Playing with swing

**javithompson** · 10-29-2008, 05:02 AM

Hi, I am looking for some advice.

I would like to work on rythm and swing (some would argue that this you have or you don't...). Any exercise that you guys tried that is good for improving these aspects?

I had a teacher who would always play with the metronome on the 2 and the 4, and I actually found it very good practice to improve swing.

Thanks

**Jake Hanlon** · 10-29-2008, 07:09 AM

it can. But the best way to really work on swing and develop it is to transcribe really swinging players and try and really get inside their playing.

The other "best way" is to get together with solid players and experiment with the beat in a swing feel. There are lots of ways to swing, and mimicing your favorite feels really helps out a lot.

For an excercize practice improvising with a metronome on 2 and 4 but all you are allowed to play are quarternotes. If you can start to make quarternotes swing then you've pretty much got it figured out.

**javithompson** · 10-29-2008, 10:42 AM

Great, thanks.
I've also heard that changing 4/4 standards into 3/4, and then try to apply those ideas again into 4/4, give new colours and concepts.

**derek** · 10-29-2008, 12:13 PM

I guess I totally disagree about the metronome. I do not believe a metronome will teach anyone how to swing, as part of swing is playing behind the beat a tad. Playing on the 2 and 4 is pretty standard jazz comping, and is great for internalizing timing, but it is straight time, not swing.

Playing on the bandstand is not metronomical, and time has a funny way of drifting. Tony DeCaprio wrote a brilliant article on this a few months ago in Just Jazz Guitar. Unless your drummer has a click track in his ear, time is going to be fluid. I am of the opinion that the metronome is a very valuable tool, but metronomical playing is stiff and does not swing.

I am curious to hear what others who play out think about this idea.

**Jake Hanlon** · 10-29-2008, 01:38 PM

swing is not about playing behind the beat, but yes it is a little. More so is that it's the illusion of playing behind the beat. Big Bands can swing behind and above the beat and that's typically the most swinging format. They swing so hard because of the constant pulse of quarternotes and how the phrases tend to drive towards the downbeat.

Swing is a form of articulation and you can swing on top, in the middle or behind. Examples..

Dextor Gordon played super straight 8th notes and put it all on the back end of the beat

Pat Martino plays super straight 8th notes and puts it on the top end of the beat.

Miles tended to put everything right in the center and then contrasted it with pushing or leaning back when he felt needed.

Laying back is a good thing. But say a bassist, if he lays back all his quarter notes then the band is going to drag. Most Bass players should push the time more so that the music has forward momentum, which is what swing is, the rhythmic propulsion of the music.

Fast tempo's can swing, but as you approach 280 on a metronome you cannot "swing" 8th notes anymore or else you will crash and burn... so how does it swing if swinging is laying back?

Anyway I'm not trying to discredit anything here, I'm just stating that laying back isn't what Swing is. It can be an aspect of Swing, but it's not the center of it.

The aspect of the Metronome is to instill a solid internal sense of where everything lays in a strict time sense and therefore, after developing that sense of accuracy it allows the player to have more freedom to change how he or she wants to manipulate the swing, be it even with the 8th notes or on top or falling back. If you cannot play with good time then you're sense of swing will not be truly realized until you can do so.

**derek** · 10-29-2008, 02:36 PM

Thanks Jake, that is a great explaination of swing. Frankly I haven't ever thought of swing being in front of the beat before, and will have to put on some Martino and listen for what you are saying. He plays such long passages of 8th notes, including across the bar, that I hadn't noticed before.

This view was the exact kind of thing I was hoping someone would chime in on. I agree that metronome (and other time keeping tools) practice helps each individual player internalize time. Jody Fisher encouraged me to have it on while I am getting ready in the morning to help internalize the pulse. By having that strong sense of time, a player is then able to manipulate it by swinging with their phrasing. Is this a fair interpretation of your explaination?

**m78w** · 10-29-2008, 03:00 PM

I've found that "swing" is more about the placement of accents than it is about the placement of the 8th notes. For example, listen to Martino, he swings are, but he plays everything as "straight" eighth notes. It's the accents that he uses that gives him a strong driving eighth note feel. Many other players are like this, Mike Stern is another great example.

