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Hey,
This may seem like a really dumb question...but can someone please give me a simple explanation on the difference between Jimmy bruno's fingerings and the modes? Are they basically the same thing?
If NOT, then what are the pros/cons of each?
I have been studying the modes for a while, and then i came across this, and i was like hmm...i wonder if i"m wasting my time learning the modes? I mean i understand the basics of them, and i"m at the point where they are starting to "light up" on my fretboard...and i'm just wonderin if i should adapt to his fingerings instead of the modes?
They almost seem identical to the modes to me? but i could be wrong....
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07-06-2011 02:46 PM
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You are confusing modes with fingerings I think. All the modes are playable in all positions, contrary to what most literature on the net leads us to believe. We simply need to know how all the notes in each fingering relate to each mode.
Originally Posted by JazzFanatik
Rather than modes, it is probably more useful to look at the arpeggios he has laid out in the fingerings. In the long run this will help the modes make more sense too.
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okay thanks. yeah i may have worded that weird. I think i know what the modes are, I guess I am just confused at how his concept is "new" because to me it just seems like another way of presenting the modes? Maybe i am missing something and just don't know it...
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Modes relate to a particular scale. Take a scale and start playing it from the second note of the scale and you are playing a mode of that scale. On the other hand if you learn a scale pattern (or mode of a scale) with the root starting from the first finger, second finger, middle finger, little finger you are learning fingerings of the scale.
Last edited by Gramps; 07-08-2011 at 10:37 AM.
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Maybe it would be better for someone to present a simplified theory of using modes to play the guitar. That might enlighten some of us who use the fingerings as to why it may be important for us to learn modal improv (or not learn modal improv depending on the case).
~DB
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Bruno's '5 Shapes' are simply a way of organizing the fingerings for the major scale across the entire fret board. He is not teaching them as modes as the underlying harmony is not changing every time you switch to a new 'shape'. Originally Posted by JazzFanatik
In other words, if you're practicing the 5 shapes in the key of C, you are still playing in the key of C Major no matter what shape you are using.
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If you plan on communicating or jamming with other musicians, it would be good to be aware of the modes. No one is going to call a jam in 'Shape 2' or tell you they wrote a tune in 'Shape 5'. Originally Posted by lindydanny
There are a lot of videos on youtube explaining the modes if you need clarification. Truefire.com has some good lessons on the topic as well.
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Modal colors are implied by the notes and intervals that are emphasized in sound and not by a fingering.
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I understand that, but I've also never heard someone say "Let's jam on the myxolydian." Granted, I've not been to that many jam sessions, but I generally hear things like "This is in the Key of Db" or "This one starts on a G chord". Most musicians I know don't even know what a mode is. And it ain't hurting their ability to play along or solo. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
~DB
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Time to move to a bigger city? Originally Posted by lindydanny
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When I'm playing with others, it's not uncommon for someone to say, for instance, "look at this section with a lydian dominant feel" or to point out that the tune is following a harmonic minor structure, maybe a piece like Solar or Nardis might invite a suggestion of a modal choice. Originally Posted by lindydanny
In my interpretation, modal is not running a scale from one end to the other and back down, it's a way of hearing melodic possibilities based on related tonal centers.
You don't have to have an encyclopedic knowledge of modes by name, but it is a way of getting more modern sounds based on interrelated scales. Michael Brecker didn't know the names of the scales he played, not by name, but he sure knew them by sound and he knew them inside and out. (this related from a guitarist who played with him a lot)
You certainly can solo beautifully without modal interpretation, but if your ears or desires take you into the post-Wayne Shorter era, it goes a long way to answering the question "What WAS that thing you were playing?" when the idea and phrase is based on a mode of harmonic major, for instance.
Try this one, you know the bridge of Stella? Those long changes? When I play on them, I think modal. That Ab7? I think lydian b7. It works for me. Your choice.
DavidLast edited by TH; 07-08-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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Jimmy's 5 Fingerings (aka 5 Shapes) have nothing to do with any modes or modal theory.
They are a way of learning where the notes are on the fretboard.
There turn out to be 5 useful "positions" on the guitar fretboard, from which you can reach all the notes. Jimmy's refined these from years of experience with what works and what doesn't.
The 5 fingerings would be useless to a piano player, or in fact to anyone playing guitar in a non-standard tuning. They're just a way of getting around the axe.
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I typed out two different responses but realized that yours was much better than both of mine so I'll just '+1' it lol. Originally Posted by TruthHertz
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I always remember seeing a Joe Pass seminar when a student asked a question about modes. Joe's response was "I don't know nothin' about no modes (sic)".
