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This is a question I asked in another thread, but I think it might need its own thread :
Originally Posted by Reg
When I see or hear D-7... the fretboard becomes one large grid with all the notes from what ever note collection I choose to represent that D-7.
This is something I'd like to achieve. Right now, if I see or hear D-7, I'll view the D-7 chord shape closest to where my fretting hand is and one of its corresponding scales depending on what I choose to play. Then I can play D-7 all over the fretboard, but only by going from one D-7 shape to another, I can't visualize one large shape all over the fingerboard. What kind of exercises could help me learn that ?
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03-29-2014 08:38 AM
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I'm not sure there is a shortcut or exercise...it takes time. I notice my note pool getting bigger, if ever so gradually, every year...
But ask yourself, can you ever actually see the whole fretboard at once? Mentally perhaps...but in actually playing being able to shift your sight reference quickly is more valuable...
One thing that's always been helpful for me is when I learn an idea, I learn it in the same key in different registers...
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This is something I'm working on now also. I'm finding that learning my drop 3 and 2 chords on all strings sets and corresponding inversions up the neck is helping me with this. As someone who has studied the CAGED system in the past, I find it helps me to learn a scale pattern with each position/inversion.
Then I play them in 251s in different keys, various rhythmic variations, apply to actual tunes, etc.
steve
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I was taught how to connect the whole neck from my first instructor with a very thorough instruction of the CAGED positions.
From those landmarks you can derive all your chord types, arpeggios and scales in each of the positions using a derivitive approach (i.e. to change from major to dominant flat the 7, etc).
Then you learn how the positions overlap and connect. Eventually you don't think 'CAGED', you just end up with the whole fretboard mapped in your mind. Not exactly one image, but multiple images that connect that I can slide back and forth from and to.
It is a process, I'm really comfortable with minor 7, major 7, and dominant 7 chords, the related arpeggios and the related 'simple modes' all over the neck going either horizontally or vertically.
When it comes to altered chords and the modes of the melodic minor scale, the whole tone scale, and the diminished scale... I'm not at a point where I see the whole neck for these as one. For those I'm only comfortable at a couple of positions.Last edited by fep; 03-29-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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I can only comment on what has worked for me, and it's not in by the conventional CAGED method so do take this with a grain of salt. I have avoided the convenience of position playing because I wanted to make sure that the guidance in my music came from the ear and not the hand. So I learn slowly, to play slowly (on purpose).
First is to know each note exactly where it occurs on the fingerboard. Know it beyond an instant. Where is that D on the third string? F# on the fifth?
From that point, I think it's important to know each interval from that note. Major 3rd within the octave above, Major 3rd in the octave below...
Chord tones are good to learn first... Major 7th chord components, minor 7th chord elements...
I tell my students to then combine the notes learned and create melodies. Save them, make little tunes, internalize. Each new note will add an awareness not only of position, but offer different fingering combinations not available in a fixed position. Plus, this way, the value, the melodic value of each note becomes internalized as you learn the fingerboard.
It's a longer process at first, but it has the advantage of training your intervallic ear in the process, avoiding an often easier but habit forming practice of hand habit. Also if you choose to use chromatic, outside structures or voice led harmonies, a good connection with voices and ear, and the visualization of individual melodic lines is really good to have as your foundation.
Yes, I know this is not a normal approach. It's served me well anyway.
Oh yes, I might mention that when you get to the point where you're making small melodic phrases, sing them and rhythmicise everything. It's the best way to use these intervallic elements in a musical vocabulary.
Have fun
David
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On a 22 fret guitar, there are 138 paces to play notes with standard technique.
There are 47 different notes (3 octaves plus a minor 7th)
Viewing each fingering, each chord, etc as a singular event to be connected to other singular events is a long path.
Seeing relationships between note combinations greatly speeds the process (in my opinion).
Intervals are the fundamental building block of note relationships.
The fingerboard mirrors itself at unisons and octaves in a not quite symmetrical system (in standard tuning).
Learning to see how each musical event reoccurs at all the possible octave and unison locations helps greatly in making this large undertaking of fingerboard knowledge more manageable.
