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Jimmy now uses five positions for the major scale, called fingerings 2, 3, 5, 6, and 7 (based on the scale degree each pattern starts on). The sequence of fingerings is different depending on where you start on the neck. For C major, the first fingering is 5, then 6, 7, 2, and 3. For G, the sequence would be 7, 2, 3, 5, and 6. For Bb, 6, 7, 2, 3, and 5. And so on.
Originally Posted by surigaoslim
They really do help a player learn his way around the neck.
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07-22-2015 10:00 AM
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Correct.. Brunos method I found the best. Each position corresponds to a mode [ Myxolidian, dorian etc ] but its the understanding of the simple arpeggios of the modes from the actual scale and then connecting them with smaller scale fragments to embellish the harmony lines and then pick out simple melodies over the chord changes.. there are some sample clips on YT
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This is more or less my approach. I use 7 scale patterns. For me it makes more sense. 7 notes in the scale, 7 patterns. Each scale pattern is arpeggiated. Then I do progressions that incorporate all of these chords/arps as exercises to help facilitate comprehensive knowledge. At first there's no improv. Then I have the student locate the thirds and later the 7ths. Knowing the arps isn't good enough. Also first we learn the triads and do the progressions. Then the 7th arps and progressions. And add the enclosures. Then improvise but they're applied to tunes by then. Originally Posted by surigaoslim
Seems similar to me.
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Oh yeah, and I do the arpeggios in the full length of the scale pattern, then bring them down to playing them and visualizing them in 3 or 4 note groupings.
Last edited by henryrobinett; 07-22-2015 at 06:19 PM. Reason: clarity
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Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately???), there's no one method Andrew. Nor is there the 'right' method. Or anything along those lines. There's just different things that work for different people. It boils down to the type of improvisations you want to develop for yourself and the type of person and learner you are. Originally Posted by Drapte
The best answer is to record yourself listening, pinpoint the things that sound the worst to you, and attack them.
Things that, for me, are entirely integral to my own improvisation are:
-Being able to improvise over changes with ONLY the triad notes of the chord (in time and all over the neck if possible...if not, start in small positions and out of time, and slowly build your comfort level until you can do this at a ballad tempo, then increase the tempo faster and faster).
-Same thing but add the 7th to the triad..so 1-3-5-7...but improvising... not just running arpeggios. Try and make it sound musical.
-Knowing the diatonic scales of each section of the tune and being able to play scalar ideas (including arpeggios) through the form in time.
-Pick a rhythm (half notes, quarter notes, 8th notes, etc) and practice improvising through the form several times in a row without letting go of the rhythm). Half notes is a good starting point. It seems easy. But making it sound good for multiple choruses is surprisingly difficult. And will show you pretty quickly if you have any weakness in your knowledge of the tune and/or the fretboard.
-Same idea as previous one, but rather than a stagnant rhythm, use a simple 2-3 note motif...maintain it through the form and moving harmony.
-Learn the melody cold, all over the fretboard, in multiple octaves. Practice improvising off of the melody. Play it so many times that you just get bored and start to mess around with it. But always come back to it.
-As backwards as it may sound, practicing comping through a tune is also a great way to learn to improvise over it. Learning to see the harmony moving, and to make choices about how to get from one chord to another in an improvisational way, will only help us create more interesting single note lines. I generally try and do this for a good 20-30 minutes before attempting any of the other steps.
For me, if I can get through all 7 of these things and make music with each of them...then I can usually own a tune.
(I also like to do some serious analyzation of the harmony to figure out exactly what types of chords will properly harmonize the melody, and what implications that gives to me as an improvisor of note choices...both to shoot for AND to avoid...and I like to work on playing the tune as a chord melody and be able to improvise chords and soloing at the same time. But that's way more advanced stuff. It's essentially just putting everything else together.)
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I get back in town tonight and I'll get into more details etc... but this is a good thread, some great info....
The line cliche this is great practice for being able to imply harmony with melodic like lines... montunos are line cliche grooves.
I think I made a vid of comping for Spain that was all LC's. I'll repost below.
