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  1. #1
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    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Pages 2 through 5 - Introduction and Chapter 1 - Getting Started

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 2 & 3 - Chapters 2 & 3 - Organizing Arpeggios

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6 - Chapters 4, 5 & 6 - Situation Playing and the Connecting Game

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 7 - Chapter 7 - Expanding Note Options with Added Color Tones

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 8, 9 & 10 - Chapter 8, 9, & 10 - Melodic Minor, Reference Sheets and Adding altered tones

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 11 - Chapter 11 - Connecting Game with the Altered Scale

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 12 - Chapter 12 - The Locrian #2 Scale

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 13, 14 & 15 - Chapter 13, 14, 15; Writing licks, Inserting Licks, Disguising Licks

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 16 & 17 - Chapter 16 & 17; Harmonizing the Melodic Minor Scale for Altered Dominants and mi7(b5) chords
    Last edited by fep; 01-20-2013 at 12:24 PM.

  2. #2
    Hello,I like the idea of arpeggios,and common chord proggresions that this book uses,but I think it would be much better if the book included standard notation or tab for the lazy person like me.I have learned awesome concepts of the bebop greats through various books and cds and it is always easier to learn this complex music if I don't have to tab it out.

  3. #3
    If any other newbie is as confused as I was about what book is actually being referred to, it is this one:

    http://www.amazon.com/Introduction-J.../dp/0634009702

    I had to read through 14 messages in the introductory thread before running across a link to it, although by then I'd finally figured out that I should just google the thread title, which I did, and got hit at amazon.com.

  4. #4
    Saw this blog post today that features Kurt Rosenwinkel talking about practicing pentatonics using a method similar to "connecting game." Though some of you would be interested. Made me think you could try some other ideas, such as melodic cells (1-2-3-5, 1-3-4-5, etc).

    The Music of Kurt Rosenwinkel: Pentatonics

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...tml#post218966 - Introduction and Chapter 1 - Getting Started

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...ers-2-3-a.html - Chapters 2 & 3 - Organizing Arpeggios

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...s-4-5-6-a.html - Chapters 4, 5 & 6 - Situation Playing and the Connecting Game

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...apter-7-a.html - Chapter 7 - Expanding Note Options with Added Color Tones

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...-8-9-10-a.html - Chapter 8, 9, & 10 - Melodic Minor, Reference Sheets and Adding altered tones

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...pter-11-a.html - Chapter 11 - Connecting Game with the Altered Scale

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 12 - Chapter 12 - The Locrian #2 Scale

    https://www.jazzguitar.be/forum/impro...3-14-15-a.html - Chapter 13, 14, 15; Writing licks, Inserting Licks, Disguising Licks
    Thanks for starting this Fep! I think that this is a GREAT book for converting blues/rockers. Mind you, it's not chock full of notated jazz patterns, but those can be obtained from countless other sources.

    Very practical, just great.

  6. #6
    Ordered the book today. Looking forward to getting stuck in.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by cooltouch View Post
    If any other newbie is as confused as I was about what book is actually being referred to, it is this one:

    An Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing BK/CD (Introduction to Book & CD): Joe Elliott: 9780634009709: Amazon.com: Books

    I had to read through 14 messages in the introductory thread before running across a link to it, although by then I'd finally figured out that I should just google the thread title, which I did, and got hit at amazon.com.
    thanks for not making me go through the whole thread!

  8. #8
    I think that this is a GREAT book for converting blues/rockers. Mind you, it's not chock full of notated jazz patterns, but those can be obtained from countless other sources.

  9. #9
    I heard about this book. I'm going to read it

  10. #10
    I'm just on page 7 (arpeggios) and wondering about his instructions to be strict about alternate picking. For example, consider this one, a screen grab from this nice web site: MajP1 - minP2 - jamb

    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index-screen-shot-2016-12-13-9-48-55-pm-png

    Does he mean that to play it like this:

    F down
    A up
    C down
    E up
    F down
    .....

    It feels very unnatural to me. I realize that may because I am just learning how to do it, but I'd like to check that this is really what's intended!

