Triad Superimposition

[bluewaterpig]

For those unfamiliar, this is a very powerful technique where you play a triad over a chord to create an otherwise unfamiliar sound. The usual rule is you use a triad that has one or two common tones in the chord scale, for example playing a D major over a CMaj7 - D=9th, F#=#11, A=13th (common sub over a IMaj7 to get a Lydian sound).

Besides the one mentioned above, the other that is very common is a major triad that starts on the 13th of a dom7 (ends up being the 13th, b9, and 3rd of the dom7).


What are some other very commonly used superimpositions?

[Dirk]

Here's a list:

http://www.jazzguitar.be/upper_structure_triads.html

[bluewaterpig]

Thanks for the list Dirk.


I'm interested in seeing what others use more in terms of actual super imposition though.

[marcwhy]

Or the Garzone approach -- any triad over anything (sort of): http://www.jodyjazz.com/george.garzo...ional.dvd.html

[also taught on guitar by Chris Crocco, who's on the DVD]

[bluewaterpig]

Or the Garzone approach -- any triad over anything (sort of): http://www.jodyjazz.com/george.garzo...ional.dvd.html

[also taught on guitar by Chris Crocco, who's on the DVD]

Thanks for the info. Do you own this DVD? Seems a little pricy, I'm wondering how worth it it would be for a somewhat simple approach. I'll check out Chris Crocco too.


I might be asking asking the wrong question here. I know there are some very common triad substitutions. The most common outside sounding one that I know of is using a major triad on a dom7 that's a m3 below the root. This is a pretty well known sub. I'm looking for other triad subs that are just as common.

[António Silva]

I like to use triads from the diminished scale (Half, Whole tone) as tension to release in the chord of resulotion. Example: The major triads G, Bb, Db or/and E as tension to go to CMajor.

http://ararur.bandcamp.com

[Nabil B]

I never used that approach in my playing. If I understand correctly, the goal when using triads is to have access to alterations and extensions. But if you know where the root of a particular arpeggio is, then you can easily find the b9, the 9 and the #9. And if you know where the 5th is, then you can easily find the #11, the b13 and the 13. That's how I do it and it seems less confusing. So what does playing in triads has to offer when you're already using a simple and direct approach to access extensions and alterations ? I'm genuinely curious about that, I'd like to understand what's so good about soloing with triads.

[Jeremy]

the other that is very common is a major triad that starts on the 13th of a dom7 (ends up being the 13th, b9, and 3rd of the dom7).

The most common outside sounding one that I know of is using a major triad on a dom7 that's a m3 below the root. This is a pretty well known sub. I'm looking for other triad subs that are just as common.

So I'm not really a jazzer yet and I don't have any formal theory training, but I try to read as much as possible to pick up on the language so I might be off here, but both of those quotes are referring to the same triad right?

Maj triad from 13th of C7 = A C# E

Maj triad, m3 below C7 = A C# E


Is that right? So its really the same thing, just different ways of thinking about it?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I never used that approach in my playing. If I understand correctly, the goal when using triads is to have access to alterations and extensions. But if you know where the root of a particular arpeggio is, then you can easily find the b9, the 9 and the #9. And if you know where the 5th is, then you can easily find the #11, the b13 and the 13. That's how I do it and it seems less confusing. So what does playing in triads has to offer when you're already using a simple and direct approach to access extensions and alterations ? I'm genuinely curious about that, I'd like to understand what's so good about soloing with triads.

Maybe it's to emphasize a "triad sound" in your solo, versus perhaps a more linear, scalar, sound. Playing around with triads in a solo seem to give it a certain sound -- clear, melodic. However, if you arrive at the same playing via a different thought process, I'd say six of one, half-dozen of the other.

[bluewaterpig]

I never used that approach in my playing. If I understand correctly, the goal when using triads is to have access to alterations and extensions. But if you know where the root of a particular arpeggio is, then you can easily find the b9, the 9 and the #9. And if you know where the 5th is, then you can easily find the #11, the b13 and the 13. That's how I do it and it seems less confusing. So what does playing in triads has to offer when you're already using a simple and direct approach to access extensions and alterations ? I'm genuinely curious about that, I'd like to understand what's so good about soloing with triads.

Its much much much more than just accessing upper extensions. The ear naturally recognizes a triad. When you have a triad superimposed over a given chord, it's almost like its existing in two dimensions at once...highlighting whatever tensions or chord tones it might have and also just existing as a triad by itself.

The major triad a m3 below a dom7 is a great example. It serves as the 13, b9, and 3rd which is a tense collection of extensions, yet by itself exists as a simple major triad. It's like a collection of ugly items that somehow looks beautiful when they're viewed together. It's absolutely one of my favorite sounds in all of jazz.

[bluewaterpig]

So I'm not really a jazzer yet and I don't have any formal theory training, but I try to read as much as possible to pick up on the language so I might be off here, but both of those quotes are referring to the same triad right?

Maj triad from 13th of C7 = A C# E

Maj triad, m3 below C7 = A C# E


Is that right? So its really the same thing, just different ways of thinking about it?

