Do you know what notes you play during an improvised jazz solo?

[jnbrown]

Some background: I grew up playing wind instruments, clarinet and sax. I learned to read music and play different scales so I know a little about music theory but not so much about chords.
On wind instruments I was of course playing one note at a time and I always knew exactly what note I was playing.

I often hear of great jazz musicians who did not read music such as Wes Montgomery and Errol Garner.
So I wonder what is going on their mind while they are playing. Do they know what notes and chords they are playing or is it more of a spatial and playing by ear thing where they know ahead of time if they move their fingers to a certain place they know ahead of time what it will sound like?

I have taken a few lessons online with a good jazz guitarist. I asked him if he knew what notes he was playing and he told me he thought more in terms of the note number within a key than the actual note. He also told me that he plays by muscle memory. I understand that if you practice something enough times you begin to memorize it, but there must be more to jazz than putting together memories, it has to be somewhat spontaneous.

So my question is what is your brain thinking when playing a note, a chord and sequences of notes and chords?

I have watched some instructional videos of good guitarists like Joe Pass and when they try to explain what they are playing they don't just say I just played chord x,y,z and notes a,b,c. They say let's see I started on this chord and I think I went to this chord and then threw in this sequence of notes.

Being a beginner something I struggle with is if I should understand what I am playing in terms of notes, chords, intervals or if I should just play without thinking about it.

[Guitarzen]

Unless a musician can be quoted directly as to what they thought or didn't think when playing, nobody has any business telling what they were thinking. For example nobody can tell you what Wes Montgomery was thinking, other than Wes. We can only speak for ourselves!

It's fair to say how jazz musicians approach jazz has evolved and changed much since the beginning days of jazz. There have been great jazz players who didn't have any formal music training, or read music. But we shouldn't assume that all of the early jazz players were like this. Since music theory and music reading have been taught for hundreds of years, it's reasonable to assume that there were also a fair share of trained musicians making jazz in the old days too.

For me personally I use every possible tool that I can. I use my ear. I use theory. I use muscle memory. Sometimes I just play something totally random! I can "hear" an idea in my head, and then play it. I use motifs. I use sequences. I use chord tones. I use the chord scale approach. I use chromaticism. I use arpeggios. I use substitution principles. I take a given melody and do variations on it. I think in phrases. Now I'm not saying I'm an expert at playing jazz or anywhere near as good as the masters. But I do the best I can with my abilities and knowledge! In my opinion, regardless of what the old jazz masters did, your still best off using every possible tool that is available today. Just keep learning everything you can. When a great jazz artist speaks about techniques he uses to make jazz, try to do the same thing! When another great jazz artist says he uses a completely different technique, perhaps even the opposite of what jazz artist no. 1 uses, well...use that too!! What kills creativity, IMO, is having an opinion that there is one correct way to do it.

Oh and one last thing -- I feel I get my best results when I don't think. But this only happens if you have laid down a strong foundation in the practice room, which requires much thinking and analysis. But when performing music, all of that has to be internalized and memorized to the point that you can play it all from muscle memory.

[jnbrown]

Guitarzen,

Thanks that is helpful. Being an engineer I am always thinking of the "right" way to do something, but in this case I guess there is no right way, just many ways. I remember hearing George Benson say that he takes things from different players and he mentions Tal Farlow. Then after that I when I listened to George Benson play I could hear Tal Farlow in there.

[jtizzle]

It's not a fact that they did not read at all. All of those cats could read to a certain degree. Not really well, but they knew their stuff. Also don't confuse reading with theory, they also knew that pretty well. Stan Getz is a nice example of this, he wasn't much of a theory buff, and when playing unfamiliar chords, he had much of a better ear for them than he had a head for coming up with a scale for it. One of my teachers told me that he was playing with Jim NcNeely sometime ago and he had all these weird voicings for some tunes he wrote, all Getz did was ask McNeely to play the chord and he would run a scale up and down. Wouldn't take him more than 5 seconds to figure out.

That was then, though. No one's gonna pick you up for a reading gig and sound out the chords for you, you're kind of expected to know stuff to a certain degree if music is gonna be sightread. Like coming up with a functioning scale when seeing a chord with all sorts of altered notes in it.

[mr. beaumont]

I'd hope none of the greats were thinking too much while playing, that's time for listening and reacting.

All the thinking gets done in the practice room, and there, whatever works, works.

