Jazz "language" for guitar

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 07:54 AM

... that perhaps other instruments don't suffer. Let me try to explain what I mean: OK, suppose you play alto sax. You learn Bird's phrases, either by ear or omnibook. Chances are once you've figured out the lines, you're probably going to finger it the way Bird did, or any other alto player for that matter. Same goes for piano and several other instruments.

But on the guitar, as we all know, you learn a Parker phrase that doesn't lay easily on the guitar, chances are everyone else will finger it differently. And that's just the left hand.... Fluency and control over "language" is essential in order to produce it amidst free flowing improv. But even a carefully decoded Wes line may not feel natural for many players given the highly idiosyncratic nature of much of his playing. Same goes for Benson and many others.

So what's my point? Well, I'm noticing that I tend to naturally favor "language" that I have invented over that which has been borrowed, no matter how hard I've tried to assimilate such borrowed language. As such, I was wondering if any of you have any thoughts regarding this. Do you think as guitarists we have specific limitations when assimilating language that can't be made to lay under the fingers in a controllable way, the way our own lines do?

When I listen to Getz, Adderley, McLean, Donaldson, Thompson etc etc I can hear Bird lines played with identical articulation. Yet I have never heard Wes or Benson's articulation reproduced with the same conviction as the original. Infact, when I think of it, all the great guitar masters without exception developed their own "language". Not saying transcription is useless, as a starting point copying Charlie Christian did Wes no harm, just saying that there comes a time for some of us, perhaps, to find our own way, as Miles would say, "go down an empty street"....

**pierre richard** · 08-13-2013, 09:12 AM

I have always transposed a new tune to at least 5 other keys then what is written...

Play each one and see how the fingerings lay and how they sound different because of different fingering patterns and positions an the fingerboard...

Just the way I do it...

time on the instrument...

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 09:38 AM

Originally Posted by pierre richard

I have always transposed a new tune to at least 5 other keys then what is written...

Play each one and see how the fingerings lay and how they sound different because of different fingering patterns and positions an the fingerboard...

Just the way I do it...

time on the instrument...

Trust me, I find the best and most "playable" way I can to play anything, and all my patterns, devices etc are thoroughly worked through the 5 positions. Nonetheless, some of my fave Bird, Rollins, McLean and yes, Wes lines never come out like I "own" them. Sure, I can break them up into smaller usable chunks that I can and do use, but I'm talking about the long lines, the finger twisters that can never come out cleanly enough.

I'd just rather sound more convincing with my own lines. Still, I don't feel that learning other's lines has been a waste of time. On the contrary, that is precisely how I learned to "roll my own".... time on the instrument indeed...

dortmundjazzguitar · 08-13-2013, 09:50 AM

deleted

**Ozymandias** · 08-13-2013, 09:52 AM

(in response to the original post).

I think you have a point, although there are probably endless qualifications that need to be made with this sort of argument.

Most thoughtful guitarists with an interest in jazz must occasionally ponder the question of why guitar isn't (quite) a first tier jazz instrument. We guitarists have our heroes, but a list of say the 100 greatest jazz musicians as voted for by critics, knowledgable fans or musicians would contain at best a few guitarists and those who were included wouldn't tend to appear near the top of the list alongside Miles and Bird.

Meanwhile the guitar has been the dominant instrument in other types of popular and folk music over a period of decades, and the electric guitar arguably THE most important musical instrument of the second half of the twentieth century. And so many people take up the instrument. So why can't it punch its weight in jazz?

I think the fingering problem is one answer. In these other genres the stylistic character of the music is in part defined by fingerings that come naturally to guitarists. Folk players use "cowboy chords" and and capos. Rock and blues players developed ways of expressing themselves that used pentatonic and other scales that fell easily under the fingers. Songwriters using the guitar as a compositional instrument usually weren't technically outstanding players and wrote songs that were easy to play on guitars.

When it comes to jazz, guitarist face a different sort of challenge. The jazz language was not in the main developed by guitarists, and bebop, say, is often difficult to finger on the guitar. The sheer variety of possible fingerings makes an already difficult problem worse. We've all been there: which of these three fiendish fingering patters should I practice until I can play this lick to speed? How many rock guitarists buy the Omnibook, spend a few weeks on it, and then decide they'll settle for playing stuff a little less ambitious?

