The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by targuit
    The thing that strikes me lately is this. That the ear processes musical language of notes and rhythms so quickly that it exceeds the ability to sight read or to analyze theoretically what is going on.

    Yes, I totally agree, the ear can process sound much quicker than the eye.

    Take the opposite scenario, you wouldn't use your ears to try to hear objects, using ultrasonics, like bats do.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #27

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    I highly recommend both Jimmy Bruno and Robert Conti. But otherwise, learn the melodies of the tunes in the position that you already know. Try to play only the 3rd's and 7's in for each of the chords, those are good target notes. Try to improvise on only one string. Those of us with a rock background use our eyes and patterns that we learned more than our ears. Using one string takes away our patterns and makes us use our ears, heck, you can even shut your eyes. Get a good backing track in any key, pick a single string and see what you can do. You'll know what notes work when you hit the ones that don't. When you hit a bad note, hit it again. Try it on the string next to the one you started with, then when you have two strings, combine the two together and see what happens. Play the arpeggios of the chords but try not to start on the 1. Once you can do that, try enclosing those arpeggio notes by playing the scale tone above the note, the target note, the chromatic note below the target, and the target note again. Go through the arpeggios with those enclosures or ones that you make up yourself. Learn every good line that you can and figure out how to apply it over other chords, try it over chords that you would never expect, and see what happens. All good frustrating fun. You'll spend lots of time, money, and you'll possibly alienate your friends and family. What more could you ask for?

  4. #28

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    Sorry but I'm going to call BS on that. Every great jazz musician learned to play jazz by copying solos. Of course you have to do more than just ape what's on the page. You have to take the time to analyze what's going on but that should be pretty obvious.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
    Copying a solo doesn't really teach you what is going on and in the long run makes improvisation a much longer journey. Any itermediate player could learn a solo and/or a jazz tune end to end, but by doing that exercise still will nit understand what the player was actually doing or how they constructed that solo. And learning from transcriptions is also just another version of earning by rote - except this time its on the page whereas before we were learning by ear. John Williams has always said he can play jazz off the page but cannot improvise - so I don't think reading will help that much.

    Learning a players solos and jazz tunes doesn't teach you how to improvise, it teaches you how to copy. If you learn some of the interrnal structure to improvising, then studying great players solos then advances us because we understand what they are doing. Improvising is essentially composing in the moment. Playing in an Abba tribute band and playing their tunes note for note won't turn you into the composers who wrote the originals. Studying harmony and composition will enable you to understand what the Abba guys were doing and ultimately you will be able to churn out some stuff that is similar. (God help us all when you do!) Hope the analogy helps

  5. #29

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    Great, actually I think we are in violent agreement. If we were down the pub we would by now be promising each other that, "We are the bestestest friends anyone could eeever wishshsh for," shortly followed with stumbling home along the pavement, arms around each others' shoulders for support. Nothing quite like it - drinking, conversation, and a technical subject. A Toast to all the 9th chords - hic!

    Oops - just saw JZuckers post. Sorry mate. You make a good point - but what is obvious to you and me now, certainly wasn't obvious to me when I was 17 years old. What real beginners need is a clear roadmap, starting with small steps, not huge repetoire challenges like 'work your way through the xxx back catalogue and somehow by osmosis you'll get it'.
    Last edited by ChrisDowning; 03-31-2014 at 11:31 AM.

  6. #30

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    Guy..... behave! You know what I meant. Don't be so literal, or you will have to go outside.

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
    Oops - just saw JZuckers post. Sorry mate. You make a good point - but what is obvious to you and me now, certainly wasn't obvious to me when I was 17 years old. What real beginners need is a clear roadmap, starting with small steps, not huge repetoire challenges like 'work your way through the xxx back catalogue and somehow by osmosis you'll get it'.
    It doesn't matter what's obvious to us now. Every great player copied solos when they were 17 and it's still the best way to learn to play jazz. Jazz is a folk music. You learn by copying and emulating, whether it's a clip on youtube or copying solos of "official" recordings. You don't learn to play jazz from a book or from a teacher. I'm sorry but despite all the jazz lessons, books, dvds, etc., learning by doing/copying is still the best way, and this from an author of a set of jazz technique studies books!
    Last edited by jzucker; 03-31-2014 at 01:50 PM.

  8. #32

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    Agree w JZ. If one does not have the analysis skills that is another challenge to overcome.

  9. #33
    Sorry for the naive question; how does one go about analyzing a solo?

  10. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by jzucker
    the best way to learn improvisation is by copying and analyzing solos of the established greats. Teacher is helpful for understanding what you are unable to figure out, assuming you have a good teacher.
    ..and analyzing...