    Also, I came across this youtube video, I assume added by a helpful member of this forum:


    Looking around 1:08 at the first pattern 1 arpeggio, it looks very much to me as though he's sweeping the first few notes, which feels more comfortable to me.
    Last edited by rlyacht; 12-13-2016 at 11:04 PM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by rlyacht View Post
    Does he mean that to play it like this:

    F down
    A up
    C down
    E up
    F down
    .....

    It feels very unnatural to me. I realize that may because I am just learning how to do it, but I'd like to check that this is really what's intended!
    Yes. If you've never done anything with alternate picking that way, it may well be worth the effort. There are many players who consider it "the way".

    There are also others who never use it. There are others still who don't use it as much or usr a combination of techniques, but who still advocate it in the beginning as a fundamental technique reference.

    You'll get a wide variety of answers on this and none are necessarily wrong. I WOULD say that if many teachers encourage it in the beginning, like Elliot, it's certainly worth exploring. I found it very helpful personally.

  12. #12
    Thanks Matt, that's very helpful! I've been playing a long time, but not in a disciplined way. Doing this will require me to "unlearn" habits I've acquired over many years as a blues/rock player. But I can see that my way can be sloppy even if it is much faster than I can do with alternate picking.

    I'm up for trying it, and I just wanted to be sure I wasn't completely misunderstanding.

  13. #13
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    I took this book out again last night and again today.

    Part of it is like what I've been doing with "CAGED" fingerings lately---playing all 7 diatonic arpeggios of a major key from a single fingering.

    But now I'm going to play 'the connecting game' again and see how much better I can do it than I could the last time I tried, maybe two years ago now.
    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes View Post
    I took this book out again last night and again today.

    ...

    But now I'm going to play 'the connecting game' again and see how much better I can do it than I could the last time I tried, maybe two years ago now.
    I'm looking forward to that part - it seems like a great exercise for me. But I'm going to (try to) force myself to go through it linearly and even to give the alternate picking a shot first :-)

  15. #15

    Interesting

    Thanks for your helpful : o: smile-new:: redface-new:

  16. #16
    Can't really understand why the author didn't create arpeggio charts for all the patterns. Did anyone here do that?

  17. #17
    May I ask, how long did it take for you to remember the arpeggio patterns in one major scale pattern? I am having a hard time remembering the shapes. I can easily play the arpeggios through the major scale pattern, if I think about the chord tones. But then I am not really playing shapes, I am just using fretboard knowledge. If I move the shape just one fret down, or even two, I would have problems, as I don't know the chord tones.


    I see JustinGuitar.com says he used arpeggio patterns from just two major scale patterns for many years. I guess I kind of understand that. Two patterns = 14 arpeggio shapes for a major scale, and 14 for minor..

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    May I ask, how long did it take for you to remember the arpeggio patterns in one major scale pattern? I am having a hard time remembering the shapes. I can easily play the arpeggios through the major scale pattern, if I think about the chord tones. But then I am not really playing shapes, I am just using fretboard knowledge. If I move the shape just one fret down, or even two, I would have problems, as I don't know the chord tones.


    I see JustinGuitar.com says he used arpeggio patterns from just two major scale patterns for many years. I guess I kind of understand that. Two patterns = 14 arpeggio shapes for a major scale, and 14 for minor..
    I couldn't do it by shape very well, so, instead, I learned all 12 keys by chord tones.

    I found that it didn't work well enough at high speed, so I did drill some arp shapes which I built through muscle memory -- I still can't visualize the pattern. If I had to put dots on a grid, I'd have to think about the name of each note.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Can't really understand why the author didn't create arpeggio charts for all the patterns. Did anyone here do that?
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    May I ask, how long did it take for you to remember the arpeggio patterns in one major scale pattern? I am having a hard time remembering the shapes. I can easily play the arpeggios through the major scale pattern, if I think about the chord tones. But then I am not really playing shapes, I am just using fretboard knowledge. If I move the shape just one fret down, or even two, I would have problems, as I don't know the chord tones.