All locations of one note (C)
----------------------------------------8----------------------------------------------20---
---------------------------------1---------------------------------------------13------------------
---------------------------5--------------------------------------------17-------------------------
-------------------10-------------------------------------------22-----------------------------------
-----------3--------------------------------------------15------------------------------------------
----8-------------------------------------------20---------------------------------------------------
Octaves
Single string octaves
--------0------12-------
Adjacent string pairs E-A // A-D // D-G // B-E
----------7--------------------
----0--------------------------
G-B only
-----------8----------------------
----0-----------------------------
String pairs with one skip E-D // A-G
---------2-------------------------
----------------------------------
----0------------------------------
D-B and G-E
----------3------------------------
----------------------------------
----0-----------------------------
String pairs with 2 skips E-G
----------0---------------------
--------------------------------
--------------------------------
----3-----------------------------
A-B and D-E
-----------0-----------------------
------------------------------------
------------------------------------
---2--------------------------------
Octaves the big view
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------23----------------------------------6-----
----------------------------------------------------23------------------16-------------------------6-----------------------
-----------------------22------------------15--------------------8--------------------------------------------3-----------
---------------15--------------------8---------------------1---------------------------------3------------------------------
---------8---------------------1--------------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
---1------------------------------------------------------------------------------------1---------------------------------------
Unison
Adjacent string pairs E-A // A-D // D-G // B-E
----------0--------------------------------
--5----------------------------------------
G-B only
---------0----------------------------------
---4----------------------------------------
Unisons the big view
-----------------------------------------------------------------------1------------------
---------------------------------1------------------------------6-------------------------
---------------------------5----------------------------10---------------------------------
-------------------10---------------------------15-------------------------------------------
-----------15---------------------------20---------------------------------------------------
---20---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This was an important piece for me in gaining control of the fingerboard, this combined with studying how to navigate all keys within any 5 frets. Knowing where everything is has been a big help but it still leaves that also not so small endeavor of figuring out what I want to play and how best to play it.
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I visualise the fretboard as a whole, with parent note patterns and child note patterns, I changed to 4th tuning about 4 years ago, so I had to relearn the notes on the two high strings.
I use this simple system, the fretboard has 7 parent patterns, each pattern has 3 child patterns (or partial child patterns).
When I changed to 4th tuning, I played these patterns for months in all 12 keys, then I only played the chord tone notes for Major, Dominant and minor. I visualise each pattern, sing the note names and the interval names.
The diagram below is for 4th tuning, but it could easily be changed for standard tuning.
Last edited by GuyBoden; 03-29-2014 at 03:21 PM.
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For the OP, I would just say keep doing what you're doing and maybe add a thing or two if there's anything in this thread that isn't yet part of your practice. Do you ever do any work on one or two strings at a time?
I still have a lot of work ahead, but what I've been doing seems to be helping. That would namely be a variety of stuff-various chord voicings (Low Freddy Green style, top 4 strings, 3 and 2 note voicings, etc.), playing different linear stuff (licks, melodies, fragments) in various positions and with different fingerings, and then doing a lot of work with one or two strings at a time. Even Wes-style octave playing seems to help.
TruthHertz and Bako, one thing I have not done is dedicated practice of just intervals, so your posts are interesting. Maybe I'll look into that some.
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IMHO, knowing the whole fretboard is essential, being restricted to playing in a limited area of the fretboard is like being a prisoner, once you know how to navigate the whole fretboard you are free, unfortunately it takes some hard work to earn this freedom.
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Thanks everyone for the suggestions. I'm currently practicing playing octaves to force myself to really connect the different areas of the fingerboard.
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In my experience the easiest way to learn the fretboard perfectly is to use Segovia's major and minor diatonic scales in every key. Because you are playing intervals from a tonic in the scale, you will quickly learn the notes in every fret position. At that point it is important to harmonize the scale by using the two strings adjacent to the note you are playing in the scale. This will help you develop a kind of 'triad awareness' of the chord fragments in every fret position, which is helpful to develop good voice leading.