    Yes. This.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChrisDowning
    Copying a solo doesn't really teach you what is going on and in the long run makes improvisation a much longer journey. Any itermediate player could learn a solo and/or a jazz tune end to end, but by doing that exercise still will nit understand what the player was actually doing or how they constructed that solo. And learning from transcriptions is also just another version of earning by rote - except this time its on the page whereas before we were learning by ear. John Williams has always said he can play jazz off the page but cannot improvise - so I don't think reading will help that much.

    Learning a players solos and jazz tunes doesn't teach you how to improvise, it teaches you how to copy. If you learn some of the interrnal structure to improvising, then studying great players solos then advances us because we understand what they are doing. Improvising is essentially composing in the moment. Playing in an Abba tribute band and playing their tunes note for note won't turn you into the composers who wrote the originals. Studying harmony and composition will enable you to understand what the Abba guys were doing and ultimately you will be able to churn out some stuff that is similar. (God help us all when you do!) Hope the analogy helps
    I'm improvising this post using words I learned by rote. The compositional style is based on the reading I did when I was younger more so than any actual composition classes or "practice" in writing. I'm typing on this keyboard, which I learned entirely (100%) by rote: mindless, repetitive pounding on keys (and very effective). Almost everything we learn to do in this life from speech to tying shoes is done by imitation and rote learning. Rote learning is way underated and unfairly bashed by modern education experts. As a school teacher myself, I find this very irritating.

    Some things are best "explained" by just doing or observing first hand. I think I've learned more about comping from a 5 minute youtube video of Reg's than from a whole stack of books on comping. We don't only learn by thinking about things abstractly, and we don't only learn by rote either. It's a balance.

    Fortunately, we don't live in a universe where you have to pick one or the other, but if we did, I think I'd take rote learning. All of the jazz greats learned this way, and you can't learn anything by pure 100% conceptual analysis. I also think the jazz guitar world has way more people who've overdone theory and underdone playing/transcribing than the other way around. Concepts and theory reinforce what you've experienced, even if it's been failure, frustration or running into walls with your progress. The failures give you context to understand the theory and concepts.

    Memorizing poetry or solos is not wasted time and isn't taking up brain real estate that you could be using on something else. It informs all kinds of other learning. Things that are memorized by rote go into long-term memory and "simmer" in the brain on a whole other level of understanding.

    When you memorize an entire solo (or long poem for that matter), you see smaller details that you didn't notice at first. Amazingly, at the same time, you see things on a more macro level as well: broader structures and themes that you can't see (or hear) until you know the whole thing.

    There's also an assumption in your statement that the pitch elements are the only thing to be considered. I'd say phrasing is much more important at the start, and most college jazz programs emphasize the same thing for beginners, soloing over simple blues and such. Of course that's after they do the required transcribing assignments found in every major jazz program. Listen to what others have done in the past and build from it rather than reinventing the wheel.

    The OP was looking for help getting started after all.

    Play other people's solos to start.
    Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 03-31-2014 at 03:11 PM.

  11. #35

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    To be fair to all the points of view, I don't think that one side is exclusive of the other. In other words, until the aspirant guitarist has acquired the technique and knowledge to simply play the melody and over the chord changes, copying or mimicking their favorite artists is pretty universal. And much of the learning is accomplished by doing and practicing for many hours. But, a good teacher can help facilitate that process and keep players on track. Ultimately, we must all learn for ourselves to find our own voice. There are definitely some tricks of the trade that can be imparted that are valuable and accelerate progress.

    Of course, a discussion of those 'secrets' would be interesting, though hands on demonstration is more powerful.

  12. #36

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    I often say telling beginners to transcribe is "lazy advice, " because most beginners can't hear jazz yet. There's gotta be some foundational work too.

    But you'll never get anywhere without using your ear and copping some licks...certainly wont really know how to swing...my first tune was grant green's selma march. My ears gave me the notes, but the foundation in musical understanding--ah, why be fancy--chord building, fretboard knowledge, etc..--helped me figure out the "why."

    another thing I tell folks is screw transcribing a solo right away...start with a melody! Why bother jazz soloing if you can't play a melody in a jazz style

  13. #37

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    Sorry, but you people saying to learn to improvise by copying other people's solos are demonstrably wrong. Classical players memorize countless compositions, and many cannot improvise a lick of music. The same is true of musicians in many other genres.

    What sets improvising musicians apart?

    They practice improvising.

    Granted, no one is a blank slate. Everything else you learn--theory, patterns, repertoire--will inform your improvisation. But the essential skill in improvisation is making shit up.

    We don't learn to write by copying down "For Whom the Bell Tolls". As soon as we have a few words, we start experimenting with combining them in our own ways. We improvise with language from the very beginning.

    Having established that one must practice improvising to learn to improvise, we can then surmise that a looping tool, combined with any source to learn heads, is the best resource.

