When improvising, do you...

**henryrobinett** · 08-27-2014, 02:12 AM

BUT - I have a piano student I'm teaching improv to. He's a good singer and a stage theater actor, dancer - the whole nine yards. I am trying to get him to NOT sing his solos. I'm trying to get him to play more linearly, more bop or more chromatically. But when he sings his lines it all sounds pretty "sing song" lol. Boring, vanilla. He does get some melodic stuff, but there's not enough variety and it sounds the same too much.

So singing is good if you have something good to sing. He's very talented. Just needs to mix it up.

**princeplanet** · 08-27-2014, 02:45 AM

Very interesting point Henry, and one that I've never seen mentioned. With the "singing" bit being the conduit between the mind and the fingers, this idea infers that if you can't sing, then you don't "hear" it, therefore you aren't really playing what you hear. But what if you can't accurately sing what you "hear"? Singing range and voice quality is an issue here. I run out of range all the time, and octave displacement with singing just doesn't seem to help. I prefer to sing it in my head and get the fingers to express that.

But then there are the complex and/or quick lines, like certain boppish chromatic enclosures that are just hard to sing. Some folks can actually sing what the play, some just kinda hear it in their heads. I don't think that those of us in the latter category are necessarily faking it if we're playing lines we're not able to sing accurately at tempo. I think you can establish a correlation directly between the mind and the fingers when feeling you're way through improv, and cut out the middle man! (the singing part). Anyway, I think that players who sing and play simultaneously for fast lines are usually singing what they have played before, as opposed to playing something they've never sung before. For slower lines maybe.....

**Nabil B** · 08-27-2014, 04:38 AM

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

BUT - I have a piano student I'm teaching improv to. He's a good singer and a stage theater actor, dancer - the whole nine yards. I am trying to get him to NOT sing his solos. I'm trying to get him to play more linearly, more bop or more chromatically. But when he sings his lines it all sounds pretty "sing song" lol. Boring, vanilla. He does get some melodic stuff, but there's not enough variety and it sounds the same too much.

So singing is good if you have something good to sing. He's very talented. Just needs to mix it up.

This guy is singing what he hears. If he stops singing, how will that make his playing more bopish/less vanilla ? Seems to me that his problem is his lack of vocabulary. Maybe he didn't really listen and studied the great bop players, or not enough. Wouldn't that be the most effective way to fix his problem ?

**Nabil B** · 08-27-2014, 04:50 AM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

Very interesting point Henry, and one that I've never seen mentioned. With the "singing" bit being the conduit between the mind and the fingers, this idea infers that if you can't sing, then you don't "hear" it, therefore you aren't really playing what you hear. But what if you can't accurately sing what you "hear"? Singing range and voice quality is an issue here. I run out of range all the time, and octave displacement with singing just doesn't seem to help. I prefer to sing it in my head and get the fingers to express that.

When I run out of range I go into falsetto mode. Doesn't sound good, but that's not really what I'm trying to acheive, just bridging the gap between the mind and the fingers.

But then there are the complex and/or quick lines, like certain boppish chromatic enclosures that are just hard to sing. Some folks can actually sing what the play, some just kinda hear it in their heads. I don't think that those of us in the latter category are necessarily faking it if we're playing lines we're not able to sing accurately at tempo.

I think that it's just a matter of practice. The things that are hard to sing become easier, especially if you play the lines very slowly on your guitar while you sing... this allows you to check the accuracy of each note your voice produces. But I agree with you, singing is optional, and you can be "sincerely" improvising without doing it. In fact, I rarely sing when I improvise. What works best for me is listening to the sounds in my head, kind of like tuning to my personal radio. Problem is that sometimes there is nothing going on the radio, and this is when I have to resort to my bag of licks... which does not lead to optimal results of course.

**DaveF** · 08-27-2014, 05:38 AM

I admit to thinking in terms of basic chord forms "Am, Dm, E7, etc" as the changes go by, melody comes out by ear (stemming from visualizing shapes or little parts of licks strung together).

