Maj7b5 Chords

**DMatthewsBand07** · 12-31-2008, 05:41 PM

I was just checking out Black Narcissus and its chock full of maj7b5 chords. Now is this just a sort of jazz unnecessary extension situation or is this something I should know how to use. I'm pretty sure it only says "b5" because there's a b5 in the melody. If this is the case then I could just improvise over it like a regular maj7 chord. So anyway... I just wanted to make sure I wasn't oversimplifying things. And - for curiosity's sake - how would I improvise over a maj7b5 chord if the necessity arose?

**m78w** · 12-31-2008, 06:06 PM

You would need to use the lydian mode, think Ionian with a raised 4th. A couple of tricks you can use are the minor pentatonic a half step down, so for Cmaj7#11 you can use B minor pentatonic. Or you can use two major triads a tone apart. So for Cmaj7#11 you can use C and D triads.

MW

**DMatthewsBand07** · 12-31-2008, 06:17 PM

Alright cool. That's sort of what I was wondering. Its kind of like the difference between 7#11 chords and 7b5 chords. How about that one? Is it cool to use Lydian Dominant over the 7b5? I figure if your playing with a guitar player it won't matter because he won't have enough fingers to play every note in the chord. But what about a piano player? Would Lydian Dominant work over 7b5 or Mixolydian (b6) over a 7#5?

**mr. beaumont** · 12-31-2008, 07:03 PM

sit down at a piano, here's the difference...

7b5 is R, 3, b5 ,b7

7#11 is R, 3, 5, b7, 9, #11

now granted you'll rarely play all of those notes in the voicing you choose...and rarely in order as well...that's just your theoretical answer.

lydian dominant (1, 2, 3, #4, 5, 6, b7) and mixo b6 (1, 2, 3, 4, 5, b6, b7)would both contain good notes for blowing over the two chords you mentioned. i might be inclined to not hang on that perfect 5th over either, esp. the G7#5, and normally, i like to see how another altered tone or so will work in there as well...whenever i see an altered dominant, i like to think of it as a suggestion and get away with whatever i can over it!

**John Curran** · 12-31-2008, 10:10 PM

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

...whenever i see an altered dominant, i like to think of it as a suggestion and get away with whatever i can over it!

Agreed. A suggestion or an excuse. I call it "going altered".

john

**jimmy** · 01-05-2009, 08:13 PM

.just flat the fifth if u dont like the sound lose it.if you use it end the phrase with a (13 flat 9). think big look at the whole chorus-- or bridge-- statement before you decide what to use.

**andypiano** · 01-07-2009, 08:25 PM

hi,
to get back to 'maj7b5' - i can't help thinking 'bad habits die hard' every time i see this chord symbol. maj7b5 supposes that the chord/scale contains a diminished 5th (as opposed to a perfect one) - and a perfect 4th.
imo it should rather be referred to as maj7#11 (as matt put it). even if you omit the 5th when voicing this chord type (quite common), the lydian mode containing the raised 4th/11th and the perfect 5th obviously fits best.
andy

**DMatthewsBand07** · 01-07-2009, 08:42 PM

that's sort of what I'm wondering. I'm definitely satisfied with the Lydian mode answer... that's sort of what I was going for - but I was wondering if there is a single scale that contains 1 3 b5 7 and the nat 4.

**m78w** · 01-07-2009, 08:53 PM

Try this one for 7b5

C D E F Gb A Bb

It's Bb harmonic major.

Or this one for maj7b5

C D E F Gb A B C

MW

**DMatthewsBand07** · 01-07-2009, 08:57 PM

is that maj7b5 scale just an altered major scale or does it have an actual fancy name?

**m78w** · 01-07-2009, 08:59 PM

nope just an altered major scale. You could call it Ionian b5.

MW

**andypiano** · 01-07-2009, 09:11 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

Or this one for maj7b5

C D E F Gb A B C

MW

hi matt,
ok - but i hear this one as a lydian scale with a chromatic passing tone between 3 and #11 and a skipped 6th - for me there's no b5...
sorry
andy

**andypiano** · 01-07-2009, 09:13 PM

sorry: i wanted to say: skipped 5th
andy

**jimmy** · 01-07-2009, 09:19 PM

this is actually a minor 6 9 cord form,,,, mickey baker jazz guitarbook 2 to for referance.

**m78w** · 01-07-2009, 09:31 PM

Yeah that scale isn't a great choice, it's the only maj7 I could think of that has an 11 and b5.

All the of ones I would use have the #11 and no natural 11.

MW

**andypiano** · 01-07-2009, 09:56 PM

imo this scale contains a b5 only in terms of theoretic scale construction - i'm not able to hear this as a b5 (but i don't want to get too german about it ;-)
in fact i like this f (as a passing-tone) - and when going up i'd tend to skip the (perfect) 5th, as otherwise this would make the #11 just another chromatic passing-tone to the 5th.
andy

**jimmy** · 01-07-2009, 10:27 PM

b f# E AND C ------A NICE CORD START ON 7TH FRET FIRST STRING--GOES GREAT WITH CMAJ7--CHUCK IN A DMAJ6 --THEN BMIN7 --THEN BFLAT MIN7-- THEN AMIN7 ARPEGGIO-- D AUG ARPEGGIO--C MAJ7 CORD THEN BACK TO THE (AMIN 6 9 )THE CORD WERE TALKING ABOUT BOY WHAT AN INTRO

**jimmy** · 01-07-2009, 10:44 PM

THE CORD IS A (AMIN-6-9) STARTING ON THE 7TH FRET IST STRING B F# E B -- USED GREAT AS AN INTRO SUCH AS --CMAJ7--AMIN-6 9--DMAJ6--BMIN7 --Bflat MIN7--AMIN7 ARPEGGIO--DAUG ARPEGGIO--CMAJ7 CORD-- AMIN6 9-- THUS THE INTRO

**JohnW400** · 01-07-2009, 11:53 PM

The Major 7 b5 is one of those multi purpose chords that work well for a bunch of sounds

CMaj7b5
F#Mi 11b5
Ami6/9
D13 (or Ab7 #5/b9)
B7b9 sus 4 (common early Real book chord)

Two scales that work great on this is the Kumoi pentatonic (C,E,F#,A,B) which is really an A major pentatonic with a lowered 3rd and a Cma7 alt5 ( C,E,F#,G#,B) Which is an E major pentatonic with a lowered 6th