    I see JustinGuitar.com says he used arpeggio patterns from just two major scale patterns for many years. I guess I kind of understand that. Two patterns = 14 arpeggio shapes for a major scale, and 14 for minor..
    Honestly, it was working through this book which led me eventually to a different path. Eventually went with what Reg has laid out in the other thread in which he attached the PDFs.

    I personally think it's a better way than learning everything in one position at a time, the way it's laid out in the Joe Elliott book. Still do the connecting game type thing, but I do it with the way that Reg lays out. It's not single position . Very often it's working your way up or down the neck. It's actually pretty cool to start looking at things that way. When you get comfortable with it, you can cycle up the neck or down from moving through chord progressions . Really should be able to do it anywhere.

    It's a great method. I wish I'd found it 10 or 15 years ago honestly.

    Honestly, I think the Joe Elliott laid out the two positions he did in the book for this thread precisely BECAUSE they are the two easiest. They require the fewest decisions. You don't really have to shift or stretch anything. The other positions are where the real problems come and real work. Pushed me to a different methodology. I wanted something that made more sense than the front end. Umm.

  20. #20
    Is it explained somehwere? It’s not easy to understand from just some PDFs with tab. Is it a complete scale system, or?

  21. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Is it explained somehwere? It’s not easy to understand from just some PDFs with tab. Is it a complete scale system, or?
    You mean Reg or the Joe Elliott book?

  22. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher View Post
    You mean Reg or the Joe Elliott book?
    Reg, if it is that much easier. I need to commit to a good jazz system that will help me be able to learn arpeggio and scale shapes. And it should be good for future stuff, and work good in other genres as well. For example if I feel bluesy one day.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Reg, if it is that much easier. I need to commit to a good jazz system that will help me be able to learn arpeggio and scale shapes. And it should be good for future stuff, and work good in other genres as well. For example if I feel bluesy one day.
    I'm not Reg obviously but will add a note here.

    Scales and arpeggios on the guitar are just a technical foundation for playing music. You can used CAGED, or "CAGED plus*" or 3NPS or Leavitt (Reg uses 7 fingerings that are a subset of Leavitt's 12). You can utilize 7-8 one octave arpeggios which can be linked together for two octave arpeggios like I mentioned, or use a few more as a result of leveraging 3NPS or Leaviit. No big whoop, conceptually speaking anyway. Just some work.

    When it comes to Jazz soloing however, you will need to learn and practice "The Jazz Language" or "Jazz Vocabulary", and you will need to work very long and hard on it. Scales and arpeggios are part of the foundation for that, but not the building and not the penthouse.

    There are many methods and approaches for learning the jazz language, the obvious time tested one being to play transcribed solos. If you want one book to really give you an invaluable insight into this, check out Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony by Bert Ligon. Chapter 10 in particular will open your eyes, ears and mind into the reality of the difference between running scales and arpeggios and playing effective jazz solos.

    You need to have the facility to do both, and they overlap, but they are not one and the same.


    * meaning, CAGED plus a few favorite fingerings from 3NPS or Leavitt.

  24. #24

    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index

    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    I'm not Reg obviously but will add a note here.

    Scales and arpeggios on the guitar are just a technical foundation for playing music. You can used CAGED, or "CAGED plus*" or 3NPS or Leavitt (Reg uses 7 fingerings that are a subset of Leavitt's 12). You can utilize 7-8 one octave arpeggios which can be linked together for two octave arpeggios like I mentioned, or use a few more as a result of leveraging 3NPS or Leaviit. No big whoop, conceptually speaking anyway. Just some work.

    When it comes to Jazz soloing however, you will need to learn and practice "The Jazz Language" or "Jazz Vocabulary", and you will need to work very long and hard on it. Scales and arpeggios are part of the foundation for that, but not the building and not the penthouse.

    There are many methods and approaches for learning the jazz language, the obvious time tested one being to play transcribed solos. If you want one book to really give you an invaluable insight into this, check out Connecting Chords with Linear Harmony by Bert Ligon. Chapter 10 in particular will open your eyes, ears and mind into the reality of the difference between running scales and arpeggios and playing effective jazz solos.

    You need to have the facility to do both, and they overlap, but they are not one and the same.


