines.
-
Most of my playing is without a backing track. I have a few guitars sitting aroung the house and I just pick them up and play, sometimes my impromtu 'session' might only be 5 minutes long. I think there is value in that and it is just fun.
But, this has resulted in me having a harder time playing with backing tracks than without backing tracks. The freedom of not playing with backing tracks has taken away the discipline of keeping up with the number of measures and the number of beats per measure etc. Take So What, AABA, so starting from the last A and making the repeat to the top you have AAA 24 measures of one chord. A simple tune, but when soloing I'd have trouble keeping track of when those 24 measures were over and I needed to make the chord change. Working with a backing track, I learned to have 4 or 8 measure statements, I learned to hear when that change is coming up and play something that pointed to and resolved to that change, etc.
Recently, I've been playing with backing tracks of only bass and drums. This makes it a bit more difficult to keep track of the changes without any chordal playing going on. I have to listen more carefully. It also changes my playing a bit, as I feel my lines should spell out the changes more in this trio format.
If it's easier for you to play with a backing track then you probably don't need a backing track. If it's harder to play with a backing track then you probably need to practice with backing tracks.Last edited by fep; 04-07-2014 at 10:02 AM.
-
How about practicing playing with different chord qualities.
If I want to solo over F7, I would make a different choice than I would soloing over F7b9b5. I would need to be able to play these alterations in my head.
This was another dilemma that using a backing track, or a tape recorder of some type would solve, right? You could record yourself with each chord type to ensure you capture the sound you wanted.
-
Also Ran, not sure if your comment about altering chord extensions and the like was directed to me, but you can make any change you like. Or you can copy the original and just alter the copy. Of course, when I write in extensions, I write what I wish to hear, but I frequently do revise transcriptions. And while most of the time I just write out a melody and a guitar or piano staffs for my purposes, I can score for a quartet if I prefer. Nice to have a bass line holding things down sometimes.
-
Originally Posted by targuit
Targuit, it was just a general question.
I noticed early on that phrases I used over a regular Dom7 did not seem to sound as well over an altered Dom7 chord.
Thanks anyway for your reponse!Last edited by AlsoRan; 04-07-2014 at 12:43 PM.
-
But, often the lines that work of an altered Dom7 also work over a regular Dom7. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
-
There are substitutions that really does not make sense to play without the chords playing at the same time, it would be like playing another song. That unless you really have already internalized the harmony to the point of hearing in your head the right chords even when you play substitutions or anticipate or delay the lines, i.e. not when you are learning just that.
I think a basic looper pedal (ditto or jamman express xt) saves time, forces you to arrange and practice harmony and rhythm, and the chord sequence can be changed quickly. Sometimes backing tracks get boring.
-
Nope, I don't use a backing track. I usually use a metronome, but it's good to even get away from that sometimes I think. I just find that the more complicated I make things, the less likely I am to get down to to the nitty-gritty. Since I learn pretty much everything by ear anyway (and my ear is still pretty lousy, in my opinion) I don't find it difficult to practice in this stripped down manner.
I should probably incorporate a little bit of iRealB backing track practice into my routine just to balance things out.
-
On the harmonic aspect of playing without accompaniment:
Play Gb/F# on the high E string or B string.
On it's own it perhaps sounds like a root.
Is it a major 3rd of D or a minor 3rd of Ebm?
Maybe it's the 5th of B or Bm.
It could be the #11 of C9#11 or b5 of Cm7b5.
#5 of Bb7+ or the 13th of A13
b7 of Ab7 or Abm7 or ma7 of Gma7
b9 of F7b9 or 9th of Ema9 or E9 or #9 of Eb7#9
etc.
The ability to hallucinate a harmonic context (or imagine if you prefer) beyond the notes that are being explicitly stated
is a useful skill set when playing single line melodies without any live or virtual band accompaniment.
Someone familiar with One Note Samba could probably hear the descending chord changes in their head against the one note melody, someone unfamiliar with the tune might just hear a single repeating note without a harmonic reference.
Last edited by bako; 04-10-2014 at 08:11 AM.
-
I agree with bako. The skill to "hear-magine" is probably equally important. I wouldn't rule out using a backing track, though. For me, without one it's too easy to drop a beat, slow down or speed up. I practice without a backing track more than not, but it's too valuable to ignore imo.
-
To me, bt's are very useful to prepare for playing certain pieces in a band, materially reducing the risk of being caught off track. I use Band in a box, it's got lot of stuff you will never need, but is a great tool for any standard ever written and your own practice loops.
-
The iRealB app is easy and helpful for this sort of thing.
-
In the old times, young players simply played with local players their own age, and some of the older cats all the time. Depending on where they were, if it was a town with a major train or bus line, they'd get visiting bands, some of them with well known players, and these often jammed with the local upcoming guys. A lot of it was just happening to have a good time before a gig or after hours, but I am sure a fair amount of these informal sessions turned into successful, if unintentional, scouting affairs. I am also sure great musical friendships were born that way.