This gives the guitarist two options. Either find a way of playing jazz using fingerings that come reasonably easily or be determined to surmount the ergonomic limitations of the instrument, knowing that the fingering will sometimes highly awkward. The first option is compromising on the language of jazz, the second means you're not working with the grain of your chosen instrument. Neither is totally satisfactory and this must make it harder for the jazz guitarist to master the language of jazz.

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 10:36 AM

Originally Posted by dortmundjazzguitar

"Trust me, I find the best and most "playable" way I can to play anything, and all my patterns, devices etc are thoroughly worked through the 5 positions."

maybe that's the issue. the players you mention do not see the fretboard divided into different positions.

For sure, hence why said players are so idiosyncratic that it's difficult to emulate the articulation of their lines. Heck, even if I did learn the exact left and right hand way (including thumb!) that Wes played certain lines, they are simply not "native" to my system, and never will be. There was a guy who posted a note for note "copy" of a Wes solo. It was OK, but on the bandstand it just wouldn't connect with the listener the way Wes would have.

Maybe it's a more worthwhile pursuit to develop one's own style, even if the lines aren't quite as dazzling? Or maybe just a different kinda dazzle.....

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 10:41 AM

Originally Posted by Ozymandias

(in response to the original post).

I think you have a point, although there are probably endless qualifications that need to be made with this sort of argument.

Most thoughtful guitarists with an interest in jazz must occasionally ponder the question of why guitar isn't (quite) a first tier jazz instrument. We guitarists have our heroes, but a list of say the 100 greatest jazz musicians as voted for by critics, knowledgable fans or musicians would contain at best a few guitarists and those who were included wouldn't tend to appear near the top of the list alongside Miles and Bird.

Meanwhile the guitar has been the dominant instrument in other types of popular and folk music over a period of decades, and the electric guitar arguably THE most important musical instrument of the second half of the twentieth century. And so many people take up the instrument. So why can't it punch its weight in jazz?

I think the fingering problem is one answer. In these other genres the stylistic character of the music is in part defined by fingerings that come naturally to guitarists. Folk players use "cowboy chords" and and capos. Rock and blues players developed ways of expressing themselves that used pentatonic and other scales that fell easily under the fingers. Songwriters using the guitar as a compositional instrument usually weren't technically outstanding players and wrote songs that were easy to play on guitars.

When it comes to jazz, guitarist face a different sort of challenge. The jazz language was not in the main developed by guitarists, and bebop, say, is often difficult to finger on the guitar. The sheer variety of possible fingerings makes an already difficult problem worse. We've all been there: which of these three fiendish fingering patters should I practice until I can play this lick to speed? How many rock guitarists buy the Omnibook, spend a few weeks on it, and then decide they'll settle for playing stuff a little less ambitious?

This gives the guitarist two options. Either find a way of playing jazz using fingerings that come reasonably easily or be determined to surmount the ergonomic limitations of the instrument, knowing that the fingering will sometimes highly awkward. The first option is compromising on the language of jazz, the second means you're not working with the grain of your chosen instrument. Neither is totally satisfactory and this must make it harder for the jazz guitarist to master the language of jazz.

Agreed, and points well made. As aspiring Jazz guitarists, we got it tough! Not sure if non guitarists fully appreciate this, sheet, I'm not sure us guitarists even appreciate this!

Maybe we should cut ourselves a little more slack and learn to settle for a plateau - several octaves below Wesland !

**NSJ** · 08-13-2013, 11:00 AM

A piano player, classical or jazz, learns to play the piano. Playing the piano is playing the piano.

But playing the guitar is not simply playing the guitar. Very different approaches and techniques are required, depending on the type of music to be played. That is fundamental

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 11:24 AM

Originally Posted by NSJ

A piano player, classical or jazz, learns to play the piano. Playing the piano is playing the piano.

But playing the guitar is not simply playing the guitar. Very different approaches and techniques are required, depending on the type of music to be played. That is fundamental

Hell yeah. I'd love to hear from someone who has mastered jazz guitar as well as another instrument such as piano or sax. Sure, other instruments have their own mountains to conquer (try learning 12 different keys for anything on the piano!). But just from a technical standpoint, which instrument took longest to get the chops up? Which instrument is hardest to keep the chops up? And even - which is hardest to even warm up on? The synchronization required from both hands on the guitar is quite different to other instruments, making it harder, maybe, to be consistent from day to day?

OK, I maybe surmising here, but am happy to hear from those that may disagree.