    * meaning, CAGED plus a few favorite fingerings from 3NPS or Leavitt.
    Thank you for this. I really value tips on sounding like a jazz player. I just had a jam with friends, were we played autumn leaves. One thing I felt when I played myself, even though it was “the correct notes”, was that it wasn’t jazzy enough. If it were played on a trumpet, it would’ve though, cause I think I am affected by Miles Davis. However, I don’t feel like a jazz guitar player, so suggestions one how I can get better at that, is much appreciated. I am practicing like a maniac every day :-)

    Suggestion on good guitarists I can transcribe? Right now I am doing bye bye blackbird. Don’t know what’s next, as my teacher decide. For autumn leaves, I transcribed Miles Davis.

  25. #25
    Well if you are wanting to play in the traditional straight ahead bop and some post-bop style...

    Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass

    Others, and in no particular order: Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall

    There are several transcribed books on Wes (Steve Khan's book is a fave, but Wolf Marshall and others are out there too). There is now a Joe Pass Omnibook. Bottom line - lots of their great work is transcribed.


    Just remember though, most of the material is advanced stuff, played by masters. Grant and Kenny are easier to play than Wes and Joe.

  26. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Jazzstdnt View Post
    Well if you are wanting to play in the traditional straight ahead bop and some post-bop style...

    Wes Montgomery and Joe Pass

    Others, and in no particular order: Grant Green, Kenny Burrell, Jim Hall

    There are several transcribed books on Wes (Steve Khan's book is a fave, but Wolf Marshall and others are out there too). There is now a Joe Pass Omnibook. Bottom line - lots of their great work is transcribed.


    Just remember though, most of the material is advanced stuff, played by masters.
    Jim Hall is someone I have copied a tiny bit of on autumn leaves. Great player!

    Sorry for this question, you’ll probably hate it... but can you help me define pre bop and bebop? From what I have understood, the bebop is when people were tired of playing traditional jazz, which had like a simple form, and perhaps a tiny solo. Then they took it to a more advanced level with altered stuff and each player got to solo over the form. So it was less about dance music, and more about playing music. Am I onto something?

  27. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Jim Hall is someone I have copied a tiny bit of on autumn leaves. Great player!

    Sorry for this question, you’ll probably hate it... but can you help me define pre bop and bebop? From what I have understood, the bebop is when people were tired of playing traditional jazz, which had like a simple form, and perhaps a tiny solo. Then they took it to a more advanced level with altered stuff and each player got to solo over the form. So it was less about dance music, and more about playing music. Am I onto something?
    Well jazz history or wikipedia (God forbid) can do a better job than I.

    Pre-bop? I dunno. If that means swing, then OK.

    Traditional actually means New Orleans, not swing.

    Anyway, swing solos could be long too.

    Bebop had more up tempo stuff. Bebop had tougher and more frequent changes and key center changes as part of that. More chromatics, more "flatted fifths". Less dance-able, less swinging but still swung. It was more sit down and listen music as opposed to get up and dance music. It took jazz from dance music to higher art, and shrunk audiences in the process.

  28. #28
    Zenerken... you might want to post a clip of your playing... I can tell within a few seconds what you might want to work on.

    Practice should be separated into a few categories...

    Technical skills and performance skills... at least.

    Your technique will control what your able to play. By technique I mean how you realize music etc... on the guitar.
    The Guitar is not a piano or a sax.... technical skills are very different on every instrument. I play piano and sax... I suck but can read and know how the instruments work.... no chops etc...

    What type of music you want to play is a musical performance choice.... again you can't play what you don't have the technical skills to play.
    You might be able to rehearse... repetition, play it over and over and eventually get it out.... But that pretty much means... your technique isn't that good.

    I use 3 notes per string sometimes... great for fast scale passages, licks, patterns etc... but they usually involve position changes...

    Works with arpeggios going up OK with finger slides and again position changes... but descending usually sucks and I have problems coming up with consistent mechanical organization when playing music where the harmony has more movement. The transitions between fingerings involve position jumps... which leads to needing to stare at your fretboard...

