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agreed patrick. Not saying that other methods are invalid but copying solos is the tried and true and proven methodology
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04-01-2014 01:38 PM
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Matt, I think we may be talking past each other. I am making a comparison between a structured class v. picking up a language informally, as in your work environment example. A good class will have elements similar to the work environment, but you won't often find someone at work to give you a structured grammar lesson.
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Originally Posted by jzucker
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I never said a good teacher's input wasn't important. I think I said the opposite. And my point wasn't that an immersion class was inferior to a workplace environment where one is scrambling to learn a language.
It's the idea that repeating and imitating isn't very valuable in learning almost anything . I think imitation and repetition are fundamental to the way that we learn just about anything in life. You won't find an immersion class or a collegiate jazz program that doesn't include those 2 elements.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 04-01-2014 at 02:52 PM.
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You know for me, it was stuff I learned ten years before I got into jazz that became really useful...I was sure glad that I had a teacher at age 12 who demanded I learn the note names on the fretboard, that I learn to spell my major scales...that stuff became invaluable when I actually sat down to try and figure out what was going on in jazz...by that time I had no teacher, I was on my own...
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I have posted the link to this article before about learning a foreign language, and I think it is really good.
What?s the secret to learning a second language? - Salon.com
The basic idea is:
- Use your intellect to understand what you are learning, rather than only memorizing. Learn the rules.
- Use spaced repetition to efficiently memorize vocabulary and grammar.
- Use the language for a purpose.
- Interact with native speakers.
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When I first began to learn things from recordings, I learned them note for note.
When I jammed with friends, I played them note for note.
As my collection of learned/memorized solos grew, I began to see, or actually hear, places in other tunes where I could insert this phrase or that phrase. At that point I began a phase of "cutting and pasting". I would disassemble solos and reassemble the phrases over other tunes. I would hear that Phrase 1 would sort of work but wouldn't flow into Phrase 2 gracefully. So I began to "tweak" phrases so that they would connect in a musical, at least to my ear, manner.
At some point along the way I began to notice that sometimes when trying to learn a new solo I could get no farther than the first measure before I started to hear other possibilities. That one phrase might give birth to two, three or five other phrases. When that happens I pause to write them down for later study.
When I was a student at GIT in the early 1980s, there was one common thread among all the jazz guys at the school. Howard Roberts, Joe Pass, Ron Eschete, Les Wise, Joe Diorio, ALL OF THEM said that quickest way from the practice room to the bandstand was to copy solos off records.
To wind back around to the OP, for someone who is making the transition to jazz from another style of music I would recommend Robert Conti's Ticket to Improv DVDs wherein he teaches simple solos to standard tunes which the student can augment by listening to and learning the heads either by ear from recordings or using sheet music.
Regards,
Jerome
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
Charlie Christian
Tal Farlow
Jimmy Raney
Johnny Smith
Wes Montgomery
George Benson
Lenny Breau
Chet Atkins
Jerry Reed
B.B. King
Larry Coryell
Steve Khan
Howard Roberts
Joe Pass
Joe Diorio
Ron Eschete
Oscar Moore
Mary Osborne
Les Paul
Jimmy Wyble
Diz Disley
Bireli Lagrene
Jack Wilkins
Chuck Wayne
Bucky Pizzarelli
Russell Malone
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Mmmnnn. Do actors become more aticulate and ultimately playwrites because they act out others writers words in plays?
I agree withyou Monk. Fastest way to play in public is to cop stuff off others. The progression you talk about is one we can all recognise. But in the environment you describe, you are also interacting with other players and learning all sorts of other stuff at the same time.
Learning jazz, if we areto take this thread as an example, is absolutely full of learning variety. This is what leads some to say it can't be taught, you just pick it up by playing out a lot.Last edited by ChrisDowning; 04-01-2014 at 02:39 PM.
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Monk - did any of those guys actually study at GIT, or a music college?
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Originally Posted by monk
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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Silver bullet is probably too strong though... there are a lot of roads that lead to Rome. And certainly one size doesn't fit all. Regardless, if someone is struggling, I think this is a good approach.
For instance, this discussion of transcribing. Examples of some of the best players are used as examples of the benefits of transcribing. Transcribing may have worked wonderfully for these extremely talented, young and dedicated students. Perhaps this kind of model won't work as well for someone who is a beginner in their fifties.
I'm that person in my fifties who has done transcribing, ear training, and various books. The 'Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing, by Joe Elliott is what has been the most beneficial to me.
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Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
In the list of players I posted, most were autodidacts and all of them learned to solo from listening to records.
Reinhardt was mentored in the gypsy tradition but learned jazz from Louis Armstrong's recordings.
Pass had a guitar teacher as a child but learned to play jazz from listening to Christian and Charlie Parker records.
Eschete had a college degree in classic guitar but learned to play blues and jazz as a teenager listening to records.
Several of the people on the list like Howard Roberts and Chet Atkins took some lessons after they were already established musicians.
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
I know/knew some of the people on that list and I know what they told me about how they learned.
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Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
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Originally Posted by monk
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
If all of these players say that it was crucial for them, why argue with them? Do your own thing, but it's silly to dismiss what other people say has really work for them and claim what? they just didn't know better back then?
And, Chris, if we're going to bring music schools into the argument that Joe and Wes were clueless about what was really happening in their "education", then we have to also acknowledge the fact that those same schools not only analyze their playing, but advocate their *methods* as well.
Transcription is a basic part of study at Jazz schools. So, no. They didn't go to one of those schools. The schools just base their curriculum and instruction practices on what they did.
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
You don't have to agree that jazz is a language to recognize the similarities between them. I listed several of them. If there are also similarities between jazz and making a cup of coffee, then apply what is relevant about coffee making to learning jazz too.
I don't think that anyone is arguing that playing jazz is not a skill. Are you suggesting that speaking a language is not a skill?
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
When my father was in high school, he would eat a rare steak right before every football game, because that is what the great athletes of his day did.Last edited by Jonzo; 04-02-2014 at 12:51 AM.
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Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
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Originally Posted by Jonzo
Chief Xian aTunde Adjuah (Christian Scott)
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