What I find in younger or inexperienced students is that they read in some book that swing is playing eighth notes as if they were the first and last notes of a triplet. In my opinion this isn't swinging, it sounds pretty vanilla or hoaky. Instead playing the eighth notes more "straight" but with added accents and slurs to make things swing.

Just my opinion.

MW

**Sailor** · 10-29-2008, 04:56 PM

I wish you had a good example of hoaky and not hoaky. I'm afraid I'M the hoaky vanilla player and I don't want to be.

Sailor

**m78w** · 10-29-2008, 05:26 PM

Well, when I think of hoaky I always imagine the sound of horse clopping. That's the best example I can give.

MW

**fep** · 10-29-2008, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

For example, listen to Martino, he swings are,
MW

I think you meant;

he swings, arrrr (pirate voice)

**John Curran** · 10-29-2008, 07:16 PM

Originally Posted by derek

I guess I totally disagree about the metronome. I do not believe a metronome will teach anyone how to swing, as part of swing is playing behind the beat a tad. Playing on the 2 and 4 is pretty standard jazz comping, and is great for internalizing timing, but it is straight time, not swing.

Derek, I would agree that a metronome will not teach anyone to swing, however it will teach them to swing in time. As far as playing behind the beat, that may be o.k. for solo phrasing, but a jazz bass player spends 90% of his/her time in front of the beat. This is also true in most 4 to the bar comps for guitar players too.

Originally Posted by derek

Playing on the bandstand is not metronomical, and time has a funny way of drifting. Tony DeCaprio wrote a brilliant article on this a few months ago in Just Jazz Guitar. Unless your drummer has a click track in his ear, time is going to be fluid. I am of the opinion that the metronome is a very valuable tool, but metronomical playing is stiff and does not swing.

Personally i do not differentiate between metronomic time and swing time.
You can play to a click track and still swing.

The difference between swing and straight time is in the sub-division of 8th notes. !6th notes in jazz are normally played straight, and so are quarter notes. (Although it is common to play qtrs ahead of the beat which can impart a swing of its own). Berklee tried to 'teach' swing using John La Porta's Doo-dot system of 8th notes. If you think of 8th notes as doo-dot doo-dot etc, it helps to impart swing. La Porta referenced Lester Young's playing as a classic example of his concept.

in answer to the original posters point, the best way to learn to swing is to listen to it. lot's of it.

If you listen it will come...
You can only play as well as you listen....

john

**Tal Farlow** · 10-29-2008, 10:49 PM

Hmmm...

I am by no means an expert on swinging, but I can tell you that I have gone in 6 months from a guy who plays straight to a guy who swings. The things that fixed my issue were:

1. Transcribe and play along with guys who swing
2. Play in a band with people who swing

In fact when I stopped playing with a metronome is when I started to swing. I'm not saying a metronome isn't highly important, but it ain't gonna help you here. Feel the music, listen to what you play and most of all enjoy. The swing will come without you having to force it.

**m78w** · 10-29-2008, 10:58 PM

I think metronome's can be a great thing for beginning players. I've seen far too many students who tap their foot on two and four, but when they concentrate on their lines they move 2 and 4 with their foot to 1 and 3 without noticing. So the metromone helps them keep the time but also be able to focus on their lines at the same time when first learning.

I also like what was mentioned above about being able to swing with a click or metronome. I always tell my students that a metronome can't swing or teach you to swing, but if you can swing a metronome you're cookin!

When I was first learning a great bass player from Montreal Alex Walkington gave me one of the best lessons on time I've ever had. He had the metronome going and he started playing behind the beat, then on the beat, then ahead of the beat. He made that metronome swing so hard just by how well he was playing and where he put his quarter notes.

Time is a personal thing, everyone has a different perception of what Iings and what doesn't. It's always hard to define what swings and what doesn't as two people might hear the same solo and both have different perspectives on the level of swing.

MW

**derek** · 10-30-2008, 02:32 PM

Originally Posted by m78w

I think metronome's can be a great thing for beginning players. I've seen far too many students who tap their foot on two and four, but when they concentrate on their lines they move 2 and 4 with their foot to 1 and 3 without noticing. So the metromone helps them keep the time but also be able to focus on their lines at the same time when first learning.