That's absolutely right.

[marcwhy]

Thanks for the info. Do you own this DVD? Seems a little pricy, I'm wondering how worth it it would be for a somewhat simple approach. I'll check out Chris Crocco too.

It's a 2-DVD set, and "worth" is a tricky term. How much is a lesson with George "worth?" For me, it's been worth it.

Also, George's approach is far from "simple." When cats like Joe Lovano and Mike Manieri say, "Wow, I really have to work on this," it is not easy.

I'm a fan of George's playing; he weaves in and out of beauty and complexity within a few measures. This is pretty cool:

[pkirk]

Its much much much more than just accessing upper extensions. The ear naturally recognizes a triad. When you have a triad superimposed over a given chord, it's almost like its existing in two dimensions at once...highlighting whatever tensions or chord tones it might have and also just existing as a triad by itself.

The major triad a m3 below a dom7 is a great example. It serves as the 13, b9, and 3rd which is a tense collection of extensions, yet by itself exists as a simple major triad. It's like a collection of ugly items that somehow looks beautiful when they're viewed together. It's absolutely one of my favorite sounds in all of jazz.

yep. the ear hears the obvious triad structure, and so it sounds "right" even if it is "wrong" by diatonic standards. Same reason diminished or whole tone scales can be used anywhere, although those can be a bit corny in a way that triads avoid. Another nice thing is that if you choose a certain sequence and rhythm, you can apply it to any triad pair, so that one idea becomes a bunch of ideas.

I practice this off and on, but the only ones I've managed to internalize and use smoothly are the one you mention (Cmaj and Dmaj triad over Cmaj7) and its minor counterpart (Cmi and Dmin triad over Cmi, i.e. 1 b3 5 and 9 11 6). THese are both pretty much "inside". I'll give your other example (major triads based on the root and 6th) a test drive when I practice next.

[RyanM]

Learn the modes in terms of the triads built off of each degree.

[count0]

Here is a pdf summarizing Garzone's technique...

http://www.jodyjazz.com/images/dvd/georgemaster.pdf

Personally, I find using pentatonics a clearer way to visualize (circle of 5ths) the notes of a scale, and gauge how far "out" I want to play...

If you add a note to a pentatonic scale, you get the equivalent of a pair of triads. It also lends itself well to playing lines with intervals of fourths and fifths.

[Gertrude Moser]

I'd recommend you check out Garrison Fewell. His books are just what you're looking for and then some. Do a search here, there's been several threads about them.

[bluewaterpig]

I'd recommend you check out Garrison Fewell. His books are just what you're looking for and then some. Do a search here, there's been several threads about them.

I have his books and studied with him at Berklee. The stuff in his books isn't superimposition.

Playing an Em7 over Cmaj7 isn't superimposition. It's just a convenient way to think of a Cmaj9.

[henryrobinett]

I used to work quite a bit on this stuff - not nearly to the extent of Garzone. Triads from the 5th, or minor triad half step up from a dominant, the 2nd above the chord, as has been mentioned, the 6th, major triad from the 3rd of a major chord gives the maj7 and #5, min triad from the 7th, min triad from the flat 6 . . .

[jtizzle]

Technically, there's about. 7 diatonic triads for every regular 7th chord. If you're thinking in major modes, then you can start a triad on any note of the scale and extend it diatonically. What triad you play gets you a different sound and will sound either more outside or inside the chord.
There's some really crazy systems out there for triads.
A simple one that works for comping as well as for playing lines is alternating i and ii triads on a minor chord. So on Dminor, you would be alternating Dmin and Emin triads, kind of like the common "so what" 4th chords you would be playing, but in triads. This implies the 1 3 5 and 2 4 6. You could also try different combinations of this, such as playing the min I triad, and a Maj b7 triad, which offers the 1 3 5 and b7 9 11.

On altered dominant chords, a really cool one is to alternate a major triad starting on the #11 and another on the #5/b13. This gives the #11 b7 b9 and #5 1 #9. So with this one you get all the altered notes, although you don't get the third. But again, experiment with the sounds you like. Try to configure a way to get all the notes you like in the triads.

The Kurt Rosenwinkel solo on How Deep Is The Ocean is a study in triad superimposition. You can learn a lot just from what he does in the first four bars (which is all just connecting triads over a minor ii-V).
A good book that gets into this stuff is the new Tim Miller/Mick Goodrick book, Creative Chordal Harmony.

I also realized while typing this up how little I know about this, so time to review for me as well!

[Gertrude Moser]

I have his books and studied with him at Berklee. The stuff in his books isn't superimposition.

Playing an Em7 over Cmaj7 isn't superimposition. It's just a convenient way to think of a Cmaj9.

Are you suggesting that one can only say "superimposition" if altered tones are used? There's only 12 notes man, things overlap. Playing a triad built on the root of the 3,5,7 is pretty much the same thing as playing a triad built on the root of the b9,#9,b5,#5. Different sounds, same concept. I often use Bm7 over Cmaj7 and I don't even think about the fact that I'm raising the f to f#.