    You end up with having memorized licks... nothing wrong with that... But what do you do when you don't know the tune or music. I can play all kinds of music.... maybe my musical choices could be better, but my technique allows me to play at fast tempos and fake it well. I don't need to watch my fretboard... because I already have a default fingering system that allows me to play almost anything anywhere on the neck. The system is designed for the guitar and designed for basic musical organizations... any style. I still need to know and understand the style... But I don't need to redesign my fingerings.

    You still need to work on three octave applications, contemporary and classical etc... but the transitions between positions are seamless. The basic 6th string, 7 positions and 12 fret repeating pattern is the same.

    It's still just a system... but it works. I do also understand Music... well.

    What don't you get from the simple PDFs....

  29. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Zenerken... you might want to post a clip of your playing... I can tell within a few seconds what you might want to work on.
    .
    i highly suggest you do this
    White belt
    My Youtube

  30. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by joe2758 View Post
    i highly suggest you do this
    Rc4l9wf0fdr6.128 (mp3cut.net) - Instaudio

    Here. I had my first jazz jam yesterday(except for when I play with my teacher). So this is my solo. Sorry if your ears bleed.

  31. #31
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...

  32. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...
    Thanks!

    Well, I only played arpeggio and notes from the scale. I didn't touch a pentatonic, not on purpose. I aimed at chord tones, and tried to aim on the 3rd a lot. Like the melody does.

  33. #33
    Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

    I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


    You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


    I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

    From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

    Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

    Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

  34. #34
    I 100% agree it sounds like rock and roll. Sorry if I came of like I didn’t agree. I just wanted to explain what I was thinking when I was playing. Yes, I am working very hard on arpeggios, and yes I do play the whole form through with using arpeggios, like you suggested. I guess what we can agree on, is that one can hear from my playing that I am a beginner. I guess that’s fair though, one can’t except anything else, when one is a beginner. I’ll try and record my next jam session in a month, perhaps you can listen if you hear some improvement? Thanks:-)

  35. #35
    Znerken,

    First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

    In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

    Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  36. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Znerken,

    First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

    In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

    Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?
    I should admit, that I haven’t been the best at listening to jazz. But lately, after I got interested in it for guitar, I have. So each month, I work with one standard. Daily, I do some transcribing of a solo I like for that standard. Yes, it takes a month to transcribe. Right now. That is Kenny Burrell on Jimmy Smith Bye Bye Blackbird. I have always liked a lot of miles Davis, and I also like the David Brubeck take five performance a lot, even before I played guitar. I also try to listen to the legends, at least I have stared listening now :-) I listen to Joe Pass, Jim Hall etc. Suggestions are welcome! I just came back from a run, where I had the Kenny and Jimmy Smith performance on repeat for 30 minutes.

  37. #37
    Well, for groove, you are certainly listening in the right place.

    I'd say, along with full transcription, get singing those lines, sing rhythms, play them on guitar...maybe not even playing the same notes, but play the same rhythm.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  38. #38
    Join Date
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    1,338
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...
    WOW Reg that is so fantastic to take so much time to provide such a meaningful, insightful and learned view.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  39. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

    I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


    You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


    I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

    From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

    Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

    Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

    So Reg, I am trying to improve, and was wondering if you would care to take a listen to a sound clip over Bye Bye Blackbird? Am I improving in the correct direction? It's a lick stolen from Wes inside there and yes, also a short pentatonic, but it's okay to use a little pentatonic in jazz, isn't it? Most if it is arpeggio related, though.


  40. #40
    Yes... better direction... could hear chords ... with cool pentatonic shape. There is an old Tpt player that teaches with that type of shape... Willie ? He uses that shape with blues feel and sound.... 5th 6th rt.....
    Chord F6/9

    C D F From F G A C D F pentatonic pattern. Old school but sounds great.

  41. #41
    I wonder, to the attendees of the study group. The author recommends to read the last chapters directly before starting the book. In chapter 27, he writes:

    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index-skjerm-jpg


    Did you practice this daily from the beginning? Basically soloing four times over a II-V-I with the guidelines the author has written out?

