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  1. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    This book would basically have straight Arps , like you're talking about basically, as a starting point. Later in the book, it's subs melodic minor Arps for all. Min/maj7 and maj7#5's.

    So, for half diminished, basically just chromatic lower neighbor. For altered , you're just getting a couple of altered tones. b9 #5 for one, and #5 and #9 for the other.

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    Cool, I'm sure it's perfectly fine as far as books go.

    Sounds like your usual chord/scale boilerplate. They're good sounds, and fretboard mapping based on arpeggios makes sense to me.

    To my mind interesting harmony is less important to the beginner than the ability to construct jazz lines, which is a separate discipline... Cos that's actually the hard part and the bit that often gets overlooked.

    But anyway, I'm not really interested in discussing this or any book, what's in it, or what's not. I don't care. I'm sure it's a perfectly acceptable book in that it may be useful for a short period in combination with other learning activities. There are FAR too many books on the market already for any of us to read or use, and if one has digested a large fraction of the educational materials out there for jazz guitar - well it's time better spent not looking for the ANSWER, but getting inside the music itself, which is where the answers actually are.

    I'm sure you know this.

    (For instance it was listening to and working out Charlie Parker and Bud Powell that sent me to Barry Harris, not the other way round.)

    And that is HEARTBREAKINGLY hard for the beginner... But the beginner (unless they have a great ear already) has to start with something simple that they can actually hear, not bebop or contemporary jazz. But the wannabe modern jazz player is normally attracted to the complexity of the music.

    I'm still working out the balance. Actually teaching jazz is HARD*, which is why so many jazz teachers teach harmony, fretboard mapping and licks instead - not that that stuff isn't important... But it's always a circling around the central issues.

    *but I have seen from Barry and Tristano - and perhaps Jordan/Stephon Harris too - that it is not impossible, as some very great musicians have said.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Cool, I'm sure it's perfectly fine as far as books go.

    Sounds like your usual chord/scale boilerplate. They're good sounds, and fretboard mapping based on arpeggios makes sense to me.

    To my mind interesting harmony is less important to the beginner than the ability to construct jazz lines, which is a separate discipline... Cos that's actually the hard part and the bit that often gets overlooked.

    But anyway, I'm not really interested in discussing this or any book, what's in it, or what's not. I don't care. I'm sure it's a perfectly acceptable book in that it may be useful for a short period in combination with other learning activities. There are FAR too many books on the market already for any of us to read or use, and if one has digested a large fraction of the educational materials out there for jazz guitar - well it's time better spent not looking for the ANSWER, but getting inside the music itself, which is where the answers actually are.

    I'm sure you know this.

    (For instance it was listening to and working out Charlie Parker and Bud Powell that sent me to Barry Harris, not the other way round.)

    And that is HEARTBREAKINGLY hard for the beginner... But the beginner (unless they have a great ear already) has to start with something simple that they can actually hear, not bebop or contemporary jazz. But the wannabe modern jazz player is normally attracted to the complexity of the music.

    I'm still working out the balance. Actually teaching jazz is HARD*, which is why so many jazz teachers teach theory, fretboard mapping and licks instead.

    *but I have seen from Barry and Tristano that it is not impossible, as many have said.
    As far as learning anything out of a book, this one would probably go in my top three that I ever actually learned much out of. It's got some valuable stuff in it, some specific and some more over arcing philosophical etc.

    I missed the study group here on the forum , but it seems to have gotten bogged down, once it got a little into the melodic minor part . So, ashtray, there's a lot of material which precedes that . as far as the melodic minor part goes , in my mind, this introductory method of looking at melodic minor witharpeggios , goes a good ways towards at least TOUCHING on the universal question in all of jazz for beginners: "How is it possible that you can play a dominant9 on just about anything?". :-)

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  4. #178

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    As far as learning anything out of a book, this one would probably go in my top three that I ever actually learned much out of. It's got some valuable stuff in it, some specific and some more over arcing philosophical etc.

    I missed the study group here on the forum , but it seems to have gotten bogged down, once it got a little into the melodic minor part . So, ashtray, there's a lot of material which precedes that . as far as the melodic minor part goes , in my mind, this introductory method of looking at melodic minor witharpeggios , goes a good ways towards at least TOUCHING on the universal question in all of jazz for beginners: "How is it possible that you can play a dominant9 on just about anything?". :-)

    Sent from my SM-J727P using Tapatalk
    This is a better way to learn that (first chord):


    If you can't hear that, you aren't ready to learn it or play it. And you'll be another theory driven player who plays that sound because you saw it in a book. That's of course why we transcribe, not to learn solos, but to learn sounds and how they are used linguistically in the music.

    I have no idea if Bill thought of this as a chord/scale at all... Who knows?

