The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    This looks to be a continuation of the connecting exercise with the expansion of adding the option of substitutions.

    I read through the chapter and he talks about expanding your note options with added color tones. But he isn't real explicit on the exercises he wants us to do.

    Here is my interpretation:

    Continue to practice connecting game for situations #1 through #4 but now include the optional arpeggio substitutions listed on page 24 and 25.

    Practice working on a specific set of substitutions at a time. Once comfortable with that "mix and match" by playing all the available arpeggios from chapters 4 through 7; play them all in the same exercise.

    What do you think?

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  3. #2

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    Hi Fep,

    sounds great! I am still working on the connecting game in more situations. I have now moved to situations 5 and 6 but there is not so much new I feel. So yes, i am happy to try the substitution-connection game. I also had a great time toying around trying the rhythm variations (well, my time wasn't great, but you know what I mean :-)). Will post a video later today.

  4. #3

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    I read through the new chapter last night. Pretty straightforward material...your basic diatonic substitution concepts. This will bring in the 13th and 9th as nice extensions to our 7th arpeggios.

    However, it also makes it very important that we now take the time to completely internalize all 7 arpeggios contained within each Pattern. Before Chapter 7, it was possible to focus only on three of the 7 arpeggios: iim7, V7, and IMaj7 (for major keys), or iim7b5, V7, and im7 (for minor keys). Now, we have learned that can sub vi7 and iii7 for IMaj7, viim7b5 for V7, and IVMaj7 for iim7 (major keys); and bIIIMaj7 for im7, vdim7 for V7, and iim7b5 or bVIMaj7 for ivm7. In other words, for both major and minor, we need to know all 7 arpeggios contained within each scale, and how they can be used as substitutions for each other in various situations.

    So far, the book has us working with Pattern I and Pattern III for major, and Pattern II and Pattern IV for minor. That's 28 different arpeggios we have to have right at the tips of our fingers. There are some overlaps, yes, but my point is that - for me, at least - there is a lot of shedding to be done before this stuff gets automatic. I for one am not moving on to Chapter 8 (where the Melodic Minor scale is introduced) until I feel a lot more comfortable with the substitutions, and this is going to be a while.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff
    I for one am not moving on to Chapter 8 (where the Melodic Minor scale is introduced) until I feel a lot more comfortable with the substitutions, and this is going to be a while.
    I hear you Jeff and have given this same issue some thought.

    1 - My feeling is it would take me so long to get all these arpeggios in the connecting game up to a decent tempo (say 150bpm) that I might be stuck on chapters 5 and 6 for the rest of the year. On the other hand, I can understand the concept in less than an hour and can do the exercises real slowly in a couple of days. So, learning this is fairly quick, but there is also the long process of continuing to develop the technique/muscle memory, and ones ears.

    2 - We are not going to stop doing these exercises as we move on to subsequent chapters. We will be doing these exercises through the entire book, albeit we will be adding more and more to what we've already learned as we go. In addition, I think I'll be applying these exercises/concepts to my playing both right now and in the future.

    So, my approach is to move on before mastering the exercises. I believe I'll continue to get stronger at them with review, future practice and playing.

    With all that said, we of course can all go at the pace that we think best. For me, if I go too slow, I'm afraid I'll end up chasing some other pretty balloon that floats by (did I get that phrase right? I'm stealing your lick )

  6. #5

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    I agree with moving on. I believe each individual should set their own learning outcomes for this study, and mastery (for me) is a life-long fling.

    That said, my learning goal for this study is to internalize the material to the point where I am not likely to forget it with continued practice. I think I'm at this point with the 7 arpeggios for the patterns we've studied so far, and playing through the 4 situations.

    My life-long goal is to continue practicing this material daily toward mastery.

    Brian

  7. #6

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    I also agree. I do think that I need more time before I have all of those arpeggios down to the point that I don't have to think anymore and can do it at 150 bpm.

    Like Frank said, that would probably take the rest of the year and one tends to get bored. So doing those substitutions is definitely a good idea and it is very much in line with the material we have covered so far.

