Best Resource to Learn Jazz Guitar Improvisation?

[angelpa]

I have the Mickey Baker book and the Herb Ellis' "All the Shapes You Are" book, both of which suggest that if after a student completes their respective book, the student can then solo.

I can read music, but only in the first position. I can hold my own in rhythm playing, but I would love to be able to take improvs to standards. Unfortunately I cannot really afford to get a teacher.

I'm 51 years old, and I am mostly comfortable playing 50's rock and roll and Chuck Berry leads, as well as rhythm behind jazz standards.

I am tempted to bite the bullet and try the second half of the Baker book since my rhythm playing is ok.

I realize that there are billions of resources and books out there, and that there are a lot of different opinions with regards to if a student of improv needs to learn scales, modes, arpeggios, or if the student should focus on memorizing the solos of others.

At the risk of sounding like I am searching for the single silver bullet, what is the one single resource (book or DVD) that has gotten you to soloing the quickest?

Thank you!

[TH]

Not a book, not a CD or website, but a suggestion. Are you anywhere that you can go out and see some live music? Even more than watching a youtube video or even asking advice here, I believe there's something about seeing improvised music being made in front of you. I drives home the point that there are many elements at play but most importantly that it's a process that makes improvisation, and I think it gives some perspective of what you yourself may be needing to master.
There are so many opinions on how do go about learning. A teacher, a GOOD teacher I'd put way above any other method because they can guide you, keep you from obsessing on things out of order, praise your progress and suggest things to explore and listen to. A teacher and some live music.

There is an awful lot of video on YouTube, and it can be overwhelming. You might begin by deciding who you want to hold as your personal inspirations, who you want to take as a role model. Then listen a lot.
Your familiarity with lower frets maybe suggests that there is a very real disparity between the guitar that you know and the guitar that an improvisor takes for granted. To guide you to making that transition, and to keep your progress in perspective, you should have the company of others. I know you said you can't afford to hire a teacher. Can you find others who might be wanting to learn as you do? That'd also help.

"Improvisation" is a huge subject and you're not even going to find a consensus of what that means on this forum. Your turning to Herb Ellis does help. Can you first devote some time to learning the locations of all the notes across the fingerboard for starters? Then can you see yourself clear to learning where the notes of a major and minor scale would relate to those notes? If you had that under your belt, that would help immensely. And you can do that on your own. You will learn it on your own eventually anyway, but I see that as a solid starting point.

That's just the opinion of one who has been there. I hope you find the ways to enjoy your progress every step of the way.
David

[angelpa]

Thank you, David. Currently I play with some people every once in awhile who know what they are doing. I can name the notes on the fingerboard, but not in a millisecond! The ability to take a melodic solo during the chords of a standard remains a goal. Thanks for your input.

[TH]

Hey I think you're on the way then. How's your theory? Can you say you're comfortably familiar with the 7 chords of diatonic harmony? The idea of secondary dominants? (that those diatonic chords can have dominant chords that support them?) Internalized, this is powerful knowledge and once in your ear, you can put it in your fingers to create melody. That process is a lot to put into a post but as a concept, it's the basis for improvising by ear, always a great place to take off from.
In other words, know where your are by ear throughout any given piece, know where that tonality is on the fingerboard. Create your own path through that sound. That's the idea. All the other methods will help you get around the trees, I'm just suggesting a way to see the forest.
One word of advice: Work slowly, use good time and rhythm at ALL times, and listen so your ear gets the message. If you use a method book or DVD as the means to learn to outpace your ear with your hands, it will make using your imagination much more challenging.
Take this as one person's take on the big picture.
David

[marcwhy]

I'd agree with David that a good teacher, especially if you're a beginning musician/improviser, is critical. You said you can't afford a teacher, but look around -- some of the online teachers (Jimmy Bruno, et al.) are maybe $30/month for almost endless info (and feedback when you submit examples). Check your finances and priorities, and see what you can do.

That being said, I don't think there's "one best way" to learn; a thorough book that I always recommend, though, is Hal Crook's "Ready, Aim, Improvise!"

Enjoy the journey!

[angelpa]

Ok I checked the Jimmy Bruno site and it's $20 per month. I do think that might be doable. I might have to do it. I realize there's another thread about his method, but I'm wondering if anyone else might want to comment here about the quality of his "canned lessons" as well as the option between using his site or the Herb Ellis or Mickey Baker book. Thanks to all

[AlainJazz]

Angelpa, I can highly recommend Jimmy's site. He is a great teacher and the canned videos offer a wealth of useful information and tips.