    It's the same thing, Bill Evans (and others) taught me the altered scale, specifically the b5 on dominant in the voice leading - not Aebersold or Levine.

    Of course I knew what it was. But I couldn't hear it. If you can't hear it, why learn it?

  5. #179

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Cool, I'm sure it's perfectly fine as far as books go.

    Sounds like your usual chord/scale boilerplate. They're good sounds, and fretboard mapping based on arpeggios makes sense to me.

    To my mind interesting harmony is less important to the beginner than the ability to construct jazz lines, which is a separate discipline... Cos that's actually the hard part and the bit that often gets overlooked.

    But anyway, I'm not really interested in discussing this or any book, what's in it, or what's not. I don't care. I'm sure it's a perfectly acceptable book in that it may be useful for a short period in combination with other learning activities. There are FAR too many books on the market already for any of us to read or use, and if one has digested a large fraction of the educational materials out there for jazz guitar - well it's time better spent not looking for the ANSWER, but getting inside the music itself, which is where the answers actually are.

    I'm sure you know this.

    (For instance it was listening to and working out Charlie Parker and Bud Powell that sent me to Barry Harris, not the other way round.)

    And that is HEARTBREAKINGLY hard for the beginner... But the beginner (unless they have a great ear already) has to start with something simple that they can actually hear, not bebop or contemporary jazz. But the wannabe modern jazz player is normally attracted to the complexity of the music.

    I'm still working out the balance. Actually teaching jazz is HARD*, which is why so many jazz teachers teach harmony, fretboard mapping and licks instead - not that that stuff isn't important... But it's always a circling around the central issues.

    *but I have seen from Barry and Tristano - and perhaps Jordan/Stephon Harris too - that it is not impossible, as some very great musicians have said.
    The meat of the book is writing your own lines and there is a lot of freedom in doing that. What one has listened to in general will sneak into the lines, they did for me.... Like, "hmm I just came up with a Charlie Parker line", that one "came somehow from Joe Pass".

    The book flows on an idea that takes minutes to understand followed by exercises that take a long time to get down. I'm also one that has never gotten so much out of a book, or lessons with an instructor for that matter.
    Last edited by fep; 06-16-2018 at 11:40 PM.

  6. #180

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    Hi friends, I bought this book by Alessio Menconi and I think is full of good advice and exercises to develop jazz phrasing.
    Jazz Guitar Lessons: The Secrets Of Improvisation And Harmony eBook: Alessio Menconi, Andrea Golembiewski: Amazon.it: Kindle Store

    Here a video:
    Last edited by superjazzer; 06-17-2018 at 11:17 AM.

  7. #181

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    Quote Originally Posted by superjazzer
    Hi friends, I bought this book by Alessio Menconi and I think is full of good advice and exercises to develop jazz phrasing.
    Jazz Guitar Lessons: The Secrets Of Improvisation And Harmony eBook: Alessio Menconi, Andrea Golembiewski: Amazon.it: Kindle Store

    Here a video:
    You are promoting your own book and disrupting a great conversation while you're at it.

    Mods can you please delete his post.

    Sent from my MYA-L11 using Tapatalk

  8. #182

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    The meat of the book is writing your own lines and there is a lot of freedom in doing that. What one has listened to in general will sneak into the lines, they did for me.... Like, "hmm I just came up with a Charlie Parker line", that one "came somehow from Joe Pass".

    The book flows on an idea that takes minutes to understand followed by exercises that take a long time to get down. I'm also one that has never gotten so much out of a book, or lessons with an instructor for that matter.
    That’s cool

  9. #183

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    just bought this book....met Barney once after a gig ..friend of mine said to him `do you like Stevie Wonder Barney said `No cant stand him.. she burst into tears..Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6-barney-jpg

  10. #184

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    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6-barney-2-jpg

  11. #185

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    You are promoting your own book and disrupting a great conversation while you're at it.

    Mods can you please delete his post.

    Sent from my MYA-L11 using Tapatalk
    Sorry but I'm a student of Alessio, is not my book :-)

  12. #186

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    a good book for beginning jazz guitar players is the holy bible. that way maybe they can find some comfort through the crippling frustration

  13. #187
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    This is a better way to learn that (first chord):


    If you can't hear that, you aren't ready to learn it or play it. And you'll be another theory driven player who plays that sound because you saw it in a book.
    Okay, but this is a book which outlines basic straightahead arpeggios. Later, further arpeggios to imply altered etc. basic harmonyand organization.

    I feel like statements like the one quoted above are almost attempting to answer an unspoken question like: "Is there a book which will teach you to play jazz without listening or transcribing etc?". Of course the answer is no, but that's beside the point. No one is asking that question.