    In the past I have worked through many books too hastily with the net result that I remember next to nothing and have acquired very little skills. Elliots book is good in terms of drilling us to *really* get those basic things down (and are we the only people on the forum here that struggle to various extents with that?). Most other books just say "oh ya, practice all these arpeggios in all 12 keys and all over the fretboard" as a matter of a few pages of the book. One then obviously fails doing that in any decent amount of time and from there it goes south in my experience. So I really don't mind the drill and I feel that it helps me quite a bit improving.

    So I would be happy to spend some more time with the arpeggios and substitutions (it is not that I hadn't heard that before, but it hasn't gotten to my ears or my heart) before moving more seriously into melodic minor, ok?

    Enjoy practicing!

  8. #7

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    I was beginning to think I might be able to catch up (my copy of the book took its sweet time getting to me), but it looks like you guys are going through the book at a pace I can't follow. I'll just have to take things at my own pace from here, hopefully there is still some interest in the older threads as I plod along!

  9. #8

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    I think the expectation is that we will all continue to work the "older" material, even as we cover new ground.

    If we cover a chapter every two weeks, we'll get this thing "done" in a little over a year.

  10. #9

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    I started playing the Im7 arpeggios and then at 0:38 I started substituting the bIIImaj7 arpeggio over the Im7

    Situation #3

    | IImi7b5 / / / | V7 / / / | Imi7 / / / | / / / / ||

    In Fm

    | Gmi7b5 / / / | C7 / / / | Fmi7 / / / | / / / / ||

    mp3 backing track attached 5:18 minutes


  11. #10

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    Hey Team,

    As you know, I struggle a bit playing continuous 8th for any length of time. It's getting better with practice, but I'm still not pleased with my progress.

    Reflecting on this, I've come to realize that part of the issue is that I have a hard time visualizing in my mind "what comes next." My brain simply can't keep up. I can rip through the individual arpeggios, it's keeping the train rolling that kills me. Compounding this is the fact that the patterns have common fingerings for many of the arpeggios. Sure, less fingerings to learn the better, but this also means that the patterns have less autonomy. Boundaries are blurred.

    So, inspired by an earlier thread by gingerjazz, I decided to assign each fingering a color that made sense to me. Now, when I play through a situation, I follow along the swatches. It's pretty interesting. In fact, my 7 year old picked it up immediately; as I played Jeff's Sit. 1 Bossa backing track, he started calling out the colors through the changes.

    Anyway, I've attached my swatches for Major Pattern 1 and the swatches for Situation 1. I also attached Minor Pattern 2 so you can seen the fingerings the two pattern share.

    Brian

  12. #11

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    This is something that I pointed out early on in these threads: there are basically only 4 arp types (m7, m7b5, maj7, dom7), and you either play them with the "front" of your hand (starting on index finger) or the "back" (starting on the pinky). There is therefore quite a bit of duplication of "shapes" for different chord function.

    If you also recall, I started out by trying to learn each of the arp types in 5 different positions: front of hand or back of hand, starting on either the low E, the A or the D strings (seems like this leads to 6, but since one of the notes on the D is just an octave above the one you started with on the low E, it's really just 5). I abandoned that effort in trying to keep pace with the group (it was a lot of up-front effort, and it seemed like the lure of "only" having to deal with 2 shapes instead of 5 was a time saver). However, I was actually thinking about the whole thing today, and it isn't clear to me now that once we start into modulating key centers, that my initial method wasn't just as valid. Once you introduce modulations, every time the key center changes, you have to perform a bunch of mental gymnastics to figure out what shape you're in that matches where you are on the fretboard, and then discern what diatonic function the next chord you're going to play is related to the new key center.

    For example, "All of Me" initially goes: |Cmaj7 | % | E7 | % | A7 | ... So here you might start in Pattern 3 in the key of C (pinky on the 8th fret of the E string), and play a Imaj7 shape there (or perhaps a sub). Next you hit a nondiatonic chord (E7). I'm not yet sure how Elliot deals with this, but it seems logcial to think of it as the dom7 of A, so we might shift to the closest key of A (Pattern I, pinky on the 12 fret of the A string), and then start playing the V7 pattern contained there. Next up we have an A7...not diatonic to the key of A! Well, A7 is the V7 of D, so perhaps we go back to Pattern 3 in the key of D (pinky on the 10th fret of the E string), and again play the V7 shape there.