[matt.guitarteacher]

1 on 1 Skype lessons can be had at whatever intervals you desire with some fantastic teachers relatively inexpensively as well.

[angelpa]

Nice. Thank you all again.

[targuit]

Angelpa, if I understood, one of your goals is to learn to play standards. Have you worked with a Real Jazz Book type of compendium of jazz standards? You can get quite far with learning chords and melodies of songs. Theory is helpful surely, but so is a good ear. A good teacher is a plus. The most important key to improvisation is rhythm and time.

I find the best approach for me is to use my $69 legacy Sibelius G7 notation software to create my own transcriptions of standards which are in effect backing tracks for practice. Ultimately lots of fun, once you hike the learning curve.

[cosmic gumbo]

the student should focus on memorizing the solos of others

If you could have only one solitary source, I believe it should be the music. Memorization. Just the music, your instrument, and your ears.

[fumblefingers]

who are 2-3 players that you would most like to sound like?

[angelpa]

Fumblefingers: that would be Charlie Christian, Charlie Christian , and probably Joe Pass

[voxss]

fastest route for me was getting band in a box and using the Jazz solos..a year later i can solo over a multitude of songs...then grabbing all the transcriptions of the Greats...Mobley,Gordon, Adderley,Moody,Land etc..which is here...just transpose if you need to WITH BIAB..also get the Wes Montgomery transcriptions , you have enough material to pass you off as a competent guitarist..Alebit fast track one...Home Page ..........heres list the songs in BIAB.......BIAB File Name Based on Changes to BIAB Graded LevelGS001 Manha De Carnaval/Day In The Life Of A Fool Easier
GS002 East Of The Sun Easier
GS003 I Didn't Know What Time It Was Easier
GS004 Rosetta Easier
GS005 Pennies From Heaven Easier
GS006 Sunny Side Of The Street Easier
GS007 Nice Work If You Can Get It Easier
GS008 In A Mellow Tone Easier
GS009 Man I Love Easier
GS010 A Foggy Day variation w/bridge ??? Easier
GS011 Lady Be Good Easier
GS012 Girl From Ipanema Easier
GS013 It Could Happen To You Easier
GS014 How High The Moon Easier
GS015 You'd Be So Nice Easier
GS016 I Love You Easier
GS017 Ain't Misbehavin' Easier
GS018 Alone Together Easier
GS019 Wave Easier
GS020 Someday My Prince Will Come Easier
GS021 Satin Doll Easier
GS022 Sweet Georgia Brown Easier
GS023 Bb Blues w/variation Easier
GS024 Corcovado Easier
GS025 Autumn Leaves Easier
GS026 Stella By Starlight Easier
GS027 Honeysuckle Rose/Scrapple Easier
GS028 Rhythm Changes Easier
GS029 Green Dolphin Street Easier
GS030 "Take The ""A"" Train" Easier
GS031 My Funny Valentine Intermediate
GS032 When Your Lover Has Gone Intermediate
GS033 It's Only A Paper Moon Intermediate
GS034 Our Love Is Here To Stay Intermediate
GS035 A Foggy Day Intermediate
GS036 This Will Be My Shining Hour
GS037 My Romance Intermediate
GS038 Have You Met Miss Jones Intermediate
GS039 Advanced
GS040 Like Someone In Love Advanced
GS041 Just Friends Intermediate
GS042 Shadow Of Your Smile Advanced
GS043 It's You Or No One Advanced
GS044 Blue Skies Advanced
GS045 I Concentrate On You Advanced
GS046 All The Things You Are Advanced
GS047 Rhythm Changes Advanced
GS048 I Remember You Intermediate
GS049 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
GS050 How About You Intermediate
GS051 My Funny Valentine Easy
GS052 When Your Lover Has Gone Easy
GS053 Confirmation Easy
GS054 Once I Loved Easy
GS055 I'm In The Mood For Love Easy
GS056 Old Devil Moon Easy
GS057 Lazy Bird Easy
GS058 Georgia Easy
GS059 KTOBCTOI also 119 Easy
GS060 I Thought About You Easy
GS061 Where Or When Easy
GS062 It Don't Mean A Thing… Easy
GS063 Moonglow Easy