Remember always that cats like Montgomery and Garner are not the norm, in their ability to play nor in their inability to read.

[Reg]

I'm a fairly advanced player, what ever that means. I'm a pro and have played, composed, arranged and recorded way too much music not to know what's going on.

I'm aware of complete harmonic references with every note I play. The difficult aspect... is see and hear many choices for almost every note I play. I'm constantly adjusting my reference for creating relationships.

I played Trombone through college... and I also approached playing in same manor.

This being said... This is almost an internal process, I can hear whatever I play, at least what I want to play. Sometimes technique gets in the way or the direction of interaction changes and the concept or application I was trying to develop heads in another direction.

Performance is different for different players. To play jazz... there is a lot to be aware of... or years of training your instincts and ears. I sight read well, well enough to be able to perform music as though I know the tune. That comes from being able to read well enough... but also, I'm aware of the music and it's history as well as the theory and harmonic concepts of jazz, not just traditional functional music.

The last time I checked... your brain doesn't come pre-loaded with default jazz playing abilities.

Reg

[henryrobinett]

Great question, and not an uncommon one. I think I'm maybe an advanced player. The whole question of what you do with your mind while playing is not insignificant. There are many ways to approach improvisation. Generally, I think, one needs an efficient method that won't bog you down with too much detail and significance, while still allowing you to PLAY with much detail and significance.

Knowing note names is important for reference and reading, but in the heat of improv knowing the names of all the notes does little to help you navigate through the water ways and flood waters of a tune.

I "think" of shapes more than anything. And to get to the point of visualizing shapes I first thought scale degrees, numbers, patterns of scales, modes, arpeggios, extensions, alterations, substitutions, avoid notes, enclosures, . . . I think people "think" visually. I say "think" in quotes because I don't believe THINKING has a lot to do with it after a point. In improv, any kind of improv, is about knowing your material and the PROCESS so well that you're just responding. And I do this visually and emotionally, as best I can.

To see or know you have a Bb7b9 chord going to E7+11 to EbMa7, and then to know it's Bb, D, F, AB, Cb is all too fantastically slow. You're not reading the improvisation. You want to KNOW all the note possibilities and each notes function and relationship the chord and perhaps to the dominant and tonic. It's actually not very important what the specific notes names are. You want to be able to see the skeleton outlines of each chord, mode, what have you.

The more things you have weighing you down the harder it is to fly. I think of THINKING as computation, figure-figure, assessing. You don't really want that, I don't believe, when attempting to fly. You want to simply know, create and respond. But in order to do that you have to have gone through the process of learning and thinking before you can abandon thinking, figure-figure.

I always practiced doing both: unrestrained, unfettered improv and another highly structured. They never really met in the middle for me. Learning a new song for example. As soon as I KNOW it I'm improvising on it and the thinking starts floating away.

[Reg]

Henry brings up a good point, (well a few), but the point I dig is... the one about getting weighted down.

What gets in your way of playing. (flying)

That might be one of the most important aspects of playing jazz. What keeps you from being able to play what you want or at least what you think you want to play.

If you decide to play chord tone "whole notes" through simple II V I, / D-7 / G7 /Cmaj7/ Cmaj7 /, at slow tempo.

Most can play what they want... at least most can think about what they want to play. Maybe be able to even get ahead a few bars and have a plan of what their going to play.

So maybe... chord tones, I hear A / G / E / C / A / B / C / C /... I know very vanilla etc... But I can easily hear those notes on top of each chord... I think most advanced players can. Maybe most players can.

If they can't ... what gets in the way.

If I notated the "whole note" line out... or your looking at changes, generally at this tempo and with whole notes, The sight reading aspect shouldn't get in the way.

The being able to hear the notes, on your guitar or how ever... probably isn't getting in the way.

So probably there are no mental blocks, and even if there were.... It wouldn't take most very long to be able use those basic chord tone notes as "whole Notes" and create lines mentally.

So now getting those notes on your guitar... same question, what gets in the way from you being able to play the lines you hear in your head to being realized on your instrument.

I would again think... most would be able to play those "Whole Notes" mental lines on their guitar... if not at first, with very little practice.

So Why are there no problems... and if there are what are the problems.

You either haven't beat the basic chord tones into your head enough for the memory process to work.

You don't understand whats going on musically. (in this example Chord tones)

You don't have the technical abilities.


