When improvising, do you...

[Nabil B]

Say you're improvising on a tune you know well, and you're performing (not practicing). What description fits you the most ? I realize things are not that neatly categorized in real life, but hopefully everyone will be able to pick the description that fits them the most.

[randalljazz]

[princeplanet]

Um, neither of those choices for me. I'd love to say #4, but I usually " hear" stuff in my head that takes a while to workout. Maybe one day .....

[bobby d]

I'm sure that some of us get to number 4 sometimes and it's an ideal place to be in Jazz improv. Thinking about the names of the chords seems necessary on more complicated progressions. But, recognizing patterns on the fretboard and knowing what they sound like is better IMO.

[Vladan]

I'd vote for all mentioned answers.
I think
1. before the song start, and during the song before my turn. Not always, but sometimes.
2. all the time as long as I know what the chords are being played, and as long as I can follow. Not always, but ...
3. rarely, but sometimes. I mean, my fingers noodle, but only after 1. and during 2.
4. even more rare than 3, but ...

[Susan Palmer]

I'm sure you can identify each letter in the word "guitar" quickly and with ease. It feels effortless because you mastered all the letters, slowly and carefully. You then learned to build words using letters, and now you recognize words very easily. Reading is complex, and if you learned to read, you can learn to do amazing things on guitar.

I remember being a teenager and asking my teacher if he thought about what key he was in, the function of the note over the chord, the function of the note over the key, or if he just listened when he played/soloed. He shocked me by saying that he thought of all those things.

I created a system for learning all of those things when I was in my 20s and now (in my late 30s) I can say that I also think of all those things while I play/solo. (My system involves studying the chord tones first and is in my book.) If you have the right plan for you, accountability, and application, this is all very doable. It takes some time (3-12 months) but time is going to go by anyway.

Here's a video that outlines my approach to learning the chord tones on guitar:

[mr. beaumont]

I'm visual...I certainly don't think about the names of chords...that's kinda the kiss of death, really...too much thinking and you shoot yourself in the foot. But i see shapes, possibilities. When I know a tune really well, I hear a kind of simple melody that weaves through the changes and my fingers connect the dots, playing some other notes to get me from here to there...stuff I've practiced enough times that it just "comes out."

So I'm not hearing every single 8th note at 250bpm...but I might hear a shape of maybe, 8 to 16 notes ver 8 bars, and my hands do the rest. I imagine the more I play the more I'll hear....but that's where I'm at now--when I'm really feeling it...which is certainly not always!

[pingu]

So I'm not hearing every single 8th note at 250bpm...but I might hear a shape

Yeah I think I'm starting to hear the shapes too Mr B , mainly the caged shapes and the 'blues box' shapes
and these help me to try play some of the stuff I hear in my head
at slow tempos that is , (at fast tempos its just licks)

I don't enjoy playing fast .......
That "How fast are you?" thread just kills me
I don't read that anymore it just depresses me

[Nabil B]

Before, I would memorize a succession of shapes for each tune. Problem with that method is that I quickly forgot the tune when I practiced that way. Now I memorize the name of the chords and how they relate to each other (ie : starts on I, minor II V I a half step below, major II V I a whole step below... little game : which tune is this ?). I also always associate each chord shape with a scale, and strive to master the changes all over the fingerboard. As others have said, the goal for every jazz musician is to not think at all. Personally, I'm not there yet (sometimes I am, but not nearly as often as I would like) so in the meantime, I need to think about the chords. This is what allows me to "map" the fingerboard in order to play what I hear more easily.

[pingu]

Now I memorize the name of the chords and how they relate to each other (ie : starts on I, minor II V I a half step below, major II V I a whole step below... little game : which tune is this ?).

There will never be ..... ?

[Nabil B]

There will never be ..... ?

That's correct

[Flyin' Brian]

I just sort of play. Recently at a jam a woman came up and handed 3 charts to me and the bass player.

She said "just play a 1-6-2-5 intro a couple of times through and then I'll sing the form twice, you play on the A section twice, I'll come back on B and we'll tag the ending".

Then she gave us a count at about 200 and off we went. There was no time to do much other than take note of the changes while she was singing and play something during the solo. Since we don't often have any other harmony instrument, I usually use a lot of arpeggio type things in solos to keep the intent of the song to the forefront.

[Klatu]

I just sort of play. Recently at a jam a woman came up and handed 3 charts to me and the bass player.

She said "just play a 1-6-2-5 intro a couple of times through and then I'll sing the form twice, you play on the A section twice, I'll come back on B and we'll tag the ending".

Then she gave us a count at about 200 and off we went. There was no time to do much other than take note of the changes while she was singing and play something during the solo. Since we don't often have any other harmony instrument, I usually use a lot of arpeggio type things in solos to keep the intent of the song to the forefront.