**jasaco** · 08-13-2013, 11:57 AM

I'm laughing as I read this thread because my other instrument is pedal steel... talk about having too many places to play the same note!! Compared to that, playing guitar is MUCH easier. So quitcher bitchin' and get back to practicing!

**NSJ** · 08-13-2013, 12:21 PM

To me we must break out of positional playing, even if its absolutely necessary to learn initially.

2nd-left hand finger independence is a must--be prepared to play any given note with 1-2-3-or 4 at any given moment.

**docbop** · 08-13-2013, 12:39 PM

All instruments have multiple ways of fingering and technique approaches. Each instrument musicians what they play gets influenced by the instrument so Parker lines are going on lay better on a alto sax that a guitar. Like people say don't compose on your native instrument because you will tend to think in familiar patterns and not reach for a note you would if on another instrument. Also the capabilities of the instrument a horn can play long tones a guitar or piano can't we are limit (excluding pedals) on length of a note. Note attach is another difference. Reeds and brass are going to be able to articulate more like each other than percussive instrument like piano and guitar the way the instruments work.

**drobniuch** · 08-13-2013, 12:57 PM

In may opinion there are better instruments to play jazz then others...
Tell me guys... musician that play on what instruments write the best jazz books...
Many musicans that play different instrument then piano or sax learn from piano sax books and how many non guitarists learn from guitar books.. guitar is a fckd up instrument but i love it. I quit piano 10 years ago but still i can faster read from sheet music notation on piano then guitar thats frustrating and the others insument players dont know it and make fun.
Some says look but violin players can read fast but
1) they play in 1-2 positions
2) they tune in 5ths so there is less possibiltis to play (so no wondering what dirrection to go)
3) they evean got different fingerings for gb then #f
still i think guitar is easier then violin but becouse its so diffucult to quick read from sheet wee skip many writen down solos. My sax players friend did relly go for infinite solo transcriptions

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 01:30 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

To me we must break out of positional playing, even if its absolutely necessary to learn initially.

2nd-left hand finger independence is a must--be prepared to play any given note with 1-2-3-or 4 at any given moment.

I think you're right, but it's too late for me. I'm too far down the positional road. I have no trouble playing lines within a given position., but I have trained myself to shift positions from any string without any pick hand hesitation (still a work in progress), so if I'm going for an extension to an idea thats higher than the highest note in the position I'm in, then I have a couple of ways to shift into a higher position. I understand this precludes me from phrasing in certain ways that are open to the non-positional guys, but may I dare to declare that the reverse can also true?

What matters, surely, is what your own "system" is capable of producing- can it express your flow of ideas without too much restriction? I've invested too much time in the way I get around the fretboard to change now. I'd honestly sooner change over to P4 tuning, which I'd find easier to adapt to.

My problem is I listen almost exclusively to horn players (I know, I shoulda played horn then! ). Not all bad, I still pick up on rhythmic phrasing and accents I like and try to adapt somehow. If it ends up that I don't sound typically like most guitarists phrasing, then that might be a good thing, but yeah, sometimes I'll listen to, say, a young Sonny Rollins and just sigh.....

**NSJ** · 08-13-2013, 03:07 PM

Well I'm no expert but the technical goal to me is to not get lost on the neck -to play across the neck while simultaneously going up and down the neck. To go from one way to the other way seamlessly. A technical issue to solve, to break down playing across and playing up and down the neck until the two seemingly separate entities merge into an integrative whole.

**jasaco** · 08-13-2013, 03:15 PM

Nsj: +1

**docbop** · 08-13-2013, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

Well I'm no expert but the technical goal to me is to not get lost on the neck -to play across the neck while simultaneously going up and down the neck. To go from one way to the other way seamlessly. A technical issue to solve, to break down playing across and playing up and down the neck until the two seemingly separate entities merge into an integrative whole.

After seeing videos of Metheny and Sco I started noticing more playing whose phasing I like were play up and down more than across the neck. It really changed how I started playing it really helps with the timbre of lines not crossing strings so much.

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by NSJ

Well I'm no expert but the technical goal to me is to not get lost on the neck -to play across the neck while simultaneously going up and down the neck. To go from one way to the other way seamlessly. A technical issue to solve, to break down playing across and playing up and down the neck until the two seemingly separate entities merge into an integrative whole.