The notes are there on the fret board and the chord fragments as well. That is the awareness you need to cultivate. And of course the technical agility to play a song anywhere on the fret board and in any key.
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Single string practice and string pairs helps with this tremendously. Guitar is a two dimensional instrument, horizontal and vertical. To really master the fretboard you have to be able to get around both directions.
Jim Hall said he used to tape off certain strings so he would have to practice getting around without them. There's an Abercrombie video where he talks about this. There was also really great Metheny video with an interview with a French magazine where he demonstrates this, but I think it was taken down.
Also if you transcribe any bebop solos, or work out of the omnibook, you'll start expanding your field of view, because they will take you all over the neck.
There's also a cool video with Carl Verheyen, where he talks about talking a scale or arpeggio, and being able to play it from the lowest available note on the fretboard on the neck up to the highest, and then come back down with a different route, and then back up with yet a different route, and so on. I've been practicing this, and it really helps you to think fast, and get away from seeing one position at a time. Those Metheny videos where he's warming up demonstrates a similar concept.
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Does anybody truthfully see a given pitch class on the entire fretboard at one time? If I'm playing in a certain pitch environment on the 12th fret, there's no way in hell I'm seeing a scale shape down on the 3rd fret at the same time. Of course I could be totally wrong but aside from a person with Synesthesia or some other phenomenon, I have a hard time believing that somebody can visualize a specific pattern on 6 strings across 20 frets all at one time.
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Yes... and I don't really need to think about it... I've trained myself to hear and see my fretboard in a complete manor. I took the time years ago to layout grids and fingerings of each harmonic reference.
I sometime need a few seconds refresh my memory of grids I don't use very often... if you understand what your playing... it's very simple to remember. Personally it always easier to construct memory with relationships from a reference(s)...as compared to everything being a complete memorization in it's self.
It's a process, If you can visualize one small pattern, then expand etc... From my experience, which is years at the professional level most guitarist hit walls from weak starting references....
- lousy and incomplete fingerings
- lousy technique
- not understanding what their playing (little if any theoretical and harmonic reference).
I'm nobody, average talent in pretty much everything... but I can cover, because I worked at being able to.
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I think maybe Wes had this down ...
some of his runs seem to use a Lot of
up and down the neck biz
I wish i knew what he was thinking ...
various caged shapes or one BIG shape
or something else ?
or maybe i doesn't matter really
hmmm
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Wherever I am I try to see intervals
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Lol you really can't believe it? Have you ever watched Wes, Metheny, or Julian Lage get around the fretboard? They sure as hell aren't thinking in terms of positions or boxes.
Originally Posted by bluewaterpig
Are you able to see the fretboard better now than last year, or two years ago, or ten years ago? I'm sure you can imagine that (provided you actually work on it) you'll be seeing it that much better a year, or two, or ten years from now.
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Watch this rare interview with Metheny, (especially after 6 min or so), where he talks about getting around the fretboard linearly rather than in positions:
PrivateJack_Patmetheny
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Total awareness concept, as far as my ability, is a wishfull thinking. I think it's about knowing where you are, what will work, what might work and will not work, as well as what I can do, I might try doing and can not do. Having that in mind I can take my chances, depending of situation. Ican name each note on the neck, but note names do not come to mind while playing, not all of them, I mean. What comes to mind is idea of how that nameless note "over there" would sound in context.
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So what's the goal, the end results.... do you want the entire fretboard to be at your disposal, play whatever you hear, see, want or think you hear or see...just be able to interact and react yada yada.
It's all the same in the end, scales, arpeggios, intervals, chords etc.. its all going on all the time. You, the context, the situation, there is always a reference from which what your playing relates to, your either playing from that reference or creating relationships and developing.
All the techniques used for being aware of what your playing, or just being able to play are a process to become aware and be able to play, in this example... anything anywhere on your fretboard.
