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What works for me is learning lines. Internalizing them, getting them under your fingers. Eventually they get tweaked and twisted and part of your playing. I can quote many musicians who never thought of scales and modes and mention learning lines in their lesson products (Pat Martino, Carl Verheyen, Robert Conti, Clark Terry 'imitate, assimilate, innovate', etc). Every other genre does it this way, classical, gypsy jazz, blues, rock, etc. I know there is an improvisation component but it doesn't really matter. Learning lines is especially crucial for faster tempos where you don't have a lot of time to think.
When I learned shred/rock, etc I basically learned how to solo like Satriani, Yngwie, etc by learning their solos. In jazz because of key changes and academia we have created a whole new system which is really unnecessary. We can learn lines and see what the masters did to navigate the changes and follow similar methods.
In college I learned triads, modes, scales and arpeggios all over the neck with a metronome but I couldn't solo with that knowledge because a. you don't want to play scales/arpeggios for an entire solo and b. the keys changed so you'd have to practice scales in a way that connect them to nail the changes. Even connecting scales and arpeggios together over a standard is not very musical. So there's a whole other phase you have to go through to create lines from all this theory, dealing with phrase lengths, rhythms, chromatic notes, etc. Many people can't do this because they don't know the jazz language well enough when they try to learn jazz. And the fact that many of the greats existed before modes were invented tells me all I need to know.
I know people will disagree with this and that's fine. I am speaking from personal experience and I even studied jazz in college and was getting nowhere even with top marks. I usually avoid forum flame wars in favour of practicing jazz
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06-20-2013 02:34 PM
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Given my limited experience and knowledge I don't disagree at all with this and I don't think its wrong to pursue a rigorous program of scales and arpeggios. I think a well rounded player can probably do both. I also think about the fretboard when i am not playing. I have figured out where all the C notes are and from that its pretty easy to know where B and D are so I only have 4 more notes to go not counting sharps and flats.
Originally Posted by wkriski
What works for me is learning lines. Internalizing them, getting them under your fingers. Eventually they get tweaked and twisted and part of your playing. I can quote many musicians who never thought of scales and modes and mention learning lines in their lesson products (Pat Martino, Carl Verheyen, Robert Conti, Clark Terry 'imitate, assimilate, innovate', etc). Every other genre does it this way, classical, gypsy jazz, blues, rock, etc. I know there is an improvisation component but it doesn't really matter. Learning lines is especially crucial for faster tempos where you don't have a lot of time to think.
When I learned shred/rock, etc I basically learned how to solo like Satriani, Yngwie, etc by learning their solos. In jazz because of key changes and academia we have created a whole new system which is really unnecessary. We can learn lines and see what the masters did to navigate the changes and follow similar methods.
In college I learned triads, modes, scales and arpeggios all over the neck with a metronome but I couldn't solo with that knowledge because a. you don't want to play scales/arpeggios for an entire solo and b. the keys changed so you'd have to practice scales in a way that connect them to nail the changes. Even connecting scales and arpeggios together over a standard is not very musical. So there's a whole other phase you have to go through to create lines from all this theory, dealing with phrase lengths, rhythms, chromatic notes, etc. Many people can't do this because they don't know the jazz language well enough when they try to learn jazz. And the fact that many of the greats existed before modes were invented tells me all I need to know.
I know people will disagree with this and that's fine. I am speaking from personal experience and I even studied jazz in college and was getting nowhere even with top marks. I usually avoid forum flame wars in favour of practicing jazz
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Sorry, but to some extent I have to dissent from the gist of the opinions expressed here. First, one gets the impression that learning the fret board intimately is some type of impossible quest. Nonsense. Segovia's Major and Minor Diatonic scales in all keys. Play them as warm-up, watching the news, whatever. You will learn the notes and their relative positions on the fret board. The notion of trying to learn the fret board by charting out the location of all Cs on the neck is rather ludicrous to me. Works only if the only notes in the song are C. Even more stupid frankly is playing all twelve tones sequentially on one string. What is that memorable melody? Seriously, you need to learn the notes on the neck in a relational sense, and you need to learn where the chords and what they are in any position on the neck from the first position on up. How? Learn the scales well, and then harmonize them as chord fragments up and down the neck.