    I like IRealB for a looping tool. Sometimes I learn heads from the Real Book; other times off recordings.

    Oh, and all Great Jazz Musicians brushed their teeth, so brush your teeth too.
    Last edited by Jonzo; 03-31-2014 at 05:28 PM.

  14. #38

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    One point that is worth noting is that jazz is a rich tradition, with a long history and in incredible amount of subtlety. Although a lot of can be explained in words, or music notation, or chord symbols, this still forms a small part of what it takes to be able to play jazz.

    And even certain things that *can* be described accurately are more quickly internalized by directly copying the greats than reading/analyzing/intellectualizing. As a simple example, a careful analysis (maybe with slow down software) might be used to accurately describe where to place the swinging 8th notes between quarter notes, maybe depending on tempo, jazz era, player, etc, Maybe books could be written which tabulate information like Player X playing at tempo Y tends to place his 8th note 57% of the way between quarter notes. But if one wanted to sound like Player X it would be a lot quicker to just to transcribe and play carefully along with a recording.

  15. #39

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    Copying jazz solos isn't like writing down a book word for word...it's like watching a great magician wriggle out of a straight jacket.

    Jazz is a puzzle. Study solutions.

  16. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Sorry, but you people saying to learn to improvise by copying other people's solos are demonstrably wrong. Classical players memorize countless compositions, and many cannot improvise a lick of music. The same is true of musicians in many other genres.

    What sets improvising musicians apart?

    They practice improvising.

    Granted, no one is a blank slate. Everything else you learn--theory, patterns, repertoire--will inform your improvisation. But the essential skill in improvisation is making shit up.

    We don't learn to write by copying down "For Whom the Bell Tolls". As soon as we have a few words, we start experimenting with combining them in our own ways. We improvise with language from the very beginning.

    Having established that one must practice improvising to learn to improvise, we can then surmise that a looping tool, combined with any source to learn heads, is the best resource.

    I like IRealB for a looping tool. Sometimes I learn heads from the Real Book; other times off recordings.

    Oh, and all Great Jazz Musicians brushed their teeth, so brush your teeth too.
    Demonstrably wrong...

    because classical players don't improvise ....

    and classical players play other peoples music...

    jazz musicians brush their teeth ...

    likewise learning other people's solos is a similar red herring unrelated to actually playing jazz ( of equal value to brushing teeth?)...

    so the answer to the OP's original question is...

    "looper"

    And transcription is a waste of valuable time for beginning students who could otherwise be practicing pure improvisation with a looper.

    Thread complete, problem solved!

  17. #41

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    For the record, I didn't say anything was a waste of time. Go ahead and transcribe.

    And everyone really should brush their teeth.
    Last edited by Jonzo; 03-31-2014 at 05:53 PM.

  18. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by voxss
    thanks WIZ..id be interested to hear what your approach is..

    Thanks again to all. And like voxss, I'd also be interested in hearing wizard3739's approach. |
    I basically do the following for practice:

    1) 2 - 4 hrs per day, sometime more.
    2) I play 10-20 old standards using BIAB tracks in a few different keys, improvising by ear. I usually use 3-4 choruses with the melody as the 1st chorus to work on chord voicings. I often have my wife with me singing at least 1 chorus.
    3) I try to transcribe & analyze at least 1 song every day (old standards by jazz masters, Mostly not guitarists).
    4) I will often try to compose an original song.
    5) If I have an upcoming gig, I will use the songs for the gig for Item 3 above.
    6) My Wife & I listen a lot to the jazz masters, usually on Pandora.

    I no longer practice scales, chords or intervals, only actual songs.

    This process works well for me, so I am never bored with practice but I should mention I am probably a fanatic with the jazz music.

    best wishes, wiz

  19. #43

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    Copying jazz recordings - head, solos, chords, is the most direct way of developing your ears to be an improvisor. Jazz is all about your ears. It isn't right until it sounds right. How do you know if it sounds right? Your ears tell you it's right, not some book. How do your ears know it's right? You have to listen to jazz and copy it on your instrument until it's in your head. A book can't put it in your head, and training your ear separate from your instrument doesn't translate to being able to execute on your instrument.

    Ideally, a teacher/mentor, some theory, books, recordings, and other jazz musicians to play with is a nice way to go, but why do we think that jazz improvising is really that different than learning to improvise blues, rock, country, bluegrass, etc? With all the other genres we accept that the best way to learn is to listen and copy, rather than study books. Why do we think jazz is any different? Because it's more complex? There's only 12 notes. Sonny Rollins was a jazz expert at age 20, without books, looper or backing tracks.
    Last edited by cosmic gumbo; 03-31-2014 at 05:47 PM.

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Sorry, but you people saying to learn to improvise by copying other people's solos are demonstrably wrong. Classical players memorize countless compositions, and many cannot improvise a lick of music. The same is true of musicians in many other genres.