When I play an arpeggio, A, C, E, G, is it 1,3,5 and 7 of A-7 or 9, 11, 13, and 1 of Gma7
How about, A, C, E, G, G#, C, E, Ab, G, from 6th string 5th fret up to 1st string 3rd fret... Are G# and Ab simple chromatic notes or are they part of a chord pattern, or am I using Modal interchange, A dorian to A melodic Min. to create relationships...
My point is... with out a method of being able to perform... "anything anywhere on your fretboard", your going to hit walls with respect to being able to be aware of what, or what possible references and relationships are going on when your playing Jazz.
It's just not that hard to develop fretboard awareness... there are no secrets. Any teacher should be able to lay it out to any student in One Lesson. Better yet, lay it out yourself.
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For me, I do see the entirety of what's available across the fretboard for any given harmonic environment, from the lowest to highest note. Be it the chord tones, altered tones and extensions, intervallic relationships, possible scales. If given, say, an Ebmaj7 chord, the whole fretboard "lights up" (metaphorically) with what's possible, given it's function and context.
It takes time, but is worth the effort to develop.
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Is it one big shape or Originally Posted by Scott Jones
5 ( or so) interconnected (caged) shapes
or does the latter morph into the former ?
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For me, it's one big shape. Of course, the CAGED system is a good way in to seeing connected, interlocking shapes, but I have always just taken every chord and mapped them out visually, all over the fretboard. From there, having those chord tones at your fingertips, you can derive other options in a similar fashion. Originally Posted by pingu
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There are a couple really useful positions on the fretboard for jazz guitarists.
In the key of G these would be:
G on low E string in both directions both up and down the fretboard.
G on A string in both directions both up and down the fretboard.
Better to master a couple useful positions than be half-assed at many.
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Hey Scott...
Cool, nice to hear. So adding to what Scott said...
The entirety of what's available, so there's generally organization behind what that entirety is, a reference and relationship, even it's just... I like it, or it sounds good.
Remember... function is just what creates the harmonic movement, the motor which creates chordal or melodic movement. There are a few organizational methods of creating function.
The content can be a reference, or a relationship developed from a reference.
Here is a very simple organization approach to becoming aware of your fretboard. ( a start)
Play Amin... Aeolian, the 6th degree of Cmaj. Start with two octaves in 4th position, with 1st finger stretches...
6th st.... A B
5th st.....C D E (stretch 1st finger for C)
4th st.....F G A ( st. 1st finger again)
etc...
You should know all fingering of Cmaj scale starting on each degree of that scale beginning on the 6th string and playing two octaves in position, 7 positions. If you only know 5 or what ever, use what you know to cover the entire fretboard.
So using Amin as the Tonal reference... play all those scales in position again. You should now have the entire fretboard together in reference to... Amin. Aeolian.
So personally I have always used... A nat. min. as reference when playing or (creating a relationship with Harmonic Min). And I generally use Dorian fingerings as my reference for playing Melodic Min. You can easily use Amin. Aeolian, just raisethe 6th and the 7th.
( My reasoning for using Dorian... I believe Jazz uses developmental relationships with Dorian and Melodic Min.
Harmocic Min.... is really dated and incomplete. Doesn't cover playing in a jazz style. Very subjective, but that's my personal view and can can very easily have a discussion about any aspect of that subject.)
This is with respect to fingerings... technique, fretboard awareness. Not theory, harmony or any compositional or improvisational approach... just technique.
My beginning fingering reference is always Major scale fingerings and positions. (or arpeggios, chords )
So now Play that beginning Amin. Aeolian scale... now raise the 7th degree, the G to G#.
The next step is to take each degree of that Amin. Aeolian scale and move up the fretboard and change the G's to G#'s... your on the way towards fretboard awareness. this is just the physical fingering awareness. But we're just after the technique now... the relational harmonic and theoretical awareness also should be developed... but that is much more difficult. Later.
I go through the same process with Amin. Dorian and A melodic min.
Eventually you will become aware of one large grid that reflects, Amin. Aeolian... then becomes Amin Dorian, then Amin. Melodic Min.
The notes may have different names because of the references and relationships... but the notes and basic reference fingerings remain the same.
This approach is a step in a process to an end result. Fretboard awareness.
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