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  1. #31
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...

  2. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...
    Thanks!

    Well, I only played arpeggio and notes from the scale. I didn't touch a pentatonic, not on purpose. I aimed at chord tones, and tried to aim on the 3rd a lot. Like the melody does.

  3. #33
    Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

    I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


    You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


    I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

    From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

    Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

    Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

  4. #34
    I 100% agree it sounds like rock and roll. Sorry if I came of like I didn’t agree. I just wanted to explain what I was thinking when I was playing. Yes, I am working very hard on arpeggios, and yes I do play the whole form through with using arpeggios, like you suggested. I guess what we can agree on, is that one can hear from my playing that I am a beginner. I guess that’s fair though, one can’t except anything else, when one is a beginner. I’ll try and record my next jam session in a month, perhaps you can listen if you hear some improvement? Thanks:-)

  5. #35
    Znerken,

    First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

    In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

    Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  6. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Znerken,

    First of all, good on ya for getting out there and then putting yourself out here...that takes some guts.

    In addition to Reg's harmonic advice, I might suggest to absorb some rhythmic ideas from jazz too, into your soloing. You sound a bit tentative--heck, maybe you were, that's understandable! But I think your lines would have come across better if they were more in pocket. My ears would generally rather hear "vanilla" lines played with great groove than more complex lines that don't.

    Serious question, do you listen to a lot of jazz, and if so, who do you listen to?
    I should admit, that I haven’t been the best at listening to jazz. But lately, after I got interested in it for guitar, I have. So each month, I work with one standard. Daily, I do some transcribing of a solo I like for that standard. Yes, it takes a month to transcribe. Right now. That is Kenny Burrell on Jimmy Smith Bye Bye Blackbird. I have always liked a lot of miles Davis, and I also like the David Brubeck take five performance a lot, even before I played guitar. I also try to listen to the legends, at least I have stared listening now :-) I listen to Joe Pass, Jim Hall etc. Suggestions are welcome! I just came back from a run, where I had the Kenny and Jimmy Smith performance on repeat for 30 minutes.

  7. #37
    Well, for groove, you are certainly listening in the right place.

    I'd say, along with full transcription, get singing those lines, sing rhythms, play them on guitar...maybe not even playing the same notes, but play the same rhythm.
    Jeff Matz, Jazz Guitar:
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jeffreymatz

    "Jazz is like life...it goes on longer than you think, and as soon as you're like 'oh, I get it,' it ends."

    --The Ghost of Duke Ellington

  8. #38
    Join Date
    Mar 2014
    Location
    Melbourne, Australia
    Posts
    1,300
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken.... seeing is better... but ok... so your playing one scale and working with a few target notes within that scale... like most guitarist... noodling around developing a few rhythmic shapes and trying to keep the melody as reference for organization of shape of solo.... all good.

    So the shape you were using sounded like Cmin pentatonic, with dorian and 3 notes per string thing.... rock and blues style pattern.....

    So there are two things going on.... how your playing the instrument, the technical skills thing. And then what or how your going to create your solo.

    So technically... the pattern is designed to have access to notes with relationship to a Min Pentatonic pattern... the result is... what comes out is basically one sound and one harmonic reference....your playing C- rock and roll and trying to work with the melody and get through the changes... It's a very vanilla sound..... Your playing C-.
    I thought you sounded good... good time and there was feel. But there was basically no harmonic thing going on...

    So that melodic approach is one way to approach soloing.... basically use the melody and embellish it, there are standard mechanical approaches for how to do that... melodically, harmonically and rhythmically. They are organized just like techniques and then there are standard ways to fit that application within the space... the shape and physical space of the tune... The Form. It's pretty old school and personally gets old fast.... unless your great player.... Great players can make almost anything sound great... because they have great skills etc...

    So to somewhat expand what your doing.... using melodic targets, you need to expand the implied harmony or chords below that target, or use the space between the targets and use harmony to help create.... movement.

    So musically this can be simple... just use the actual changes.... and pick a melodic line... ( really just a lead line which is on top, that you come up with)...

    ex. use 1/2 notes, these are common boring examples of voiceleading lines... but you need to start somewhere...