GS064 Fly Me To The Moon Easy
GS065 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Easy
GS066 All Blues Easy
GS067 Hello Dolly Easy
GS068 Blue Skies Easy
GS069 Bluesette Easy
GS070 A Night In Tunisia Easy
GS071 Darn That Dream Easy
GS072 Deed I do???? Easy
GS073 All The Things You Are Easy
GS074 Perdido Easy
GS075 On A Clear Day Easy
GS076 Triste Easy Bossa
GS077 Love Walked In Easy Swing
GS078 Yesterdays Easy
GS079 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Easy
GS080 Just In Time Easy
GS081 That's All Intermediate
GS082 Airegin Intermediate
GS083 All Of You Intermediate
GS084 Am I Blue Intermediate
GS085 Blue Moon Intermediate
GS086 There Will Never Be Another You Intermediate
GS087 There Is No Greater Love Intermediate
GS088 Jeannine Intermediate
GS089 Jordu Intermediate
GS090 Intermediate
GS091 If I Should Lose You Intermediate
GS092 Speak Low Intermediate
GS093 Algo Bueno Intermediate
GS094 Blue Bossa Intermediate
GS095 Easy Living Intermediate
GS096 Bye Bye Blackbird Intermediate
GS097 Four Intermediate
GS098 Joy Spring Intermediate
GS099 Laura Intermediate
GS100 Colors of Chloe???? Intermediate
GS101 Falling In Love With Love Intermediate
GS102 I Should Care Intermediate
GS103 In Your Own Sweet Way Intermediate
GS104 Alice In Wonderland Intermediate
GS105 Just Friends Intermediate
GS106 Up A Lazy River Intermediate
GS107 Cherokee Intermediate
GS108 Dolphin Dance Intermediate
GS109 Doxy Intermediate
GS110 Do Nothing 'Til You Hear From Me Intermediate
GS111 My Funny Valentine Chord Solo
GS112 When Your Lover Has Gone Chord Solo
GS113 Confirmation Chord Solo
GS114 Once I Loved Chord Solo
GS115 I'm In The Mood For Love Chord Solo
GS116 Old Devil Moon Chord Solo
GS117 Lazy Bird Chord Solo
GS118 Georgia Chord Solo
GS119 Same as 59 Chord Solo
GS120 I Thought About You Chord Solo
GS121 Where Or When Chord Solo
GS122 It Don't Mean A Thing… Chord Solo
GS123 Moonglow Chord Solo
GS124 Fly Me To The Moon Chord Solo
GS125 Don't Get Around Much Anymore Chord Solo
GS126 All Blues Chord Solo
GS127 Hello Dolly Chord Solo
GS128 Blue Skies Chord Solo
GS129 Bluesette Chord Solo
GS130 A Night In Tunisia Chord Solo
GS131 Darn That Dream Chord Solo
GS132 Deed I do Chord Solo
GS133 All The Things You Are Chord Solo
GS134 Perdido Chord Solo
GS135 On A Clear Day Chord Solo
GS136 Triste Chord Solo
GS137 Love Walked In Chord Solo
GS138 Yesterdays Chord Solo
GS139 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Chord Solo
GS140 Just In Time Chord Solo
GS141 Satin Doll Advanced
GS142 Night And Day Advanced
GS143 Lullaby Of Birdland Advanced
GS144 Girl From Ipanema Advanced
GS145 Advanced
GS146 I Hear A Rhapsody Advanced
GS147 How Long Has This Been Going On Advanced
GS148 Wave Advanced
GS149 It Had To Be You Advanced
GS150 On The Street Where You Live Advanced
GS151 Falling In Love With Love ????? Advanced
GS152 Easy To Love Advanced
GS153 Deed I Do Advanced
GS154 Days Of Wine And Roses Advanced
GS155 Come Rain Or Shine Advanced
GS156 Bb Blues Advanced
GS157 Am I Blue Advanced
GS158 I'll Remember April Advanced
GS159 All Of Me Advanced
GS160 After You're Gone Advanced
GS161 Yesterdays Advanced
GS162 Autumn Leaves Advanced
GS163 Back Home In Indiana/Donna Lee Advanced
GS164 Tenderly Advanced
GS165 Tangerine Advanced
GS166 Summertime Advanced
GS167 Stella By Starlight Advanced
GS168 The Song Is You Advanced
GS169 Just In Time Advanced
GS170 On A Clear Day Advanced
GS171 I'm In The Mood For Love Comping
GS172 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS173 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
GS174 Once I Loved Comping
GS175 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS176 When Your Lover Has Gone Comping
GS177 My Funny Valentine Comping
GS178 My Funny Valentine Comping