I also like what was mentioned above about being able to swing with a click or metronome. I always tell my students that a metronome can't swing or teach you to swing, but if you can swing a metronome you're cookin!

When I was first learning a great bass player from Montreal Alex Walkington gave me one of the best lessons on time I've ever had. He had the metronome going and he started playing behind the beat, then on the beat, then ahead of the beat. He made that metronome swing so hard just by how well he was playing and where he put his quarter notes.

Time is a personal thing, everyone has a different perception of what Iings and what doesn't. It's always hard to define what swings and what doesn't as two people might hear the same solo and both have different perspectives on the level of swing.

MW

Sounds like a heck of a topic for your next jazzguitar.be lesson Matt. I would love to hear you take a metronome or other simple rhythm and demonstrate with imbeded vid or mp3 playing behing, on top and in front of the beat. Notation might be tricky, but clearly this is a pretty difficult topic to explain, and musical examples are highly required!

I know you are in the middle of a semester, so in your spare time of course.

**skei** · 10-30-2008, 03:58 PM

I just have to stir this pot a bit. I'm probably just destroying a very nurturing discussion, but my find, except for the extremely good advice one may always get here, is that Boplicity takes me for a swinging ride.
In fact, I hear lots of it in all miles tunes of that time. Later he left me in a haze, too advanced for my tiny mind. But Boplicity, the original from Birth of the cool, offers so much of playing with time, I love it. And get ideas every time I turn it on.

Hope it's not too far off the mark...
Peace
Skei

**javithompson** · 10-31-2008, 04:44 AM

Originally Posted by derek

Sounds like a heck of a topic for your next jazzguitar.be lesson Matt. I would love to hear you take a metronome or other simple rhythm and demonstrate with imbeded vid or mp3 playing behing, on top and in front of the beat. Notation might be tricky, but clearly this is a pretty difficult topic to explain, and musical examples are highly required!

I know you are in the middle of a semester, so in your spare time of course.

I agree. It would be great to hear an example of that, if you have time of course...

Anyway, very interesting quotes. Thanks again.

**Breezy** · 11-02-2008, 04:38 AM

Aceent the crap out of the up beats. Do it till it sounds silly....like stretching a rubber band way past its limits and then when you let go it rest just right.
Infuse yourself with this sound and eventually it has to come out of you in beautiful pulses. Not only the upbeats, but the synco parts too.
start slow....it'llsound dump....but give your hands as chance to see what you are up too. It'll work.
Your pull offs and hammers hitting the right accents will be gorgeous.
It is helping me getting of a stufpid sound I have.
Breezy

**P_Jay** · 12-19-2008, 05:12 AM

The original question concerned playing with rhythm. How's your wrist? Seems to me it starts with the body. A couple of metaphors spring to mind: re: Strumming (comping); 'flick the wrist like you're putting out a match', re: The pick (+ single notes); 'hold it like a nipple' (...). Refined as you will. My rhythm in playing single lines was v.poor until I got my wrist to feel light, weightless even. Fed up with grating cheese. Learn to play like the old greats I think. Django Reinhardt. Listen to the way Charlie Parker throws his notes. That double time break on A Night In Tunisia? Just kicks.

**fep** · 12-19-2008, 12:43 PM

Check this guy out and this concept. He sets the metronome in his mind to the last 16th note of 4 sixteenths. So it you think 1 e & ah, 2 e & ah etc. the metronome is playing the ah. He claims you can really feel the pocket this way.

Also check out his finger drumming videos, amazing stuff.

**merseybeat** · 12-21-2008, 03:08 PM

Hi Javi, actually hand on heart swing is my one and only strong points (played in a jump jive setup for 6 years). It is an illusion of sorts but its also a factor of a good right hand technique. Listen to the drums, thats the give away! Also and people here may laugh but learn the solo to rock around the clock (Bill Haley) its actually quite easy and yes, it swings like hell! Also I recommend Louis Jordon! Good time roll etc!

Try triplets, they work naturally with swing!

Keep it pentatonic till you get the feel and then move on to the more complex riffs!

Hope this helps Eddie