Joe Elliott - Introduction to Jazz Guitar Soloing

[Moonray]

I'd like to thank John Graham for his generous [and meticulous]notes from his
studies with Joe Elliot at MI.
Not to mention the "Scott Henderson files" from classes also attended at MI.

Wow!.....You did a great job of rendering down these two gentlemen's approaches.


Not having seen Joe Elliot's book, never the less I feel I've got a pretty
clear handle on what he's laying down.
I could only recommend that participants in this discussion read through
John Graham's offerings. Many of your questions may be answered there.
[Depending on your current understanding ]

BTW.....The material contained in Scott Henderson's views on the "BUSINESS" end of the music biz[including very down to earth, no BS stuff on "tone", gear etc] is absolutely forehead-smackingly obvious but brilliant!
Only one who has been there- done that could have reached these conclusions.
Would-be pros.....read this!
Thanks again John for your sterling efforts and generosity.
I just felt that your seemingly simple looking post may have been overlooked.

[Helgo]

Hi moonray.

- (...) John Graham (...) notes from his
studies (...)
- "Scott Henderson files" (...) Many of your questions may be answered there. (...) Scott Henderson's views on the "BUSINESS" end of the music biz (...)

Are you speaking about other books or websites? Where could one find these materials you are referring to?
Please post a link to the website and/or books.

Thanks,
H.

[Moonray]

Post #14 in this thread.

You'll see why it is easily overlooked.

[Helgo]

Post #14 in this thread.

Oh, right, thanks!

You'll see why it is easily overlooked.

[frankiemachine]

I missed this too. Thanks to John, and also to Moonray for drawing attention to it.

[John Graham]

I'd like to thank John Graham for his generous [and meticulous]notes from his
studies with Joe Elliot at MI.
Not to mention the "Scott Henderson files" from classes also attended at MI.

Wow!.....You did a great job of rendering down these two gentlemen's approaches.


Not having seen Joe Elliot's book, never the less I feel I've got a pretty
clear handle on what he's laying down.
I could only recommend that participants in this discussion read through
John Graham's offerings. Many of your questions may be answered there.
[Depending on your current understanding ]

BTW.....The material contained in Scott Henderson's views on the "BUSINESS" end of the music biz[including very down to earth, no BS stuff on "tone", gear etc] is absolutely forehead-smackingly obvious but brilliant!
Only one who has been there- done that could have reached these conclusions.
Would-be pros.....read this!
Thanks again John for your sterling efforts and generosity.
I just felt that your seemingly simple looking post may have been overlooked.

David Simmonds took Joe Elliot’s (and Scott Henderson’s) class at GIT and generously posted his class notes. I’m studying and enjoying Elliot’s book, stumbled upon the Simmonds’ Web page, and merely posted a link to it. Thank you David Simmonds, Joe Elliot, and Scott Henderson.

[Moonray]

Credit where credit's due!

Thanks either way John.
MJP

[cubistguitar]

I love the book. I haven't mastered any of it really, put it to the side for a little while. Good excuse to pull it out and get back on the horse.

This book was really getting me into playing arpeggios in different positions than i usually do, great for my rock brain that wants to learn everything root down.

[bobsguitars09]

Can the three note per string scale shapes be applied to this book?

[bobsguitars09]

I'd like to thank John Graham for his generous [and meticulous]notes from his
studies with Joe Elliot at MI.
Not to mention the "Scott Henderson files" from classes also attended at MI.

Wow!.....You did a great job of rendering down these two gentlemen's approaches.


Not having seen Joe Elliot's book, never the less I feel I've got a pretty
clear handle on what he's laying down.
I could only recommend that participants in this discussion read through
John Graham's offerings. Many of your questions may be answered there.
[Depending on your current understanding ]

BTW.....The material contained in Scott Henderson's views on the "BUSINESS" end of the music biz[including very down to earth, no BS stuff on "tone", gear etc] is absolutely forehead-smackingly obvious but brilliant!
Only one who has been there- done that could have reached these conclusions.
Would-be pros.....read this!
Thanks again John for your sterling efforts and generosity.
I just felt that your seemingly simple looking post may have been overlooked.

where can we find this info?

[Helgo]

Hi bobsguitars09,

Post #14 in this thread.

You'll see why it is easily overlooked.

(Moonray)

Cheers,
H.

[Helgo]

...oh, and about the three-note-per-string scale shapes:

Yes, they can be applied. However, to do so, you should be abled to organize the arpeggios of the scale yourself (or ask the guys on the forum for help...I wouldn´t mind helping you out there).

The book, for me, has these basic tools:
- Presenting Finger Positions
- Organizing Arpeggios in these positions
- the "connecting game" (i.e. playing over changes)
- Playing in "Common situations" (i.e. II-V-Is in major, minor, long, short, etc...)
- ....(and some more advanced stuff...)

The first two won´t be a big help for you if you use the three-note-per-string scale shapes. That´s where you´ll have to do the work yourself...

I am currently shifting from CAGED (which is used in the book) to three-note-per-string scale shapes, so I am kind of in the same boat.


Let me know what you decide...

Cheers,
H.

[Nuff Said]

I was interested in the post, so I got a copy of the book.

I've been playing for many,many years, so I already know the fretboard and each mode's arpp, so I've got to "The Connecting Game" chapter 5 very quickly.

I think "The Connecting Game" is a great way to learn to play the changes to a song. Its similar to the approach called "playing the chord tones".

Thanks for the interesting post, I'll get back to the book.