    What sets improvising musicians apart?

    They practice improvising.

    Granted, no one is a blank slate. Everything else you learn--theory, patterns, repertoire--will inform your improvisation. But the essential skill in improvisation is making shit up.

    We don't learn to write by copying down "For Whom the Bell Tolls". As soon as we have a few words, we start experimenting with combining them in our own ways. We improvise with language from the very beginning.

    Having established that one must practice improvising to learn to improvise, we can then surmise that a looping tool, combined with any source to learn heads, is the best resource.

    I like IRealB for a looping tool. Sometimes I learn heads from the Real Book; other times off recordings.

    Oh, and all Great Jazz Musicians brushed their teeth, so brush your teeth too.
    Thanks for reminding me to add you to my "ignore" list.

  21. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    Sorry, but you people saying to learn to improvise by copying other people's solos are demonstrably wrong. Classical players memorize countless compositions, and many cannot improvise a lick of music.
    This has nothing to do with learning compositions and everything to do with the established method of performing the music.

    In the concert arena, compositions are considered sacrosanct. One may interpret but one must not change anything. Despite historical records that tell us that many of the Great Composers, Bach, Mozart et al. were exceptional improvisers and that many of their written compositions began as improvisations.

    In the realm of jazz, when someone learns a solo he or she is expected to mess with it. Dissect and employ parts of the learned solo in other tunes or use portions of the learned solo to stimulate their own creative processes.

    It has been stated ad nauseum on this forum but ALL of the jazz greats that we revere learned their craft by copying the solos of other players. This is such a simple concept. Why do people have so much trouble grasping it.

    Regards,
    Jerome

  22. #46

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    Because its work that you do right away.

    It's easy to get caught up in chords and scales and making charts and drop 2 and drop 3 and what to play over what, because you don't have to hear yourself suck if you avoid ever playing actual music.

  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonzo
    What sets improvising musicians apart?

    They practice improvising.

    Granted, no one is a blank slate. Everything else you learn--theory, patterns, repertoire--will inform your improvisation. But the essential skill in improvisation is making shit up.
    .
    Some people think this way. Carol Kaye is one example; she doesn't think transcribing helps players much and she doesn't recommend learning other people's solos. But here's the thing: she thinks Joe Pass was among the greatest of jazz guitar players and he said improvising was NOT 'making it up on the spot' but rather, reorganizing things you know.

    Not everyone---not even all the pros---agree about this but enough pros have said that improvisation is NOT "making it up on the spot" for the position to be considered credible.

    Perhaps another way to see this: if the main thing about improvising is "making shit up" one would expect all good improvisors to be good composers. Certainly some, say a Miles or a Sonny Rollins, can (or could) improvise and compose at a high level. But Duke Ellington, among the greatest composers in the history of jazz, was not a great improvisor. Louis Armstrong was a genius improviser but not a great composer.I love Charlie Christian and Wes Montgomery---and they both came up with some first-rate tunes---but I don't think anyone considers their compositional skills to be at the same high level as their soloing / performance skills.

  24. #48

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    All jazz greats did many things to learn their craft. They improvised, played scales, transcribed... Take your pick.

    I am not trying to make this into an argument on the merits of transcription. But one can learn to duplicate solos without learning to improvise, and one can learn to improvise without duplicating solos.

    Consider a thought experiment:

    Player A memorizes a famous solo over 10 tunes perfectly over the course of a year.

    Player B learns the melodies to 10 tunes and experiments with making up a variety of solos to each over the course of a year.

    At the end of the year, who can you put on the bandstand and have them improvise over the tunes?

    Now if you are saying that transcription "in the realm of jazz" = improvising with someone else's concepts, then that is a different discussion.

    Maybe I took the OP too literally. Some people are offering up 5 or 6 "best" resources. It goes without saying that doing a single type of exercise is not going to make you a well rounded player. But if you are going to limit yourself to 1 best resource to learn improvisation, it must involve improvising. Forced choices about what is "best" make you leave out many good and even essential options. Forced to choose one resource, I would work with a looper.

    Obviously, balanced practice is going to incorporate information coming in, and creation, or at least synthesis, going out.

    By the way, no offence meant to anyone. Telling someone they are wrong--and why--is a typical dinner table discussion at my house, and we all still love each other.
    Last edited by Jonzo; 03-31-2014 at 09:06 PM.

  25. #49

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    At the end of one year? Shit, neither, if I had any sense of sympathy

  26. #50
    OP here. Thanks everyone. Quite spirited here. I think what would be cool (for me, anyway) would be to just improvise to recorded chords of tunes playing in the background. Also, learning stuff out of some books. So a combination of everything, with an emphasis on playing the axe.