    Basic arps are fundamental. Basic scales are as well. Everyone should know these basics in my opinion. Again, I think that the fact that they aren't a METHOD unto themselves is very much beside the point. I don't think there's anyone disagreeing with the idea that the BOOKS ALONE aren't the answer.

  14. #188

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    I think I just get a bit grumpy that I'm bored and people are blathering on about books I haven't read.

    Haven't they realised that they are here for my entertainment?

    That said, why do people never post examples of music they've checked out saying 'check out what Bill Evans does here?' - I could post that stuff I guess but the last few times I put that stuff up it kind of gets ignored except by a couple of people (such as yourself). People would rather talk about books and exercises than music.

  15. #189

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    i have enough books to keep me busy..certainly no exercise books . dont own any...i need the music..speaking of which..just heard Percy Graingers Brigg Fair for Tenor and Chorus on the radio...glad i had audacity at hand...to record....timelesss classic..

  16. #190

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    So my son got a beginning jazz bass book from MI. This prompted me to pull out Elliott's book again.

    Starting back at chapter 5. Stay tuned for a fantastic duo

    Actually it's more about having fun Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6-img20211010125910-jpg
    Last edited by Liarspoker; 10-12-2021 at 03:57 PM.

  17. #191

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    On to chapter 6 this evening.

    It's funny but I hadn't played the chapter 5 arpeggios for a long time but my fingers still remembered them.

    Unfortunately no music yet but I am starting to connect them with chromatic notes, scale tones and enclosures. Slowly but surely is the best way, right?

    Is anyone else coming along on the journey?

  18. #192

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    On to chapter 6 this evening.

    It's funny but I hadn't played the chapter 5 arpeggios for a long time but my fingers still remembered them.

    Unfortunately no music yet but I am starting to connect them with chromatic notes, scale tones and enclosures. Slowly but surely is the best way, right?

    Is anyone else coming along on the journey?
    You’re just headed into chapter 6 and are already using chromatics and enclosures?

    You are reading way ahead.

  19. #193

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    You’re just headed into chapter 6 and are already using chromatics and enclosures?

    You are reading way ahead.
    I was using Chord Tone Soloing by Joseph Alexander a little while ago and he says that as soon as you know the patterns you can connect them in these various ways.

    So I guess that I'm combining the two methods since I've mostly gone through this book before.

    As I said above I'm surprised by how much my fingers remember. I suspect this is the case for most of us who gave the book a good going over so I'd encourage all of those people to go through the book again

  20. #194

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    Quote Originally Posted by Liarspoker
    I was using Chord Tone Soloing by Joseph Alexander a little while ago and he says that as soon as you know the patterns you can connect them in these various ways.

    So I guess that I'm combining the two methods since I've mostly gone through this book before.

    As I said above I'm surprised by how much my fingers remember. I suspect this is the case for most of us who gave the book a good going over so I'd encourage all of those people to go through the book again
    Absolutely.

    While I think this book has a lot to offer I would not use it as a sole source with blinders on. There are a good number of familiar improv books that get right to target notes and approach notes. Fellow GIT man Don Mock's Target Notes book being but one example.

    In other words, when it comes to jazz improv a fair number of authors/educators indicate that there is no need to work through 23 chapters to get to chromatics and 24 chapters to get to targets.

  21. #195
    Direction change on the change = enclosure. Wish he had made it specific part of it. Kind of makes it honestly.

  22. #196

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    You don't have to go thru 23/24 chapters to get to targets or chromatics. I don't recall there being any rules when you start writing your licks (except consecutive eighth notes or triplets which I think comes from Howard Roberts SuperChops concept)


  23. #197

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    Well constant eighth note drills for improv go back to Mehegan and Coker, but that’s ok.

    And no you don't have to wait, but the book does have a serial approach for it's chapters. At the end of each chapter it lists what has been covered to that point, and it is always cumulative.

    Not to be too critical of Elliot's book, but if one wants to get right to the jazz language (including bebop oriented) there are some books that do that more directly and explicitly.
    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 10-15-2021 at 05:11 PM.

  24. #198

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    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    Direction change on the change = enclosure. Wish he had made it specific part of it. Kind of makes it honestly.
    sorry, “ direction change on the change” refers to what?

  25. #199

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    Quote Originally Posted by fep
    You don't have to go thru 23/24 chapters to get to targets or chromatics. I don't recall there being any rules when you start writing your licks (except consecutive eighth notes or triplets which I think comes from Howard Roberts SuperChops concept)

    Hey Fep, nice sounding lines!

  26. #200
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    sorry, “ direction change on the change” refers to what?
    resolving into the new arp via direction change.

    Instead of always resolving of ascending ii V in same direction:
    A C E G
    A C D F#
    G B D F#
    direction change = enclosure:
    A C E G
    F# A C D
    B D F#G