And here I venture into contested territory. Stop worrying about "what scale can I play over this chord" - the biggest nonsense question and fraud ever perpetrated in musical education. The answer is that you can play any damn note in the Western twelve tone scale if you know what you are doing, where you are coming from musically in a phrase and where you are going. It is all about what you hear and how you can make what you hear or would like to hear manifest musically.
The specific exercises you should work on are more like the following. Play Stardust in several different keys utilizing the entire fretboard up to around the 16th fret or so. Treat any song you are learning in that fashion. When you can do that, you will be well on your way to your objective. The more concrete songs that you learn, the more skilled you will become. It is that simple. But imo the only scales you will ever need are Segovia's diatonic major and minor scales. What about playing whole note half note scales or diminished scales? Show me one song that is just a scale. Just one song. The notes or interval relationships depend upon the song - the melody, bass, and the harmony. The issue is relational - how one note or cluster of notes relate to those preceding them and those that will come after.
And how do you learn to play Stardust in any key in any position? Find a version you like by a good guitarist, and try to sound as close as you can to that version. When you can do that pretty well, the battle is nearly won.
The fret board is not a jungle to me - it is a cool playground for my imagination and my ears. A wonderful place to be.Last edited by targuit; 06-20-2013 at 05:21 PM.
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Read a bit more carefully. I said learn every note, and be able to find each in all locations E.G. start with C. Originally Posted by targuit
This is not contested territory, at least at this forum.And here I venture into contested territory. Stop worrying about "what scale can I play over this chord" - the biggest nonsense question and fraud ever perpetrated in musical education. The answer is that you can play any damn note in the Western twelve tone scale if you know what you are doing, where you are coming from musically in a phrase and where you are going. It is all about what you hear and how you can make what you hear or would like to hear manifest musically.
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If I were going to start learning major and minor scales, it wouldn't be with Segovia. There are really only three one octave major scale patterns and they basically cover the neck so I would learn them in all keys. Bear in mind that, with practice, fret board knowledge will come but it takes time. So play a lot of tunes - they're way funner than scales.
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RyanM, Could you explain the Connecting Game from Joe Elliot's book, please?
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The forum's study group threads are here: Originally Posted by Derekdaman
https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ead-index.html
and the book is here:
An Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing BK/CD: Joe Elliott: 9780634009709: Amazon.com: Books
Basically pick a song or chord progression, and starting in the lowest position, just be able to run the arpeggios over each chord in eighth notes (or quarter notes or sixteenth notes). In other words, start at the lowest available chord tone in the position for the first chord, ascend through the arpeggio, and at the chord change, change to the next available note for the next chord, and so on. You do this in every position and then single strings, etc. and it will really improve your fretboard knowledge and ability to see the chord tones everywhere.
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Learning all the locations of one note can go beyond just the rote knowing of place.The notion of trying to learn the fret board by charting out the location of all Cs on the neck is rather ludicrous to me.
The same musical events are mirrored all over the fingerboard.
Octaves and unisons are perhaps the most important intervallic relationship on a string instrument to
unlock the physical logic by which these event repetitions occur.
There are many study paths to this structural awareness but this exercise addresses it directly at the most basic level.
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When you play Segovia's major scale in E starting on the open sixth bass string E note, your scales extend up to the high E at the twelfth fret of the first or high E string. That is three octaves right there without extending past the 12th fret. The point about using Segovia's version is that he suggests fingering which is quite valid utilizing patterns varying from imimim to ima ima playing the scale up an down the neck in each key. At the same time that you are learning the notes of virtually every fret and string combination, you are enhancing your fretting and plucking hand techniques.