[wizard3739]

Congratulations! You are on a fast for learning jazz, similar to my approach. I do recommend playing with other musicians as much as possible as your next step.(you may already doing this). Good work!

best wishes, wiz

[voxss]

thanks WIZ..id be interested to hear what your approach is..

[angelpa]

Thanks again to all. And like voxss, I'd also be interested in hearing wizard3739's approach.

[ChrisDowning]

I have recently retired from full time teaching and playing, but having taught mainly rock and acoustic players, there is definately a set of basics that build towards improvising.

Improvistion is built around chords and scales. Rock players typically learn the minor pentatonic scale (usually just one version - the E minor one in the 1st position) and find they can riff away on that around the E7, A7 and B7 chord of a 12 bar in E. This sounds like your average pub band solos. It usually comes as a bit of a revellation to students that this scale seems to fit the chords whatever notes in the scale they play. This is almost sub-101 of improvisation.

As a teacher it is them my job to show them that wahtbthey are acually playing doesn't really fit the chords very well because they are hitting notes that don't appear in the chords - for example the D note in their E minir pentatonic scale doesn't appear in the A7 chord so hitting the D whilst soloing over the A7 chord sounds bad. The scale actually fits Em7, Am7, Bm7 not the majors. So at this stage I can introduce the idea of the relationship of scales to chords and chords to scales.

From this point on we are more in a jazz players approach to soloing - a chord based, chord tone approach. The notes from the scale that most accurately echo the harmony chords are the chord tones - the chord arpeggio notes. So we are at a point where the student realises the need to know scales AND chord arpeggios.

Now their is some graft at this point based on understanding one scale and the chords that fall natuarlly into that scale. If we tale the work up the neck a bit to separate us from earlier soloing around the Em pentatonic and let say we go to the G scale starting with your second finger on the 6 th string I would develop the idea that this scale naturally contains the chords G C D and Em Am Bm - we can introduce the jazzier Major7ths later. So setting up a chord sequence backing track using 4,5 or 6 of those chords we now need to be able to do arpeggios around the chords as they appear in the music. Obviously that sounds pretty stilted - but we then have the foundation, the framework to talk about and apply approach notes and passing tone to connect the chord tones - think of the chord tones as safe ground that naturally are parts of the chords - green, safe stepping stones - and the other notes as red, hot stepping stones that only go to a green. Not wholly true but I found that metaphor helped.

The books that will help you go down the path I describe above are Chord Tone Soloing by Barratt Tagliarino and after a getting startedwith that you can try Joe Elliot's book Jazz Guitar Soloing. Also the DanielGilbert/ Beth Marlis books - Guitar Soloing and Advanced Guitar Soloing support the same approach but have a lot of lengthy backing tracks you can use for practice.

Its very easy to read stuff here and begin to take on board the idea you'll need to know all six major scales, their cousins the minor, dorian, mixolydian, and bebob scales! (whatever) AND your chord constructions across all the keys and all the jazz chords - you don't want to read that list here! Start simply, one scale and six major chords and move it one from there.

Improvistion isn't easy. It's, in many ways, the pinnicle of playing - composing on the fly in front of a live audience. Most pro orchestral musicians just cannot do, they are familiar with their professional life of reading music from the page. Don't beat yourself up - its challenging. You are stepping into the unfamiliar - it is not impossible - just unfamiliar to you.

[voxss]

the pub bands...lol i remember listening to Dave Cliff,Terry Smith,,Louis Stewart..Magic... just played LAURA from the BIAB Solos...wow..love the way it touches on that melody...

[fumblefingers]

Fumblefingers: that would be Charlie Christian, Charlie Christian , and probably Joe Pass

Well then I would combine the following (as there is no "single" approach to learning improv):


1. learn Christian's solos and licks like many others have done - but don't stop there. (transcriptions are available).

2. get every book by Joe Pass that shows how he builds lines (there may be a Joe Pass complete book).