Nuff

[milkmannnv]

I find this book very weak as it does not contain music or tabs of the examples that are on the cd! I learned more from fep (which I had to tab out from his videos) and the Black Orpheas post,than this book and cd taught me! I was reminded of diatonic arpeggio shapes for guitar,which was an excellent exercise,and the use of the melodic minor scales over Dom7th and Minb5 chords,but I think that when you are dealing with such a complicated music that you should simplify the teaching of it as much as you can,which means providing examples with tabs so that we can more fully understand the concepts involved,especially when you are dealing with newbies to the style.

[cubistguitar]

The point is for you to explore the fingerboard and make examples (ie : licks) yourself. Did you read the last chapters as suggested in the book? I think the book is great, very logically laid out, no magic jazz voodoo, just the truth about my technique the guitar and the shed. Feps good work is super and does provide extra help, but thats what this group is about, leaning on others support in the study of serious guitarcraft. Do enjoy the support found here, but i hardly think the material is weak, its tough and doesn't do the roadwork for you. You gotta run those miles for yourself.

[milkmannnv]

I am kind of new to posting my thoughts on the internet,But as I said I like the idea of using arpeggios,neighbor notes,chromatic notes,altered scales and triads for chord changes,But what I have found on this study group and what I already know should be sufficient food for thought.I just don't find the book/cd very useful to me and I will probabably be selling it on ebay after I write out the fretboard patterns,which I have found very useful.

[fep]

I really like the book, you find it weak.

That's cool, we're all different. Vive la differance

[milkmannnv]

After checking out this book a little more thoughtfully,I may have been wrong calling this book weak.

When I wrote out and memorized fep's video examples on pattern IV diatonic arps in G maj, pattern II arps in D min (in one position of the neck) and the Black Orpheas solo 2 weeks ago,I thought the book,which I just got a week ago in the mail would be full of written out examples like these instead of fretboard diagrams,some standard jazz chord progressions(situations) and a few standard notation examples.The format it is written in threw me off at first.

After learning solos by Joe Pass,Django Reinhardt,Charlie Parker,John Coltrane, ect, all of whom used the ideas presented in this book,I felt like I was taking a step backwards when I first went through the book, but now that I have checked it out a little better, I think I will give this book another chance.

My Bad! Asi es la vida!

[Frank67]

Dear milmannv,

I am happy that you give the book another chance! IMHO one has to find what works for oneself in learning and there is no single best solution how to get there.

I am certainly still very much at the beginning of the learning curve; yet I find that the Elliot book resonates with me. it has the right balance of theory and practice. It is systematic, it is not jumping, it acknowledges that the basic skills takes a lot of work and it leads us through it in small and intelligible steps.

I tried other jazz books before and I did not find any of them as useful as this one (and it helps to have a study group, thanks to fep!). Most of them do things way too quickly - like "oh boy, there is that really cool locrian#2 scale. Just practice it across the neck and in all twelve keys and then apply it, but don't forget to swing". And in the next sentence it will move on to whatever else .... most people, certainly including myself, will not spend a month on one sentence in a book. Kudos to those who do, but I guess that most people need the assignment more explicitly. Now I am just happy to spend four weeks on just doing that one thing in plain eigth notes and the book tells me that its ok. I feel that it does help a lot. It may well be silly that it takes a book to tell me that its ok, but that leads into a discussion of the psychology of learning and I don't intend to go there.

Other people prefer to learn by learning solos of the masters (which just tend to frustrate the hell out of me as much as I admire what the masters do). I can (and did) spend months to learn Djangos solo on "Minor swing" and it is rewarding and everything - but I don't feel that I learn the concepts when I do that. Others may. I guess learning the classic solos will be more rewarding once I got the basic concepts really down (I would certainly love to be able to do some of Wes's solos).

At the end of the day I guess it doesn't matter that much which approach one takes. The goal is certainly to arrive at a place where one feels at home with ones playing and that the music that we make has something to do with who we are and what we are hoping to express.

Anyways, sorry for the ramble and everybody enjoy spending time practicing :-)

[milkmannnv]

Yeah,this has been quite a departure for me,as I usually learn the songs and a chorus or two of other peoples solos and then come up with some variations on them.

There are 2 pretty good comping lessons for Stella By Starlight and There Will Never Be Another You on this website that weren't too difficult and gave me a few ideas that you might want to check out.

[HugoJacquet]

Hello,

Just ordered the book since a pupil of mine bought it, so I had to check it out...

The link in post #14 is not working however...

Hugo

[znerken]

Did anyone find or make patterns for the 4 other shapes in the caged system used in the book? Kind of strange that the author didn't provide this..

[Reg]

Hey znerken
Joe's book of 5 patterns... all based on Gmaj

Pattern #1... is 5th string root based and uses the III- reference chord... Gmaj and Bmin are Diatonic subs The fingering is based off IVmaj fingering

Pattern #2... is based on 5th string root again and uses the V7 chord fingering and actually moves up to the VI- chord... between 9th and 10th positions.

Pattern #3 ... is based on 6th string root and uses VII-7b5 (F#-7b5) fingerings and again moves in mid flight up to Imaj7 fingering, change of position.

Pattern# 4... is based on 6th string root .... standard I maj7 fingering.

Pattern #5 ... is based on 4th string root and uses again two positions, III- and IV maj..

You might get fingerings from jazz players... isn't Joe still a rock player. I mean you can play jazz tunes with anything... but the results will be very different. Those organizations of fingerings.... have very strong musical implications.... not to mention the articulations.

[b0gy]

I am a little late to the party but here is a file I put together with diatonic arpeggios in all 5 shapes of CAGED system. Elliott's book discusses only Patterns I and III which are also included.