But it was not only live playing, whether on stage or during jams. I remember reading often about saxophonist x, or guitarist y, or other musicians who claimed they learned note by note from records that they played over and over and over again, until the groove on the record became as wide as Route 66.
Even so, many of these musicians also walked to spots where the acoustic was good (and maybe also the booze, the stuff, or the food were not too far from there), like under a bridge or between buildings, and they'd just play the heck out of the tunes they played, all by themselves.
Now, for lonely, contemporary practice sessions, we have our nice comfortable rooms, not always with the best acoutic properties, but oh well. We have tons of gadgets to make it sound great despite the room's natural (structural) acoustics. We also have softwares that slow down the music without alterning the pitch to facilitate transcribing. We do pratice by ourselves, but there are times when we need to play against a real harmonic or rhythmic structure, not just an imaginary one. What to do, just walk to the pool hall or wherever there was always a jam session in the old days, call a bunch of friends and say, "let's form a pickup band and we'll go play out tonight"? And if no one wants us to play, we'll just play in the alley or something, and things will just be happening as they often did? Nah! What happens is that we come up with GarageBand, BIAB or iRealBook or a looper pedal and we're all set for that part of our developpement where we learn by playing with music in the back, albeit not mates. Even for performing, no need to get a gig, just a webcam and you have the whole world as your potential fan base. And don't even have to get out of the house or play with anyone.
-
I dont see the need for one-dimensionality here... True, if all one does is to sit in the living room and play some learnt 'solos' over BIAB, then thats rather lonely and (as many things in the internet age) less communicative than in "the old times". One just needs to know what's good for what. To practice tunes against a backing track, so that you avoid the most obvious traps when playing with other people, is just another way of training. I heard that also in the old times people were practicing scales, comping etc. Why not use technology to support the process? Originally Posted by Eddie Lang
From my end I can say that when I get familiar with a tune, there will always be some roughness that I can smooth out when using a BT to practice. When meeting other people to play it, I can start at a level of familiarity that helps me to focus on doing creative things and to 'really' communicate with others, rather than to get lost in counting through the chords.
Just my 2c...
-
Hi Phil. I agree with you. Originally Posted by Phil in London
I can see how my reply may have seemed unidimentional, nostalgic, or even cynical, but it wasn't, I assure you. (I may be a bit cranky because my back hurts like hell, but I was not ranting.) I was simply trying to answer the OP's question "what did the Jazz Greats that were to poor to afford a recorder, or who were learning before taper recorders were widely available do? Play to vinyl records or tape reels?"
I admire the way the jazz and blues musicians learned their skills and their art, 60 to 100 years ago. The only way to learn was by playing with other upcoming or established musicians. That, and listening to radio shows or transcribing from a record.
I also see that society has changed, technology has evolved, and we may have lost a lot of things in the process, but we gained on many others.
I certainly benefit from all the material that is available today. It does not even compare to what was available when I was a teenager, some 35 years ago! I also make ample use of iRealBook, GarageBand, and sometimes my Ditto. I wouldn't be where I am musically without these, but there is nothing to replace what I learn when I play with others or in front of a public.
Cheers!
-
I never use backing tracks to practice tunes. It's easy enough for me to articulate those chord qualities in the lines I play. Being able to do this well makes playing with people easier. I can respond to the changes better if I know how to navigate without skating through by ear alone.
-
"What did jazz greats do who were too poor to afford a tape recorder?"
This question betrays the OP's lack of knowledge of both the history of tape recording as well as jazz.
While the idea of magnetic recording had been discussed among scientists and engineers circa 1880, it was not until the 1930s when German engineers at BASF invented the precursor to modern tape recording. This technology was used by the German military during World War II and was brought to the U.S at the end of the war where the combined effects of Ampex and 3M refined both the hardware and the magnetic tape.
These developments took place in the late 1940s at which point nearly a half century of jazz had already taken place. So it's obvious that a lot of jazz players managed to learn their craft without the benefit of a home tape recorder.
As others have pointed out, the most common method of practice was playing with one's friends or attending jam sessions. Charlie Parker had a guitarist friend named Efferge Ware who not only instructed Parker in harmony but also accompanied him while he was working on his lines. The most common method, by far, was to buy a record, learn to sing the solos, transfer the solos to one's instrument and then play along with the record.
The idea of the commercial backing track actually precedes the Aebersold material by over two decades. An older musician friend of mine mentioned using "play along records" in the mid 40s. In recent years I've managed to track down and acquire three of these 78 RPM records which featured George Van Eps, Stanley Wrightson, Nick Fatool and Phil Stevens as the rhythm section. The records featured one song per side in the standard key which allowed a player to solo for three minutes.
Regards,
Jerome
-
Monk, Originally Posted by monk
Sometimes I think I am losing it. You were right when you pointed out the "Jazz Greats" extends way back to the 40's and 50's (Tal Farlow, etc...) not just the late 50's and 60's.
God bless me.
But thanks for that overview.
Forgive me, but Jazz has become my passion, and I love hearing and reading stories about it and its history.
Thank you all.
Peace be with thee.
Reply With Quote
Giving the Loar some love
Today, 05:05 PM in The Builder's Bench