The next critical step is to harmonize the notes of the scale utilizing simply the strings adjacent to the one your scale note is on. This practice process helps you dis-cover the chord fragments on the fret board in situ. It is the road to success if you wish to master the fret board. It works.
Ryan, I was responding a bit tongue in cheek about "finding the C notes", ie, without an emoticon.
My point was that the objective needs to be understanding the note in relation to other notes in the fret position on the neck. In playing a melody or phrase any one note is coming from somewhere and headed somewhere and it is that relation that is critical to learn.
I feel so strongly that this one notion of harmonizing the simple major and minor scales is the key to mastering the fret board. I trained for years in classical guitar from the age of eleven or twelve, and I've been playing nearly half a century (sigh...). Besides the virtue of helping a student learn to sight read notation, this process helps master the fret board quickly. You should also combine this practice with learning chord forms such as inversions and extensions (b5, #9, etc.) of any chord at any fret position. Between scales and chord study playing tunes in any position soon becomes intuitive.
To give a simple concrete example with a song that is familiar to almost everyone. Think about the opening melody line and harmonies of the holiday classic, The Christmas Song, in the key of C. The melody line corresponding to "Chest-nuts roasting on an o-pen fire...." Start with the first C chord in the first position with the bass note C on the fifth string and upper g-c-e fragment of "Chest- (c)". The melody then leaps up an octave to the "c" note on the first string 8th fret for the "...-nuts". Harmonize the next descending notes of the rest of the melody phrase "roast-ing on an o-pen fire", as you descend back down from the 7th fret back to the first position utilizing initially the upper three strings. Add in bass notes to the line, and Bingo! You are playing a real song.Last edited by targuit; 06-21-2013 at 03:56 AM.
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targuit. It's good that Segovia's scales worked for you and your students. They did not work for me. I took classical guitar for a number of years and "learned" the Segovia scales as well. My brain simply does not retain scales that run for 3 octaves and I never was able to see the fret board "like a piano" using them. For me, I need to take things in small chunks. When I take a scale over one octave then I can see it. I can use the same pattern up an octave and build a two octave scale that way. I can learn two patterns and build a two or three octave scale using those two patterns. I simply find it easier to look at the neck and see it as a bunch of one octave scales which are connected over the whole neck rather than seeing one scale that spans two or three octaves.
For me, I like to think in terms of three, one octave, patterns for major scales, minor scales and arpeggios. That gets me around the neck pretty well and keeps things compact enough for me to feel like I'm not lost. Different strokes...
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Different strokes. Of course. Not to forget that the ultimate objective is not to think much about it at all.
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Different people have different ideas of what improvisation is, and for some, having the facility to work from any interval, create a germ of an idea that can be developed and incorporated into an improvisational composition, that facility is aided greatly by knowledge of where each pitch is located given any tonal situation. Originally Posted by targuit
Is this stupid? Maybe to you.
Is is stupid for everyone? Maybe, but it's something I need in my own knowledge set. I would probably seem stupid to you.
I had the great pleasure to attend a concert of the Boston Childrens choir a while back. I was really impressed at the level of mastery these kids had. So I attended a rehearsal and I was amazed to see how much chromatic ear training they went through, just as a matter of warm up and background. Do they sound like that when they perform? Do they just do chromatic intervals? No, but it's there. It informs all tonality to have mastery of the spectrum of chromaticism.
I'll bet they could sing Stardust in a read through, and I'll bet they could sing, and enjoy Schoenberg with equal skill. These were kids, maybe stupid kids, but something about this knowledge allowed them to perceive compositional subtlety and possibility that another less comprehensive approach may have missed.
I need the tools and skills of an open minded composer when I'm improvising. I find any approach that embraces a broader vision helpful. For some, that extra effort is worth it.
In the end, it does depend a lot on what you hope to do with your knowledge once the guitar is in your hands.
David
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Truth Hertz, huh? Just jokin'.