**henryrobinett** · 08-27-2014, 10:10 AM

Originally Posted by Professor Jones

This guy is singing what he hears. If he stops singing, how will that make his playing more bopish/less vanilla ? Seems to me that his problem is his lack of vocabulary. Maybe he didn't really listen and studied the great bop players, or not enough. Wouldn't that be the most effective way to fix his problem ?

Because he's playing only what he can sing. Playing an instrument is often playing beyond what one could ever sing. Rarely do you hear guys scat exactly what they're playing, if they're playing fast lines. Oscar, Jarrett, two very famous mumble singers when they're playing, just kind of go, blahh . . when they play fast.

Often when I sing as I play, it's either when I'm going slow enough or it's when I'm trying to slow myself down because I'm playing too fast all the time. Then I get into a melodic head space and sometimes continue the mumble singing when I pick up speed, but it's all a blahh . . .

Part of his problem is lack of vocab, but that's what we've worked on since the beginning, and he's been with me for well over a year. We've done a LOT of transcriptions, patterns, etc. THE PROBLEM is breaking him out of the automaticity of his comfort zone bad habit of singing everything rather than applying what he's studied. Similar with everybody.

**Boston Joe** · 10-06-2014, 11:39 AM

I've probably got a bit of all those things going on. For any given chord I've got a few "moves" for connecting it to the next chord. Each "move" is a different sound, but the exact sequence of notes depends on whatever I'm hearing at the moment.

**rpjazzguitar** · 12-29-2019, 06:14 PM

If I have fully internalized the sound and feel of the harmony, I don't think about anything technical. To the extent I'm thinking at all, it's about expression of emotion.

But, if I don't have the harmony internalized at that level, my approach is more based on specific scraps of technical knowledge.

I generally know the notes in the chords. First option is to focus on those and embellish by ear.

If I get hung up on some unfamiliar chord name (try A#maj7#9 for two beats at 180bpm), then I might think 1) scale or mode if I know one that fits 2) chord grip somewhere on the neck and pick notes from the visual picture of the grip 3) play the root (because it's gotta fit and it doesn't take any thought) and try to find another workable note by ear 4) worry about the overall flow of the harmony and gloss over the difficult chord. I doubt that any of that is going to sound great.

Another thing I do, and wish I could stop myself, is getting bored during a solo and thinking of some device. For example, suddenly deciding to throw in a practiced lick or play something a half step above the harmony or other trick. Invariably, that's when the solo heads south.

**wolflen** · 12-29-2019, 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by Nabil B

Say you're improvising on a tune you know well, and you're performing (not practicing). What description fits you the most ? I realize things are not that neatly categorized in real life, but hopefully everyone will be able to pick the description that fits them the most.

so the key phrase is "a tune you know WELL.." so I have played it many times..in several keys ..I know the chords and their inversions and some voice leading for them ..I have played it in several different ways..and in different positions on the neck..with several ways to solo on it

now on a tune i DON'T know well..the chords hopefully will outline the melody..or parts of it at least...I would go slow and try and find as many connecting notes between chords as possible If I am going to solo over the changes..if not..I would use some "Wes" octaves on some of the chord notes and some melody notes.

**pauln** · 12-30-2019, 12:12 AM

Those listed selections are neither exclusive nor complete, but that's OK; as some have mentioned, this is a difficult subject. Those four cover probably greater than 90% of the approaches heard on stage (and just the noodling of #3 may account for a majority of that).

My way is playing by ear, in a sound space of just the phenomenological aural perception of pitches, their harmonies, and rhythms. I don't think about key, note names, intervals, chords, or functions - no named things at all.

I am always thinking about how it is sounding out front, more specifically I'm thinking how the audience wants it to sound.

All my favorite recordings express a sense of the artists playing for me, somehow anticipating what I like... creating that personal feeling in my audience comprises all thinking and motivation for me while performing, improvising especially.

**Pycroft** · 01-07-2020, 02:48 AM

When I'm performing I'm thinking

1 - " I wish the piano player would lay out ."
2 - " I hope there are some girls in the audience who think I'm cool "
3 - " o yeah , this is a jazz gig there won't be any girls in the audience , just semi-autistic boys who will try and talk to me about Adam Neeley in the break when I want to go and get high ."

Life is tough .