Even so, getting back to my initial point to al this, your way of moving around may still not be like , say, Wes' way, so trying to assimilate his lines may be as equally frustrating as it would to a mainly positional player. Moreover, even if you are quite advanced at linear traversing on the neck, there are some Cannonball Adderley lines, to make a point, you just ain't gonna make sound native to the guitar. A pianist has more chance. In fact, surely we've all noticed how sax, trumpet and piano have traditionally been able to borrow each other's language, sometimes in successive solos. Then Grant Green takes the spot light and sounds like, well, a guitarist....

Look, I know that some of you might think that a guitar should sound like a guitar, it is what it is, and I'm not saying going against the grain is the answer for us all. Just saying some of the language shared by other instruments seems more difficult for us to access. So why am I trying to play like something a tenor sax might play? Why don't I try to play something that a tenor sax guy might want to play, but finds too difficult?

I once went on a sax forum and asked if anyone transcribed guitarists. Not many, and those that did found the most exotic thing about guitar lines were the basic rock style licks! (double sigh...)

**princeplanet** · 08-13-2013, 04:26 PM

This whole up and down vs across debate is a whole 'nother thread (which I'm sure there are plenty of!), but I will say that the very best way I found to pay Bird's difficult (and fast!) lines was to actually minimize lateral movement on the neck, changing position when it facilitated the phrasing. Realizing this many years ago is probably the reason I chose to "see" the fretboard as 5 home bases for any given key of the moment, even when overlapping boundaries and playing in "hybrid" positions which is, of course, unavoidable at times (maybe only 20% of the time?).
Guitar technique is often about economy, left and right hand, and extensive, unnecessary movement of the left hand can slow you down, or lead to less secure phrasing, notwithstanding Wes, GB, Sco and Metheny. But I'm sure I'd think different if I learned that way, and yeah, I have noticed that the greatest players liked to move around a bit.

Yet I'm also sure there are great players hopping between 5 home bases with a bit of "in-betweening". Plenty of note choices at your fingertips there, it's down to imaginative use, as always....

**Agate** · 08-13-2013, 05:54 PM

Originally Posted by princeplanet

I once went on a sax forum and asked if anyone transcribed guitarists. Not many, and those that did found the most exotic thing about guitar lines were the basic rock style licks! (double sigh...)

Bahaha! I always wondered this myself. Great idea taking it to their forums.

Speaking of Metheny, I've heard him say he's often thinking trumpet lines when improvising
since that was his first love/instrument. I don't mind the guitar flavor that comes along when trying to replicate horn lines. I think of it as an accent that's charming in its own way. Like, if Desi Arnaz were to sing "How High the Moon"...

**mskalandunas** · 08-13-2013, 05:55 PM

A couple of weeks ago I was listening to a Julian Lage clinic where he mentioned how guitarists are always trying to sound like sax players/keys etc, and how there is also the option to sound like guitarists. I loved this statement, because I've always thought guitarists sound particularly contrived when trying to sound like horns, and especially when they use a really muted tone and are running bop licks. It definitely sounds jazzy, but man, it's stale at this point.

This led me to try and see the possibilities on the neck outside of normal arpeggios, and really bop-heavy runs. Big intervals, angular licks and other guitar-friendly lines can be really cool and very modern sounding, and it feels more correct than trying to run phrases in the way a sax player would.

If you want to check out any of his clinics, there's one at Anne Arundel Community College on youtube. It isn't theory heavy or anything like that, but he has some really great concepts to foster creativity, which is something that guitar seems to lack these days in the jazz world.

Here's the clinic:

**fep** · 08-14-2013, 09:50 AM

How well could Coltrane pull off a Joe Pass chord melody? Or Julian Lage's version of Autumn Leaves (below)? And why would a saxophonist even try to transpose those?

The guitar has a lot of advantages, play the guitar like it's a guitar.

**docbop** · 08-14-2013, 10:20 AM

This was posted in another thread here but thought it was fit in this topic too.

**cosmic gumbo** · 08-15-2013, 01:27 AM

At the time Charlie Christian died, he was musically so far advanced that Monk, Dizzy, and Bird acknowledged they were in his shadow...so much for the guitar....

**princeplanet** · 08-15-2013, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by cosmic gumbo

At the time Charlie Christian died, he was musically so far advanced that Monk, Dizzy, and Bird acknowledged they were in his shadow...so much for the guitar....

Maybe, but to be fair, they quickly caught up! Between 1939 and 1942 Parker (see rare recordings) advanced the language to the point where Charlie and every gtr player since had been left in the dust. By 1946 the world knew it, and we're still dealing with it....