Personally Improv is just creating relationships and developing them, solos or comping...Live. If your using embellishment, ornamentation or Jordans Triad approach, etc... they can all be used for methods or approaches for improvisation... the basic point is... there are possibilities.... as to where the music may go... the performance is being created as you play.(and the ensemble).
As you become a more developed player you have more jazz language to create with. Your aware of more possible relationships and possible developments.
Here's the vid of Spain comping ideas... little boring, but some info...
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I see that c.e.s.h. lines and line cliches are the same. I know that it's used in My Funny Valentine, Michelle by the Beatles and tons of other tunes. Often with minor chords but major as well. It seems like an awfully elaborate term for a fairly simple concept. But that's cool. Up thread I asked a question concerning these lines being necessarily related to functional or non functional harmony. Destinytot gave a good and simple answer that it had more to do with duration than function. I can see that. But the question lingers. In my mind anyway. If a chord is static couldn't that imply at least temporary non function? And there can be functional and non functional harmonies in the same piece of music. Correct? The common 5-6-b7-6 figure in blues music would be a line cliche. Is that right? And I understand that some people feel that the chords in a 12 bar blues aren't completely functional because the I and IV chords can be dominant. Originally Posted by Reg
And then there's the question of the V moving to the IV before reaching the I. A deceptive cadence.
I hadn't thought about montunos, from the quoted post. I'm familiar with them but am I right in thinking that they are examples of non functioning chords?
A little off topic but I've recently become familiar with the term Pandiatonic. Sometimes called "white key music".
It seems to me that much new age piano music is guilty of abusing this concept. Slonimsky coined the term and plenty of serious musicians have included it in their musical practice. Can anyone think of any legitimate jazz players that have incorporated this into their music?Last edited by mrcee; 07-26-2015 at 04:12 PM.
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I'm gong over some Carol Kaye books / CDs and she mentions montuno rhythm. I didn't know what was. I can hear what she's doing and go, "O, yeah, that" but had no idea what the word meant. It is a good line cliché groove, though. Originally Posted by Reg
Loved your comping ideas for "Spain". Thanks for sharing that.
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So a line cliche or CESH or what ever ones uses to create harmonic movement can have function or not...it's really just depends on how you want to use it.... Maj/Min functional harmony is the vanilla and common version of guidelines for Function. It's just the motor for harmonic movement... guidelines or rules based on Ionian... Tonic, Sub Dominant and Dominant. Voicings and voice leading are just realizations of those Ionian modal guidelines... with the relative minor or Aeolian using the same guide lines and the added V7 chord from HM.
So you can also have Dominant like function... harmonic movement just using Characteristic pitches, or one of the tri tone notes, by using Modal functional guidelines.
You can obviously have combinations of chords... chord patterns, that can basically function like one chord, the chord pattern can become tonic, sub dominant or dominant . The simple example is the II V's or I VI II Vs, or the 1st four bars of Blues for Alice or other Bop tunes... F7 Bb7 / E-7b5 A7 / D-7 G7 / C-7 F7 /.
There are lots of examples where the Chord Patterns can be treated Macro or Micro. Macro. the chord pattern can be the tonal reference or target or Micro, each chord of the chord pattern can become a tonal reference or target.
The basic Function of what changes are has possibilities. So the common line cliche of 1, 7, b7 6 can have Function or not.
So if the LC is just, A- and a melodic line of A G# G F#... Could all be Tonic. I-, I-maj7, I-7, I-6... or
A-7 E7 A-7 D7 I- V7/I- I- IV7
so short answer... line cliches or montunos can have Function if what chords your playing or implying fall into Functional guidelines.
And if your only using Maj/Min functional guidelines ... it basically comes down to root motion.
And all this somewhat comes back to improvisation... when your soloing, how you create those relationships and then develop them... can also have functional implications over static harmony. On a different thread there was some discussion about improv approaches, one being I V or V I approach. Basically creating a tension resolve feel or shape when your soloing. Creating Dominant to Tonic feel or Function as motor to help create movement.
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Fine. Good. But lately I've been finding satisfaction playing certain lines with JUST THE TRIADS. and I've been thinking how wonderful that is. I've always been complex. But how refreshing and melodic it is to be embarrassingly basic.