    It would be a heckuva lot easier to think of this instead of just "closest C...play maj7, then closest E, play dom7, then closest A, play dom7," wouldn't you think?

    Anyway, I'm sticking with this and I'm about to dive into the melodic minor stuff. <<<shiver>>>

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by FatJeff
    However, I was actually thinking about the whole thing today, and it isn't clear to me now that once we start into modulating key centers, that my initial method wasn't just as valid.
    Oh...I had never even considered that.

    Before this study, I learned the m7, m7b5, maj7, dom7 arpeggios starting with 6th and 5th string roots, so I'm thinking I would maybe just grab one of these in this "All of Me" situation....dunno. Chord scale?

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    This exercise is constant eighth notes over a iim7 V7 Imaj7, using arpeggios from the substitutions in the chapter.
    I was looking at your video and noticed that you have that "Benson" picking thing going.

    Looks like may end up owning it before all is said and done.

    Watch out, George!

  15. #14

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    This is the goal I set for myself before I move on from chapter 7, well this and Situation #4 which I still have to do.

    This has all of the six permiatations of substitutions and is in all five patterns moving up the neck. The challenge for me was not getting lost as I shift from pattern to pattern. This took some work.

    Last edited by fep; 06-18-2012 at 11:04 AM.

  16. #15

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    Here is my attempt at the substitutions following fep's lead.
    I have four cycles through the five positions. In the first cycle the regular arpeggios are played, in the second only the II-7 chord is substituted, in the third the Imaj7 and in the fourth both. I tried to do it all in one take but it wasn't gonna happen. So I discovered another "amazing technology breakthrough" in figuring out how to piece four videos together to one using iMovie (... really, it wasn't that hard but new for me).



    I guess I should do a few more situations in this way .... lots of work to be done!

    Enjoy your time on the instrument and best wishes from sunny Germany!
    Last edited by Frank67; 01-02-2013 at 03:22 AM.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by onetruevibe

    As you know, I struggle a bit playing continuous 8th for any length of time. It's getting better with practice, but I'm still not pleased with my progress.

    Reflecting on this, I've come to realize that part of the issue is that I have a hard time visualizing in my mind "what comes next."
    I have the same problem! It's a pain, but I figure I'm 'taking my medicine' and soon this will flow like anything else I've mastered. Although I don't enjoy the amount of time it's taken me to learn this, I am convinced beyond all doubt that I *need* to do this work because I *didn't* know how to connect arpeggios as well as I thought!

  18. #17

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    Franklearns, I listened to all the videos you posted today. That's a lot of work, and sounded good.

    Marderhordes, Franklearns, Onetruevibe, - I feel the same way, this is a lot of work. It's still quite a struggle for me. I sure would like to get this to a faster tempo, more work to be done.


  19. #18

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    Excellent work Frank!

    it really is hard work ... but to me it pays off more than anything else I had studied previously. I guess it really needs this kind of drill to properly sink in and become usable rather than theoretical knowledge.

    I am really happy that you initiated this study group and giving us feedback!

    My plan is to spend more time with the substitutions in other patterns and perhaps other keys and to slowly move towards the melodic minor studies. Unfortunately traveling will start again on tuesday but I'll always bring the book and a guitar with me.

    Keep up the good work and all the best from Germany,
    Frank

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    .Marderhordes, Franklearns, Onetruevibe, - I feel the same way, this is a lot of work. It's still quite a struggle for me. I sure would like to get this to a faster tempo, more work to be done.
    Fep, instead of typing out my whole handle here, just use Mark. (The handle is just my name, Mark Rhodes, with the middle initial, E, thrown in.) I volunteer at the library once a week and my supervisor--just for a laugh--calls me "Marker Hodes."

    I'm glad I'm not alone in thinking this is a lot of work, and I'm just starting on the minor arps with Pattern II! That's one benefit of this group. If I were doing this alone, I might think, "Crap, this ain't for me." But seeing it's tough for everyone makes me feel at home! A day at a time, a day at a time...
    Last edited by MarkRhodes; 11-21-2018 at 08:43 PM.

  21. #20

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    FEP. Upto chapter 10 but find that what with all the scales- positions covering the whole board that a lot of time is required which I havent got-but I do like Joe Elliots book and style of instruction and will be sometime before I can progress.And what with Reg's sticky I need 48 hour days!