For me personally, I don't get weighted down because I understand what I'm playing and I have the technical skills to realize what I hear. (not good or bad etc...)

This is the same process with more complicated music, for me it becomes more internal, I may not physically have the time to mechanically go through the thought process... but I still do.

I don't get weighted down by the music, I understand what's going on and developing. Generally in jazz there are many references... many choices of which relationships to develop. There all going on, it's just which ones I choose to use.

So my thought process becomes targets... and I trust myself to play between those targets as thought I physically made the choices.

We all have physical and mental limits. For me personally. not understanding the music becomes a weight. I can fake my way through just about anything, I have good ears. But that's it... I'm faking my way through.

Even though I may be playing what I choose... it can still suck.

Different musicians have different approaches to playing... but I personally made choices long ago and developed those choices. It works for me.

I believe you need to make your own choices, how to approach playing jazz. (or have someone help you make those choices)

Reg

[pierre richard]

Jerry Coker...."How To Improvise"..."How To Play Jazz"...

two very good books you should look into...

like others who responded...I too have gone my own way and play "my" style...

copied from others and used riffs and such..but altered them to be pleasing to my ears as well as listeners alike...

it's a long road and it takes time...

the bigger the island of knowledge the longer the shoreline...

time on the instrument..

[jnbrown]

Reg and Henry, thanks for in depth explanations.
I think this agrees with what my teacher told me, knowing notes are not as important as note number, intervals, etc.
Also that memory is involved.
As an engineer I have a tendency to over think and over analyze things and I need to let go of that some.
I also agree that I need to spend my time efficiently and not get bogged down in the details.
I think I have better understanding of the process and that it developes over time and I won't know execty what it is until I get there.

[henryrobinett]

Well good. Keep in mind though, in the beginning you do need to pay attention to the details. After awhile you can let other aspects take over. This is my experience anyway. A coarse example could be learning to drive a car. There are certain mechanics you have to learn, pay attention to and struggle with. After awhile you don't have to tell yourself to look in the review mirrors or how much pressure to exert on the gas or brake or where the brake is. You learn how to judge distance and how to center the car in the lane, back up, parallel park. You just do it. It's like walking. A toddler works very hard to control his arms and legs and walk without holding on or falling down. I think the process with jazz and improv is exactly the same. You have to allow yourself the process of learning before you allow yourself to not think about it. An adult doesn't have to think about which leg to start out walking with or how much energy to exert to move the legs and arms. You don't think about it. But you did in the beginning.

The developed player doesn't think about the notes or wonder how to play on a given chord sequence. But he DID at one time. He just plays, and very often, unless he has students, may forget there was ever a time he didn't know how to do this.

[jnbrown]

Henry,

Thanks again for your insight which is very helpful.
It puts my mind at ease and I can go forward knowing that with time, work and guidance I will progress.
BTW, I was on your web site and listened to you playing Giant Steps, reminded me a lot of Pat Metheny playing it and I think one of the better things he played.

[bobby d]

I know one thing Wes said is that he concentrated on playing with feeling throughout the whole song. I know most horn players were schooled to think of how many sharps or flats in each scale. I rarely think of that when improvising. I may experiment with the latest thing I've been working on, but I like Howard Roberts' idea of playing at the speed of thought. Joe Pass talks about the same thing. Hear the notes that you're reaching for before you play them. If you miss the note, improvise, but don't try to play fast until you play some interesting improv slower.

I believe it was Branford Marcellus that said playing Jazz brings together the "physical, mental, emotional and spiritual..." all at once. Maybe he got that from another Jazz musician in history like C. Parker, I'm not sure.

After a while you'll get a vocabulary of things to draw on and using your ear you'll go to new places.

[Nabil B]

I know most horn players were schooled to think of how many sharps or flats in each scale. I rarely think of that when improvising.

As guitarists we don't have to do that because we can visualize the arpeggios and shapes on the fingerboard. If we're playing on a Cm chord, we can locate the third without having to name it. Horn players can't do that so they have to memorize them. What chore, I'm glad I don't have to do that !

Back to topic : as said earlier, reading and theory are two different things. You can be an excellent sight reader without knowing any musical theory, and vice versa. I don't think you need to sight read to play jazz, unless you have to play a melody you don't know without the possibility to rehearse it, or if you want to be a studio musician. Theory on the other hand, is very important because we need it to understand and learn how to improvise. Sure, some people are able to play everything by ear without thinking, but how many of us fall in that category ? And for those who can, chances are they worked zillions of hours and did a great deal of thinking to attain that level of mastery.