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There's nothing about playing melodically or keeping things basic that warrants being described as 'embarrassing'. It's a sign of maturity, intention, thoughtfulness, and care when done musically and properly. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
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Yeah I agree. I've always had a sense of melody. But when I just pulled back and applied triads, basically beginning or ending of the phrase - solo- , it just helps to put the comma or period in place. Like I hear some horn players like Dexter do. Sometimes I think we guitar players get too enamored with all the silly advanced stuff we forget to balance it with the basic boundary lines, the basketball court. It works really well when you know when to pull it back in. Right? Going out is great. But coming back is an orgasm.
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Hello thank you,Unfortunately (or maybe fortunately???), there's no one method Andrew. Nor is there the 'right' method. Or anything along those lines. There's just different things that work for different people. It boils down to the type of improvisations you want to develop for yourself and the type of person and learner you are.
The best answer is to record yourself listening, pinpoint the things that sound the worst to you, and attack them.
Things that, for me, are entirely integral to my own improvisation are:
-Being able to improvise over changes with ONLY the triad notes of the chord (in time and all over the neck if possible...if not, start in small positions and out of time, and slowly build your comfort level until you can do this at a ballad tempo, then increase the tempo faster and faster).
-Same thing but add the 7th to the triad..so 1-3-5-7...but improvising... not just running arpeggios. Try and make it sound musical.
-Knowing the diatonic scales of each section of the tune and being able to play scalar ideas (including arpeggios) through the form in time.
-Pick a rhythm (half notes, quarter notes, 8th notes, etc) and practice improvising through the form several times in a row without letting go of the rhythm). Half notes is a good starting point. It seems easy. But making it sound good for multiple choruses is surprisingly difficult. And will show you pretty quickly if you have any weakness in your knowledge of the tune and/or the fretboard.
-Same idea as previous one, but rather than a stagnant rhythm, use a simple 2-3 note motif...maintain it through the form and moving harmony.
-Learn the melody cold, all over the fretboard, in multiple octaves. Practice improvising off of the melody. Play it so many times that you just get bored and start to mess around with it. But always come back to it.
-As backwards as it may sound, practicing comping through a tune is also a great way to learn to improvise over it. Learning to see the harmony moving, and to make choices about how to get from one chord to another in an improvisational way, will only help us create more interesting single note lines. I generally try and do this for a good 20-30 minutes before attempting any of the other steps.
For me, if I can get through all 7 of these things and make music with each of them...then I can usually own a tune.
(I also like to do some serious analyzation of the harmony to figure out exactly what types of chords will properly harmonize the melody, and what implications that gives to me as an improvisor of note choices...both to shoot for AND to avoid...and I like to work on playing the tune as a chord melody and be able to improvise chords and soloing at the same time. But that's way more advanced stuff. It's essentially just putting everything else together.)
I didn't see your post earlier because the thread has changed topic a little.
I am starting to really see this, one thing I don't quite understand is what people are calling the Jimmy Bruno method of learning a modular arpeggio.
e.g. Take C Major, learn Position 1 then with the C Major Arp, then position 2 with a D minor arp etc.
To me this seems quite limiting because you are only learning it in one position, would it not be more useful to learn the C major 7, D Minor 7 & G7 arps accompanying all 5 diatonic positions too. I feel like I'm missing part of what is being said about that.
I guess the thing for me is I'm really trying to understand how to be 'free' and the more I look into it the more I doubt there is a real answer for it. I understand superimposition plays a big role for a lot of players.
I'm thinking a good approach would be to split the guitar into 5 positions. Learn the diatonic scale in each position along with the accompanying pentatonic and blues, slotting the IMaj7 iim7 and V7 arpeggios in each position too. However this would then become a little bit of a hassle to visualize in Minor 2 5 1. Mainly because you would be thrown into harmonic minor on the V and even more stressfully you would have to visualize aeloian instead of dorian after learning to see dorian with the mi7 arps in each position. Maybe it won't be too hard though, I am keen to try it but don't want to overload myself.