That would scare me to death!

[coolvinny]

I just sort of play. Recently at a jam a woman came up and handed 3 charts to me and the bass player.

She said "just play a 1-6-2-5 intro a couple of times through and then I'll sing the form twice, you play on the A section twice, I'll come back on B and we'll tag the ending".

Then she gave us a count at about 200 and off we went. There was no time to do much other than take note of the changes while she was singing and play something during the solo. Since we don't often have any other harmony instrument, I usually use a lot of arpeggio type things in solos to keep the intent of the song to the forefront.

I'd struggle to solo on an unfamiliar tune at 200...but other than that I like this woman's style! A singer who can
'"speak music form" gets my respect for sure.

[edh]

You know she's been around the musical block a few times.

[Reg]

You fake it until you get to that point or level of playing where... you recognize on paper or can hear any tune.
All music fits into a "Form". That includes all the BS... melodic, harmonic, rhythmic, any element of the music.

It's not that difficult... it just takes lots of time from trial and error or time spent becoming aware of what those forms are. (both)

The skill of reading well and understanding what your reading... helps to be able to visualize how music fits into Forms.

You also need to be able to hear what your reading and that understanding of what your reading.

In reference to the question...I know I've posted this a million times, but the basic formula for improvisation or any aspect of playing is...

1) The reference... where you begin, the starting reference.

2) Relationships... what you or the music creates in reference to that reference.

3) Development ... how you or the music deals with those relationships... where you take it

Flyin Brians example is basically what I do...

That's a simple example of live performance... there are Macro and micro aspects of those three steps of playing.

The reference would have been the Tune... With a chart, it's fairly straight ahead. The intro was spelled out so you only need to reference the harmonic aspects of the tune.... Which I IV II V you play... the actual changes.

Besides the actual chart... the vocalist will create relationships with the reference, (the chart). How she sings the tune, the embellishments etc... those Relationships can become Developments, if you choose to do so.

Bryans approach... using arpeggios to spell out, or imply the harmonic aspects of the chart will work great... But really is just spelling out the basic Reference. Improve general involves creating relationships and developing them.

Much easier said than done... not really. When you become aware of Forms and what fits into those Forms... your able to create Relationships and Develop those relationships. With most vocalist you almost mechanically develop a simple relationship... a melodic, harmonic or rhythmic aspect of the Tune... usually you've already played through the tune a couple of times. Anyway... the mechanical aspect is... you need to stay within that form for a set number of times etc...
so your improvisation has limits... somewhat Micro.

Personally in that example I usually try and create something different that will create a little tension so when the vocalist comes back in at the bridge, the music feels like we're back... or we're going somewhere, something. But with the same example in three different live performances... the results would be different every time.

OK... I'm a pro, so I've already gone through all the BS. But my approach has always been not to let the mechanical or technical aspect of my playing the guitar... get in the way of what I'm playing. I may choose to let or make a sound from a fingering or where I'm play on the neck influence what I'm playing... but I try and be aware. I play the guitar... the guitar doesn't interpret what I hear, because of my technical abilities. Again easier said than done... but that's my basic reference...

[Jonzo]

I created a system for learning all of those things when I was in my 20s and now (in my late 30s) I can say that I also think of all those things while I play/solo. (My system involves studying the chord tones first and is in my book.) If you have the right plan for you, accountability, and application, this is all very doable. It takes some time (3-12 months) but time is going to go by anyway.

Here's a video that outlines my approach to learning the chord tones on guitar:

I think Amazon has got this book selling thing figured out. How about sharing a few sample pages?

[targuit]

How and what you play depends so much on the format - solo, duet, trio, instrumental or with vocals as so on. For example, if I'm playing a song like The Shadow of Your Smile solo with vocals, if I'm singing the melody, I just play the guitar part that I hear as the harmony very naturally. But lately, I'm feeling more how the style affects what I'm playing. With this song that I'm working on recording these days, I've been using it as a vehicle for playing through it in a Baroque through Brazilian Bossa through tango style with vocals, kind of like George Shearing would do. In a sense, the style is determined fundamentally by the rhythm and time. With or without swing or syncopation. The permutations become even more when I use my Sibelius transcription as the rhythm and improvise over it live with guitar. When home recording, I record it as a duet or trio plus vocals.

I've been listening to too much George Shearing lately...

Jay

[Stevebol]

Chords first, then melody. Nothing else.

[henryrobinett]

Sing with my guitar. Imagine shapes, colors and spaces. I listen and react, like in a conversation. If I know the song very well I don't even think about chords so much. I see shapes and follow intervals. I'm always aware of the 3rd and 7th-- all of them and often pivot from them. But I try not to think. Trying's not part of it. I don't think if I know the song. Just react. That's when I'm playing at my best. No judgement.