  22. #21

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    I've been working on chapter 7 for a week or so now, and it's already starting to come along rather nicely! My warm up has consistently included all of the arpeggios for the pattern I was working on, so the diatonic substitutions haven't been too bad.

    I've been reading ahead on theory and worksheets as I work on this, so I'm aware of the upcoming options for the major and minor V7, and the minor IImi7(b5). Why don't we use the other chord family substitutions though? In particular, why don't we use substitute a VII for the V chord, or a IVmi7 for a minor scale IImi7(b5)?

  23. #22

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    I am among those not hurrying forward. In addition to learning all the arpeggios for the first four patterns (I and III major, II and IV minor) I've worked on *voicings* for them, so I can play them on the top four strings. (At least three of the notes on the top three strings; sometimes I need a root on the A string.) There are several possibilities, so I try to find voicings that work together, esp for the II-V-Is.

    For me, learning all seven arps in one position is foundational. This is something I'll take with me to the grave. It's a real, useful addition to my technique and grasp of the fretboard. I'm taking my time, though I understand those who prefer to move ahead while continuing with the earlier stuff. Whatever gets you good!

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzReggie
    I've been reading ahead on theory and worksheets as I work on this, so I'm aware of the upcoming options for the major and minor V7, and the minor IImi7(b5). Why don't we use the other chord family substitutions though? In particular, why don't we use substitute a VII for the V chord, or a IVmi7 for a minor scale IImi7(b5)?
    It is nice to know that you guys are still on board and of course everybody should take all the necessary time to work through the matherial. Let's hear your progess and approaches to learning and post some videos!

    For the substitutions - Elliot has not asked us to practice these particular substitutions at this point. I don't know why. Maybe to not overload us? But i have nevertheless done so. I don't think there is anything wrong with including these substitutions in your practice.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by FrankLearns
    It is nice to know that you guys are still on board and of course everybody should take all the necessary time to work through the matherial. Let's hear your progess and approaches to learning and post some videos!
    I'm not into video recording, but I could do some audio recording. I've been meaning to include more recording time into my practice, so that I can get the listener perspective, do some critical listening, mark progress, etc. This would be an opportunity to kick start that.

    Speaking of approaches to learning, when do you consider yourself ready to move on with the Elliot material? At some point in the book, he defines "reasonable success" as uninterrupted 8th notes at 60bpm, without mistakes, a few times through. I can typically achieve this fairly quickly, but I don't really feel done at that point - if I increase the tempo much, say to 80 or 90bpm, the wheels fall off in a hurry. With practice, I can push the tempo into the 100 to 120bpm range, which is satisfying, but it's very time consuming. I wonder if my time would be better spent moving on earlier, and relegate increasing tempos on past exercise to review or warm up?

    I suppose it's a matter of balance between learning the new concepts vs polishing them to the point that they're useful in a playing situation. There doesn't seem to be a "and now, bring everything up to a tempo that will be useful over a real tune" chapter, so it's on us to integrate this into our practice routines.

    Quote Originally Posted by FrankLearns
    For the substitutions - Elliot has not asked us to practice these particular substitutions at this point. I don't know why. Maybe to not overload us? But i have nevertheless done so. I don't think there is anything wrong with including these substitutions in your practice.
    I'm still not even sure that he's asking us to practice anything at all in chapter 7. In other chapters, he's quite explicit and clear in either the objective or chapter summary that we should be using the material in the connecting game. Was chapter 7 meant to be a theory chapter?

    Of course the extra practice won't hurt, but on the other hand you'll never reach your destination if you spend too much time at every stop. Besides, it sure would be nice to get to chapters 13, 14 and 15 where it looks like things get much more interesting!

  26. #25

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    I was getting overwhelmed with all the different possibilities so I made a quick chart to organize them. It's a combination of chapters 7, 9 and 12 and works for situations 1 through 4.

    In the beginning I usually spend 5 minutes on each and make a check mark in the box next to it. Once I've gotten a good grasp on it I'll usually reduce it to 3 minutes, or alternate between different substitutions.

    Hope it helps. Let me know if I missed anything.
    Last edited by Dana; 12-29-2012 at 05:19 PM.