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Hi Drapte
Im new to jazz [ I am from a country and blues backgound ] and I am struggling with jazz somewhat but the Bruno method teaches one to play the arpeggio modes in all 7 positions across the neck - with emphasis on doing this through ALL keys so as one practices the scales and key changes,..the entire harmony of the neck opens up. His method seems super methodical and practical imo - gets one thinking very wholistically and from a foundation - rather than learning specific lines,
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Okay cool, I have spent the past couple of hours making these.
Scales, with arpeggios and underlying pentatonics.Last edited by Drapte; 07-28-2015 at 05:04 AM.
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Hey Jordon... I didn't say using Triads was improv... I said they could be used... right. Anything can be used... how well it works is a different discussion.
The analogy of a BBall court is cool, but there are quite a few courts right... Might just use term Form for spatial organization, painted lines etc...
So is playing outside... off the court, but being aware of the time limits...what was the relationship between the tune and being outside. If I simply play the tune within the form and time and used a modal interchange harmonic organization to create different changes as my reference to improvise, am I improvising, anyway sorry I used your name. I'll make sure I don't again... triads have been around awhile, I was trying to make a simple point that what we use to improvise doesn't matter... the action of using, not the actual different concepts, as well as physical harmonic, melodic, rhythmic material... is what creates improvisation.
Different approaches have become common jazz practice for standard jazz tunes. But their not required, improv is not a notated tradition.
I tend to also believe the audience is part of the improvisation.... and that being able to play music you don't know or have internalized comes with time... and understandings.
When we improvise... there are different settings, home, with friends or other musicians etc... at gigs, recording. So the audiences come for different reasons, getting off track, sorry but this becomes somewhat important when we're talking about different approaches to improvisation... So sometimes the audience, the listeners, come for the music and sometimes they come for the performance, the performer.
If clubs or different venues already have a builtin audience... they are probably coming because they enjoy the music... the approaches to improve tend to be more jazz common practice. If you or the ensemble have a following etc... they, the audience like the music, but they also enjoy your approach to performing, your tunes, your approaches for performing standards etc... There are always exceptions... but we as performers should at least be aware of the differences.
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Hey Drapte... cool diagrams, so the use of pentatonic shape as organization for fretboard scales and arpeggios, is that how you see it. Or is 1st finger as basic reference when possible, obviously Maj and Mixo use 2nd.
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Anything can work. Sure. My point is simply that when I mentioned that as one of my practices, my personal intention when doing it is more about learning to see the big picture of the tune than about developing a specific language. I very well may use the triads at particular times...maybe to outline some rapidly changing chords...if that's the vibe I want to go for. But I personally choose to rarely play this way as it often times doesn't feel necessary or right for the aesthetic I prefer. Doesn't mean it's wrong to improvise that way though. When I practice this stuff, it's more like taking a Bach piece and doing a harmonic deconstruction...getting rid of the beautiful melodies, motives, and ideas and reducing the structure of the piece down to the triads and their inversions. It's just trying to see the architecture of the piece. For me, I have a hard time finding improvisational freedom within a tune if I haven't owned the architecture of the piece. This is one of the ways I find the harmonic architecture. Originally Posted by Reg
By all means...improvise using only the triads if you wish. I do sometimes. I just wanted to clarify that what I was talking about, while it can be used to actually improvise, was not intended as a recommendation to be used that way to the OP. Andrew seemed to be at a relatively early stage of learning to improvise and his question led me to believe that he was struggling to find a way to get inside the tune. I just wanted to clarify for his sake so that he didn't misinterpret my idea. I think it's a great practice for him or for anyone else. I just don't want anyone under the impression that I'm suggesting this exercise as the right way to improvise from my opinion. If they want to improvise that way that's cool...I'm just offering it as a tool to own the harmonic structure.
I tend to have very different views about playing out than a lot of other people. For me, the way to get to these levels, and the levels that I'm still working to achieving, is actually to dig deeper and deeper and deeper into playing IN. As backwards as that sounds to many people...I feel like the way out is not to run out of bounds, but to learn to have greater and greater control over the boundaries themselves. That's just my personal way. Other people want to throw the boundaries out altogether. That's cool. Just not my aesthetic preference. To me it seems impossible to get rid of the lines. Even saying "There are no lines and boundaries," is in-and-of-itself a new set of lines and boundaries. Originally Posted by Reg
I enjoy playing within the lines...and that can come off as 'in' and as 'out'. Depending on how I approach the lines on the court. The exercise of ONLY playing the triads through the tune (when I'm practicing) is sort of like getting on my hands and knees, pushing my nose against the lines on the ground beneath me, and crawling all around the court, tracing the lines with the tip of my nose. It's just about getting more intimate with the shape of things. Harmonically.