[wizard3739]

For improvisation, I look at the key signature, then the chords and then just what my ear says is right. It is usually easy if I am familiar with the song. I know melody lines of many, many songs.

wiz

[Lionelsax]

I cannot vote, on the guitar I think about the neck and chords progression but my fingers cannot play what I would like, they just play bad habits.
To be honest... I would say I'm noodling on the guitar !

[Jonah]

For me from the very beginning there was only one problem: how to correspond what I hear with what I play.
I always heard, it has never been a problem.

It is like typing - when you hear somebody say 'word' you can type it by hearing - every sound pronounced corresponds with a letter, every letter with a key...

How to achieve it - this is where the concept comes out. We would not type that easily if we did not undertand a word, a language, meaning- this is the important thing.

So my goal was always just to sing with guitar... learning changes, chords, fingerings, substitutions, voicings, harmonies etc. is only a tool that should help me to do just one thing 'type immediately a word that comes to my mind'.
Imagine you are mute and the only way to speak is that keyboard, and way to sing this fretboard... this is technical issue of it, not the improvization itself.
Actually to improvize I need to have something to say/sing.. some conten, meaning - patterns and licks will not speak for me.
So it is crazy to thunk about chords when I sing... it is like writing poems thinking of letters and grammar rules unless you write a poem about grammar of course.
What is my music telling about? Is it telling about chord changes? How interesting it should be!
This is what I ask myself. This is not necessarily to put and answer down in words.. but to put such a question to myself is enough to get more concentration on meaning.

To think is one thing, to know is another. How exactly we use knowledge and experience, we cannot always be sure.
I know what I am doing but I do not think about it.

If suddenly when I play I find out that I start thinking about chord then it means that I am back to school for this moment, I am learning now. It is not bad, it can be even fun, this is process, it is ok.
But after all I want to sing...

[targuit]

It is hard to explain what happens when you play what you hear. It is the result of years, decades, or more experience. But, once you can do that, it all seems so simple in many ways. A pianist whom I respect profoundly for his musical skills approaches music as simply a numbers game. Intervals from the tonic. And indeed, once you have profoundly imbedded in your consciousness the harmonization of major and minor scales on the fret board, as well as the characteristics (modal) of chords in terms of scales (as harmonization of the scale - major, minor7, dominant 7, etc.) and the typical chord progressions in jazz (ii7-V7- I, etc.), then much improvisation means playing the melody and harmonizing it. It becomes pretty innate. How that happens I cannot describe. Thought and expression become one.

But as much as I enjoy theorizing, in the end I depend upon my ear. Thinking explicitly about the music for me is distracting. I listen to the music and follow the harmonic implications. So many on the forum have correctly pointed out the value of singing the melody. Somehow in ways I cannot explain singing for me hooks me into the music in a visceral way that allows me to bypass conscious thought processes and simply 'dream' the music metaphorically.


Or as I admired in a quote from Van Gogh. "I dream the painting and I paint my dream."

Jay

[Jonah]

Somehow in ways I cannot explain singing for me hooks me into the music in a visceral way that allows me to bypass conscious thought processes and simply 'dream' the music metaphorically.

I believe that it is because we are in some context, in some conventional musical reality alredy and we hear lots of musical events as natural to us.
And voice is one of the instruments which responds quickest.
I used to play trombone in the army band and I noticed that when I hear a note but move a slide in a wrong position for this note I do not play just wrong note, actually I cannot make any clear sound at all - this is because embouchure instinctively tries to take shape for correct note, but cannot find it in this slide position and makes just noise.
Voice works very close to it...

Actually I thought about also when I got in historical plucked instruments. It is easy to notice that instruments before 18th century approx. were constructed with an aim frist of all to sound close to human voice, and this concept was not only imitaitve, it was like a musical ideology - by human voice they meant not only the capability to make sound, but an expression of a human personality, a voice of human soul. That is why those instruments are fit best for groups, and even when played solo they are so rich with harmonics and ovetones that they sound like a consort of instruments. Because the idea was to express limitless nuances of human nature, 'a soul as a universe'.
Later it changed - it became like 'a soul alone in a universe 'The instruments became luoder, tone sharper, more flexible, they became capable to imitate anything but lost this charm of sound complexity and profoundness when one note sounded like a chord.

And jazz is rooted in vocal imitation directlly not metaphorically but straight... in classical improvization there are huge means of expression of functional tonality - it does not have to deal with singing.
But jazz originally had no other means... and I think that now behind modern complex concepts it stays the same simple singing a line when it really works.