  42. #42
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
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    San Diego
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    5,303
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    I wonder, to the attendees of the study group. The author recommends to read the last chapters directly before starting the book. In chapter 27, he writes:

    Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing - Thread Index-skjerm-jpg


    Did you practice this daily from the beginning? Basically soloing four times over a II-V-I with the guidelines the author has written out?
    I forgot that advice, it's good advice and is an easy way to construct a solo.

    I took it as advice for solos in general and it doesn't apply to the connecting game over say a ii V I. After all you are suppose to play continous eighth notes when playing the conecting game which would make it impossible to follow that advice.
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

  43. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    I forgot that advice, it's good advice and is an easy way to construct a solo.

    I took it as advice for solos in general and it doesn't apply to the connecting game over say a ii V I. After all you are suppose to play continous eighth notes when playing the conecting game which would make it impossible to follow that advice.

    Yes, I think he means to do it as an exercise by itself?

  44. #44
    So I am getting ready to move on, and I am not quite sure I grasp what one should practice in chapter seven.

    Before chapter seven, you are supposed to practice the connecting game in situation 1-4, through two different major and two different minor patterns. Five minutes for each situation. Are you now supposed to practice the exact same, and additionally practice it one more time, but with substitutions?

  45. #45
    Also, this is probably a stupid question, but why does the author write the VII, III and VI arpeggio in minor with a flat sign in front?

  46. #46
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Texas
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    4,177
    Quote Originally Posted by znerken View Post
    Also, this is probably a stupid question, but why does the author write the VII, III and VI arpeggio in minor with a flat sign in front?

    I learned to stop answering questions long ago but to take a stab, my understanding is that the arpeggios he is giving are relative to the Major Scale. So, start with the Major Scale, and the make the appropriate notes flat to get the desired minor scale.

    So when considering the minor scale in relation to the major scale, you have will have a b3, b6, b7 (at least in the natural minor). Does this jog your reckoning?

    If not, just recall that the Major scale is R, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
    While the Natural Minor Scale is ------- R, 2, b3, 4, 5, b6, b7 and you would build arpeggios/chords off each degree

    Hope this helps.

  47. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by fep View Post
    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Pages 2 through 5 - Introduction and Chapter 1 - Getting Started

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 2 & 3 - Chapters 2 & 3 - Organizing Arpeggios

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapters 4, 5 and 6 - Chapters 4, 5 & 6 - Situation Playing and the Connecting Game

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 7 - Chapter 7 - Expanding Note Options with Added Color Tones

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 8, 9 & 10 - Chapter 8, 9, & 10 - Melodic Minor, Reference Sheets and Adding altered tones

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 11 - Chapter 11 - Connecting Game with the Altered Scale

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 12 - Chapter 12 - The Locrian #2 Scale

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 13, 14 & 15 - Chapter 13, 14, 15; Writing licks, Inserting Licks, Disguising Licks

    Study Group: Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing Chapter 16 & 17 - Chapter 16 & 17; Harmonizing the Melodic Minor Scale for Altered Dominants and mi7(b5) chords
    Is it too late to join you guys ?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  48. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Doublea A View Post
    Is it too late to join you guys ?


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    I just saw that this thread is from 2012/2013 I guess I am 5 years too late.


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

  49. #49
    At what point did you guys start seeing arpeggios on the fretboard clearly? I can easily play all of them, but being able to visualise them all in the heat of the moment, and especially connected, is a long term goal. How did you connect all of them? Especially the 5 different shapes of the same arpeggio. If you think major7, I would imagine the goal is to see all the notes from the arpeggios light up on the fretboard.



    One exercise I like to do, is to play the arpeggio horizontally, and each time I move in to a new shape, I name it.

  50. #50
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    San Diego
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    Yeah they do sort of light up on the fingerboard. Certain forms are easier for me than others. As I recall, some of us posted examples of us playing the same arpeggio, say Gmaj7, up and down the fingerboard in all positions as one continous arpeggio. Being able to do that with all of the arpeggios (i.e. Maj7, dom7, min7, and min7b5) would be a good goal.

    Eventually it all kind of came together (although I've regressed a bit from not continuing good practice habits).
    B+
    Frank (aka fep)

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