Once I can see the lines...then anything is possible. I can practice with my team, play against another team, play one-on-one, leave the court, stay on the court, sit down and watch others play, pull out my yoga mat or a hammock, close my eyes and run around in circles screaming at the top of my lungs, lay down at half court and take a nap, raise up a net and start playing tennis or some other sport...whatever. It can all be done on the court. But the freedom to do all of those different things for me only comes from owning the shape and nature of the court...and then being playful within it and honest with myself and others about what I want to do.
All that said...it certainly doesn't bother me one bit to have my name or ideas talked about. But again, given the nature of the OP, I wanted to make sure that I communicate my ideas as clearly as possible so they're not misunderstood. Verbal communication is hard enough regarding music. And even more so in an online format. As a musician and teacher, I feel like it's my responsibility that if I'm going to share an idea with someone who's struggling with something, that I do my best to make sure it's understood in the way I intended it. And while playing ONLY triads can be a way of improvising, it simply wasn't my intention to communicate that idea to Andrew, but rather to offer it as an exercise for developing a solid foundation on top of which he could develop his own language and ideas...whatever those may be for him.
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Hey Jordan, thanks for comments, I pretty much understand your position and most of your practice concepts etc... I like and appreciate them. Always interesting etc... keep them coming.
Hey mrcee... but of course, and that is another reason why i always preach fretboard awareness and the fingering etc...Don't be the one staring at your guitar... I tend to grab the audience first, then you have room to stretch them out a little, educate them as well as yourself...that balance takes awareness and then practice. But is not that difficult, if one tries.
So here is Drapte's original post...
He is talking about different very mechanical approaches to improvising. I'm taking it that he has an opinion of what improvising is.... and is simply looking for more approaches, of which there are many. Triads are cool, so are structures developed with 4ths. Generally the basic harmonic language of jazz is 7th chords, they are the basic reference.... triads are a different relationship, an organizational relationship which has many possible developments. Originally Posted by Drapte
My personal view is arpeggios are also like the basic starting point, you go through the process of learning them and then learn how to create relationships using the mechanical aspects of arpeggios and develop ideas.
I mean a machine could spell out chord tone arpeggios and mechanical patterns of them and sound OK, their very diatonic and are basically heard whether you play them or not... the common resolutions etc... again are stating the obvious common practice... stepping outside of that very basic box become much more interesting and generally requires more knowledge or practice. Stepping out of that box is not getting outside or pushing the envelope, but does require more knowledge of jazz harmony and common practice... these are what I see as different approaches for improvisation.
The mechanical aspects... are like training wheels to get you through the door in into a different room. The same notes used with different approaches can result in very different performances.
Use of standard note resolutions or movement... imply the basic harmony... so take those basic resolutions and use subs
and find different note movements that imply the new chords
A-7 D7 / Gmaj7 /
A-7 D7#9 / B-7 E7#9/
Cma9 Ab13/ B-11 Bb13 /
These are just basic diatonic and common tri tone subs, there are many more, and then you begin making subs of subs, and generally as long as you keep the original reference, A-7 D7 Gmal7 within perspective... the results are very natural sounding, especially if you keep the harmonic rhythm of the original close.Last edited by Reg; 07-27-2015 at 04:04 PM.
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I'm glad I'm not the only one who does that. I always feel a bit naughty when I do that in the B of Dinah. Originally Posted by Reg
I see functionality as kind of fractal or self similar, as it with form. So you have the big relationships (between A and B section say) and the smaller ones (I-IV etc) the low level ones (turnarounds and CESH) and then things on the momentary scale (chord tones/passing tones) etc. Which is similar to what Reg is saying?