3. get Essential Jazz Lines in the Style of Joe Pass and Wes Montgomery, by Corey Christiansen. Use these as Jazz patterns books. And learn some of Joe's solos and licks too.

4. apply what you learn to lots of tunes and use play-alongs to practice your own improv.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss...20pass%20books

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Pass/e/B00...048&sr=1-2-ent

Mel Bay's Complete Joe Pass (Guitar Masters): Joe Pass: 9780786667475: Amazon.com: Books

The Best of Charlie Christian: A Step-by-Step Breakdown of the Styles and Techniques of the Father of Modern Jazz Guitar (Guitar Signature Licks): Wolf Marshall: 9780634021824: Amazon.com: Books

Amazon.com: Hal Leonard Charlie Christian - The Definitive Collection (TAB): Musical Instruments

[jzucker]

the best way to learn improvisation is by copying and analyzing solos of the established greats. Teacher is helpful for understanding what you are unable to figure out, assuming you have a good teacher.

[ChrisDowning]

Copying a solo doesn't really teach you what is going on and in the long run makes improvisation a much longer journey. Any itermediate player could learn a solo and/or a jazz tune end to end, but by doing that exercise still will nit understand what the player was actually doing or how they constructed that solo. And learning from transcriptions is also just another version of earning by rote - except this time its on the page whereas before we were learning by ear. John Williams has always said he can play jazz off the page but cannot improvise - so I don't think reading will help that much.

Learning a players solos and jazz tunes doesn't teach you how to improvise, it teaches you how to copy. If you learn some of the interrnal structure to improvising, then studying great players solos then advances us because we understand what they are doing. Improvising is essentially composing in the moment. Playing in an Abba tribute band and playing their tunes note for note won't turn you into the composers who wrote the originals. Studying harmony and composition will enable you to understand what the Abba guys were doing and ultimately you will be able to churn out some stuff that is similar. (God help us all when you do!) Hope the analogy helps

[targuit]

I am not a music teacher, but my background was classical initially, so I have direct experience as a student. In my opinion, a good grounding in music theory including reading notation and a good technical foundation is fundamental. As one progresses, developing the ear is primary. The best way is to learn songs (imitation) and melodic solos, and the musical vocabulary (assimilation) which will over time allow you to find your own voice (creation).

I believe that a good teacher can focus the student who has aptitude and chops on the shortest route to their goal. There are some fundamental principles of voice leading essentially on the guitar that can be taught today by example both visually and via the audio of video clips. Along with the revolution of digital recording and transcription aids like Transpose (don't own it yet), learning to play today is more transparent and available to the student than ever before.

Nonetheless, nothing replaces the time spent playing the instrument and ideally time playing with others. Ideally, because while that interaction is invaluable, unfortunately in the real world it is not easy to find the nexus of talented musicians relatively free from time constraints of job and family. Good thing we have digital recording and notation programs.

But, aside from learning from the masters (transcription and imitation) and the valuable guidance of a virtual or real teacher, there is that 10,000 hours to mastery hypothesis. But, to coin a phrase, 'what are you doing for the rest of your life?"

Jay

[GuyBoden]

Studying harmony and composition will enable you to understand what the Abba guys were doing and ultimately you will be able to churn out some stuff that is similar.

"Abba", are you sure you want to play like Abba?

[targuit]

Chris - our posts crossed in cyberspace. I agree that slavishly copying solos or having to sight read off the sheet music in order to "improvise" is not the objective. For me it is to develop the technical vocabulary including understanding the music theory and its concrete application in playing the song. The ear rules for me, because if you can play what you hear, you are free to create within your limits.

I am so strongly grounded in playing by ear that even when I'm playing a melody or improvising I tend to focus only on certain notes and rhythmic sub-pulses in the music rather than actually read the chart anymore. Basically, I focus on where I want to go and where I want to accent the rhythm to set up desired tensions and resolutions.

The thing that strikes me lately is this. That the ear processes musical language of notes and rhythms so quickly that it exceeds the ability to sight read or to analyze theoretically what is going on. Which is good for me for a couple of reasons. One is that if I hear a musical phrase or improvise off a melody, I prefer to improvise because it is far easier than sight reading. The other reasons include the difficulty I have reading off charts due to presbyopia and the fact that I am endearingly lazy.