    #1... Eb / D / C / Bb / A / F# / G / G //
    #2....Bb / A / A / G / G / F# / G / G //


    Then use different rhythmic figures between the target notes from ex. #1 or #2 and and change the notes in those rhythmic figures to imply the changes. You'll find again different patterns that you like. And generally the common practice is to play something two times and then vary or change the 3rd time. Or some other rhythmic pattern which creates the perception of repeat.... which creates a feel or groove with movement. It will feel better.

    In the above examples you could play three the same rhythmically and change the 4th and 8th...

    And Technically you can use mechanical positions and fingering... of Chord or scale... chord implies... as source for rhythmical figure to connect the Targets.... The result of changing positions ... will naturally help organize melodic movement and articulations etc... somewhat a technical way to help you learn how melodic lines can change when changing mechanical patterns which imply chords. The goal would be to expand your collection of licks and figures that have melodic and harmonic implication.... your ears will get bigger.... and in the process you'll be expanding your technical skills of your instrument...
    WOW Reg that is so fantastic to take so much time to provide such a meaningful, insightful and learned view.
    “When you’re creating your own ...., man, even the sky ain’t the limit.”
    Miles Davis

  9. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    Hey znerken... I'm trying to help you... I know it feels personal, but if you want to get better, you need to be able to realize that maybe there's more to the music than what You hear. I'm on your side...

    I understand you didn't play any pentatonic licks.... OK, But it sounded like ... the positions and fingerings your using are based on pentatonic fingerings. and the resulting playing from those positions have a default sound... Either C- or G- pentatonic patterns and playing scales... I did hear an arpeggio lick on the D7 Pedal feel in the middle ... but 95% of your playing sounded like you were using partial scales using Pentatonic patterns. There is nothing wrong with that.... I love pentatonic patterns. But it is generally not good for playing chord tone arpeggios or even just arpeggios in general..... Generally when one plays arpeggios... there is some reason... musically.... implying a chord to reinforce a melodic line... create chordal movement using melodic ideas... and the fingerings and positions are from chord shapes on the Guitar....or positions and fingerings that are more natural on the instrument to play arpeggios.


    You did hit 3rds... yes like the melody does... the only problem with hitting 3rds... it's almost like your not really saying much.... your playing basic chord tones.... they, (3rds), in themselves.... are already played or implied. When one develop ideas around 3rd... if that's what you want to use for your targets... 3rds. The 3rds don't make great solo material... what you use and do to connect and create relationships around and with them, (the 3rds), is where you might use arpeggios and scales to develop solos....


    I understand most teachers always say play chord tones etc.... but chord tones from basic changes... and are more of a learning process to learn how to understand whats going on Harmonically ... Arpeggios help create harmonic movement within your solo. Anyway....

    From reading some of your posts on this and other threads... It seems like your looking for musical organization of playing on the guitar.... how to play the notes with physical organization which will help you be able to play Jazz.

    Becoming aware of arpeggios....which are mechanical methods of implying harmony... chords, is part of that process. You need a method or approach... which becomes a skill or ability.... to play, use skillfully and efficiently... to be able to develop performance skills....using that very mechanical technique. It will become artistic etc.... but you need guitar based technique to be able to get to that point.

    Sometimes it helps to learn how to comp before one solos... it helps develop harmony skills. Can you play the tune just using arpeggios with different patterns... 1 3 5 7 etc.... then 3 5 7 1 etc... or 7 5 3 1 etc... there are many choices to have fun with, help gets your ears and fingering together.

    So Reg, I am trying to improve, and was wondering if you would care to take a listen to a sound clip over Bye Bye Blackbird? Am I improving in the correct direction? It's a lick stolen from Wes inside there and yes, also a short pentatonic, but it's okay to use a little pentatonic in jazz, isn't it? Most if it is arpeggio related, though.


  10. #40
    Yes... better direction... could hear chords ... with cool pentatonic shape. There is an old Tpt player that teaches with that type of shape... Willie ? He uses that shape with blues feel and sound.... 5th 6th rt.....
    Chord F6/9

    C D F From F G A C D F pentatonic pattern. Old school but sounds great.

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