[henryrobinett]

As guitarists we don't have to do that because we can visualize the arpeggios and shapes on the fingerboard. If we're playing on a Cm chord, we can locate the third without having to name it. Horn players can't do that so they have to memorize them. What chore, I'm glad I don't have to do that !

Yeah, but they still have it easier to a degree - at least sax players. Basically the 3rd is located the same place for only 12 keys. Given the octave key and alternate and false fingering, that's still a damn sight easier than guitar players who might have 4 different locations for the same note. Multiply THAT against the 12 notes, 12 keys, and then the various minor and synthetic scales and multiples of arpeggios and fingerings for the same things and you see why we come up trudging from behind so often.

And piano players have ONE OCTAVE that repeats up and down the keyboard. What a bunch of babies! LOL.

[pingu]

To see or know you have a Bb7b9 chord going to E7+11 to EbMa7, and then to know it's Bb, D, F, AB, Cb is all too fantastically slow. You're not reading the improvisation. You want to KNOW all the note possibilities and each notes function and relationship the chord and perhaps to the dominant and tonic. It's actually not very important what the specific notes names are. You want to be able to see the skeleton outlines of each chord, mode, what have you.

nice to hear that , thanks Henry

i had a discussion on here a while ago where most people were saying the note names were really crucial
(I don't think of note names when I'm improvising)

[mr. beaumont]

What do you think when you're practicing, though?

Nobody thinks when they're improvising...surefire way to shoot yourself in the foot.

[3625]

What do you think when you're practicing, though?

Nobody thinks when they're improvising...surefire way to shoot yourself in the foot.

Well on some level you're thinking, otherwise you'll slip up when lining up the right notes to play over the chord... wipeout!

[3625]

Someone asked Wes how much he practiced - he replied that he didn't practice, just that once in a while he opened up the guitarcase and threw in a piece of meat

[henryrobinett]

If you consider THINKING is figuring something out. LOOKING is what I think of. I LOOK at the changes, the fretboard, the shapes, but I don't THINK about it unless I'm learning some difficult head or crazy changes, or trying to memorize or working fingering.

[3625]

If you consider THINKING is figuring something out. LOOKING is what I think of. I LOOK at the changes, the fretboard, the shapes, but I don't THINK about it unless I'm learning some difficult head or crazy changes, or trying to memorize or working fingering.

I see your point - depends on how you define terms such as 'thinking' & 'looking'. You could use 'processing' etc. But when you're playing over changes, you are multi-tasking, and you are figuring lots of things out, even if you are a very experienced player and the 'figuring out' might be happening on a level which no longer feels like your immediate conciousness.

To the OP, I agree with your teacher, he sounds like he knows what he's talking about.

[mr. beaumont]

If you consider THINKING is figuring something out. LOOKING is what I think of. I LOOK at the changes, the fretboard, the shapes, but I don't THINK about it unless I'm learning some difficult head or crazy changes, or trying to memorize or working fingering.

I'd add to the looking that I'm hearing...but when I start thinking, well, that means I don't know the tune well enough yet.

So I guess I'm being stingy on my definition of thinking...but what I'm saying you can't do is "Okay, there's that part coming up...where's that melodic minor lick?"

And of course, that kind of thinking is just fine for practice.

[3625]

Keith Jarrett says that during a gig he makes "millions of tiny decisions" - good way of putting it.

[jnbrown]

I can relate to the comment about playing Sax and knowing the sharps and flats in every scale.
That is exactly how I was taught and I think has caused me some confusion playing guitar.
I now relailize knowing the absolute I am playing is not so important but knowing how it relates to other notes and chords is. This is something I never really experienced or was taught on Sax. Of course I will eventually learn all of the notes on the fretboard but that is not essential to playing jazz. I also think ear training is going to be really helpful. I can listen to Joe Pass or George Benson play a run of notes and I know what it sounds like but I can't yet translate that into a sequence of notes and intervals. I am not saying that I should imitate what somebody is playing but understand what it is.

[docbop]

I think its Barry Harris that points out... If you thinking you aren't listening and reacting there isn't that much time when playing.


Think about athletes they practice and practice so at game time they look and react based on what they practice. Improv is the same you practice and practice so on bandstand you can listen and react. The hard part is learning to trust/believe/faith you will react appropriately.