Ultimately it's all movement - chords are just moments in the moment to moment flux of music. Some vertical densities might be, say, a minor seventh chord or even something undreamt even by Berklee's philosophy, and you might start out that way, but the aim is fluid, endless movement.
Anyway you have to start somewhere. Many people start with simple chords and layer on complexity. There's more than one way to develop this fluidity....Last edited by christianm77; 07-27-2015 at 07:08 PM.
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Jodan,
Thank-you for your explanation, it is quite liberating, I have spent the day thinking about what you have said and makes me rather happy for some reason. The knowledge that everyone approaches it differently beyond the basics is beautiful within itself and takes weight off my shoulders thinking that not everyone knows everything in some secret method.
Hey Reg, those diagrams I just made last night and am pondering on making a practice schedule based around that structure yes. As I mentioned earlier I am new to Jazz and am really trying to figure out the best way to approach it, I have been practicing the things you told me to earlier in the thread. Originally Posted by Reg
Thanks
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I know that this is an old thread, but.................................... Originally Posted by mwtzzz
This sort of thinking was the best thing to ever happen to me.
A pianist friend and I were talking about various ways to approach harmony and he suggested I study jazz history. (I was not yet playing jazz, but wanted to.)
What I found was that the development of the music was simple the development of the players themselves. They didn't jump in an play bebop and they COULDN'T have. They were simply stretching the already established competence they had using simpler musical language.
The problem I see now is that we have most musicians being taught to jump in at the end of the greats development, and even worse, to use an analytical tool (chord-scale theory) as a learning tool.
I now the whole chord tones vs. scales stuff gets beat to death, but a lot of why it doesn't make sense to the later group is because they are looking at it outside of jazz history. Nobody who knows how Joe Pass or Django played and thought asks questions like "what about the other 5/9 notes?" because they see them using them.
A great resource for this is to check out the book "Thinking in Jazz". Great history and musical examples of the development of the jazz idiom.
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I use "strong" and "weak" as well as "in" and "out" to try and understand and explain this idea. Originally Posted by docbop
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Originally Posted by larry graves
Originality is simply the art of hiding your sources.
Improv is not about originality. It is about expression, and just like we use other people's verbiage to express OUR ideas, we use other people's licks to do the same. Sooner or later we add, take away, ot change things to makke them more our own, but very little starts from scratch.
The idea of pulling something great out of nothing is simply a farce. Never happened. Ever. Happy accidents maybe, but those are really just mistakes that turned out well
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Good evening everyone.
So i have a couple of questions regarding improvisation that i wanted to get your views on, so that i can improve the time i spend in the woodshed everyday. They mainly pertain to how to go about playing through changes, how to maximize benefit from transcribing and how to develop my ears in regards to improvisation.
- In what ways do you practice scales/arpeggios for improvisation? Since i started going to school for jazz (somewhat of a beginner school, aiming to upgrade to a better school as i progress) i've learned from my teachers to practice my ii-V-I's (and other progressions) in different areas of the neck. Practicing only playing the arpeggios in different areas of the neck, practicing the chord scales in the same areas, practicing with chromatic approach notes from below, practicing on one string and practicing ascending and descending (playing ii ascending, V descending and so on). I am slowly starting to get more comfortable with this and i wondered about other ways to think of your harmonic practice so i can get more comfortable outlining the changes.
- How do i get the most benefit from the solos i learn? Right now i am transcribing solo to solo, and it has proven helpful in aiding me to pickup the articulation, phrasing and tone that goes into playing jazz. But i am uncertain how to get the most harmonic understanding out of my transcribing so i can play over changes more easily. Taking licks and forcing them into playing seems unnatural and like it is not going to come out as naturally as i want it to, and i'm uncertain of how to get harmonic concepts out of my transcribing. What do you guys do when it comes to learning solos and using them as an aid to improve your playing?
- How do you go about training your ears? I've started singing along to my scale/arpeggios practice, and i've started spending time learning to sing the solos i've transcribed. Should i keep doing this and/or do you have any other advice regarding ear training?
Sorry for the big questions. Just a young player eager and willing to learn, but somewhat lost with so much different information flying around.
Cheers,
Sickz.
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