I was merely expressing my opinion about the NOTION - not the person entertaining that notion - that learning where every G note on the fret board by a hunt and peck approach would somehow advance one's mastery of the fret board. Yes, indeed it does, but just one note at a time. Maybe would help you play Jobim's One Note Samba. Joking....
I felt that the NOTION was not helpful, not that the individual was unintelligent. I did suggest that learning diatonic major and minor scales would indeed teach you the exact location of every note on the fret board. Presumably the goal to work toward. If it's not your approach or choice, that is just fine by me. But nothing else was intended. Peace.
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I agree and I think in even smaller pieces tetrachords??? that way no matter where I am I can create a fingering or "see" the related intervals around that point. Originally Posted by ColinO
This is another thing I learned more from playing bass and being taught C major scale on one string, then two strings, and finally three. That really teaches scale theory, technique for shifting postions, creating fingerings. From that understanding with a scale formula you can create any scale and fingering on the fly.
Also on bass studying improv we did something like Joe Elliot's connecting game but we use a range of the neck like 2nd fret to 12th. So we had to connect ascending till we hit upper end of range, then reverse direction down to low end of range and reverse again. So covering that much fretboard, changing chords, changing keys there's no way a 3 octave scale would be of any use, you need to know how to create fingerings. This was very tough have to start at a snails pace but great education.
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If you're hunting and pecking for the notes then something's wrong, and that's the point; nothing will help your fretboard knowledge like knowing the notes instantly. In fact I got that exercise from a Julian Lage clinic. Originally Posted by targuit
Tell anyone to walk up to a piano and find all the F#'s and anyone can do it without thinking. Tell someone to do that on a guitar and there's a little more work involved... but that's what it means to see the guitar "piano-like".Last edited by RyanM; 06-21-2013 at 03:45 PM.
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I am always trying to find ways to simplify this.
I am practicing the following arpeggios:
Dm7: D F A C
G7: G B D F
CM7: C E G B
These all have something in common, you play every other note of a C scale.
So then I thought I could think of them as thirds, but some intervals are minor thirds and some are major.
In the end I decided that each one has a unique shape and the shape can of course change depending on which strings you play them on because of that pesky B string. I am not sure if using shapes is ultimately the right way to learn this but it is the only way working for me right now. If I learned the interval numbers better then i could see that working like this:
Dm7: 2 4 6 8
G7: 5 7 2 4
CM7: 1 3 5 7
The problem with learning patterns like this when you have to play something different you can't.
I know because I learned to play major scale patterns and thirds but then I could not the play the arpeggios without spending some time to learn them.
To do so you have to know where each note is on its own, I am still not there.
One thought I have is to print out a fret board diagram with the interval numbers as I practice to help burn it in to my brain and fingers. I thought at one time this would be a crutch but now I am thinking not.
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Oh yeah, I got that much. I'm not stupid you know Originally Posted by targuit
(well...depends on who the other driver is I guess)
Anyway, I agree, it's not a good life's goal to just be able to find any note at any time. I can't remember the last time a band leader stopped a solo, pointed to me and said "C# 4th string!" but I can remember the last time I was playing a phrase, and wanted to create a response to it in a different register, or answer it from a different degree on a different part of the fingerboard.
The goal in the OP question was regarding the task of getting to know the fingerboard. I believe that means getting to know where and how to best translate music to the physical task of the instrument. So within the piece there are tonal centres, and there are sounds that relate to those tonal centres. If you know the locations of all those centres, you have a freedom beyond the specified individual run from one to another (Segovia's own mapping of the scales)
I have found that there is a fascinating diversity of how guitarists relate to the fingerboard. And there is an amazing range of what a players hear when they are listening to the same piece of music. This also effects how you would recommend mastering the fretboard.
For me, yes I love the melody. I find it comes from knowing the relationship of notes to the tonic. I also love the harmony, and knowing where each chordal root is- it's kind of a necessity, especially when creating harmonic movement outside of the given changes.
The poor OP. If he wasn't confused when he asked the question, he certainly has reason to be now.
Welcome to the forum
David
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