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Joe was playing in a club here and there were a lot of students hanging on his every note. Before he began the set, he looked out into the audience and he began "a lot of you kids are here to steal my licks. This is what I have to say about that..." and he proceeded to produce a white cloth that he covered his left hand with and he played a burning Cherokee with 2 full choruses under the cloth. ha- ...nothin' about no modes... that's a funny one thanks. Originally Posted by whiskey02
Y'know there's a phenomenon I see and experience among some guitarists, and that's taking opinions of guitar heroes (well deserved opinions earned through a lifetime of experience, I will add) and interpreting them as gospel. I'm talking about this idea that modal music is somehow different from bebop. I'm talking about this idea that music that bases its melodies on the modes of different scales is a misuse, an abomination or a betrayal of true jazz. I really don't understand this. I've heard these opinions from Jimmy Bruno when I was in Philly (don't get me wrong, I'd go to Chris's to see him all the time), I get this from his students (which I never understood because they never even heard the music that was being made in the clubs an hour to the north) and I get this from some that factionalize music in bebop and modal divisions. To me modern improvised music is bebop. It doesn't call itself anything when it's being played, and neither did Charlie Parker's music worry about identity.
In my world, a world I admit I limit by my own ignorance, bebop never stopped, it is an ever expanding music of creation of melody over a set of chord changes. If you solo over a VI chord you play Aolean. That's a mode. If you solo over a II chord, it sounds different from the VI, it's called a Dorian. Move the 7th note up a half step and the flavour changes: melodic minor. Let's forget the fancy names, just savour the way these notes are different and use them accordingly.
These scales have arpeggios, chord tones. Use them. These scales also have sounds you can get by thinking in 4ths, or in 2nds. That's your choice in what you want to say.
Autumn Leaves, OK? Let's not think key for now, we'll think changes. Following by the book it can be seen as Originally Posted by lindydanny
II V I IV VII V7of VI VI here's your A section.
What if you looked at your II chord and thought "Hey I like that minor chord, and the #6 sounds really cool when I really get to know it. Welcome to dorian, that's a world of sound that comes from that mode, you can find all sorts of ways to bring it out. That's modal thinking. Each chord has a chord scale that has sounds within it, and that includes embellished arpeggios that make "jazz" sound "jazzy". You don't finger in a "modal" way, you bring out the sounds of that mode when you're playing.
Back in Bach's day, they used different minor scales, and classical music used them all since. Melodic minor and Harmonic minor had sounds that gave each era of music new colours. The modes of these scales are the new colours that contemporary mode based improvisation is based on. It's not new, it was just a new sound to the players in the 50's. You like Wes? Those sounds he gets playing Impressions? That's a mode.
I'm listening to Mike Moreno's Airegin right now. Classic Sonny Rollins tune. I'm hearing bebop. I'm hearing modal. I'm hearing chromatic. It swings. Mike's as modern as they come but he plays jazz with the knowledge of modes when he looks at a chord symbol.
Can somebody explain why they don't like modal elements in jazz?
David
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well, nat 6 on a II gives away 3 on V...that's fine, I just personally usually don't do that.
One of the best arguments I ever heard was that it's not the tools, it's the handyman.
Also, modes are a staple of rock guitar pedagogy. A lot of guitarist who have "studied modes" in a not-jazz setting then sound like s*** when they try to use the same thinking in jazz, over changes.
It's probably more the stigma and non-jazz use of modes that causes all the fuss rather than the actual modes themselves.
My true jazz education had me start by connecting chords and relating back to the melody, so modes didn't (and still don't) take much part in that. However I'm seeing that for less functional harmony, chord scales can be a life saver.
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Experimenting with a modal approach to improv gave birth to the best selling jazz record of all time. That a good enough reason to at least be aware of what the modes are? Originally Posted by lindydanny
NPR's Jazz Profiles: Miles Davis <i>Kind of Blue</i>
"The best selling jazz record of all time was released 40 years ago and it still sells 5,000 copies a week. It is a universally acknowledged masterpiece, revered as much by rock and classical music fans as by jazz lovers. The album is Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.
Even before Kind of Blue, Davis was experimenting with "modal" jazz, keeping the backround of a tune simple while solists played a melody over one or two "modes," or scales, instead of busy chord progressions -- the usual harmonic foundation of jazz.
In addition, Bill Evans introduced Miles to classical composers, such as Bela Bartok and Maurice Ravel, who used modalities in their compositions. Davis also drew on his knowledge of the modal qualties in the blues."
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TruthH, I appreciate your explanation. That clarifies for me what the hype actually is about.
Let me clarify, though, that by "hype" I am not trying to diminish the usefulness of modes.
For me, I know the theory of modes. For playing, I'm still settling in to getting my fingers to push the right strings/frets on the guitar which ultimately is more important to me. Compared to a year ago (before I started working on JB's fingerings), now my abilities to solo have gone from pass-me-this-round-fellas to me next! What I am finding is not that I don't bring out the best parts of the song/feel, but that I'm still not fast enough to get everything I'm hearing, feeling, and thinking on the fretboard before the phrase ends.
From what I know and what I'm reading here, I'm beginning to get a better technique for modes and soloing. But, I still have the nagging feeling that the real secret in soloing doesn't sit with memorizing odd names and thinking about every note I play but about hearing what is going on and letting the music tell me what to do.
~DB
P.S.: This is a great discussion. Thanks to all who are participating good heartedly.
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There is music in jazz that uses pedal points extensively. Sometimes it uses one modal color and sometimes several combined.
The pedals can also move around and or be combined with non pedal oriented progressions.
It is not only the one chord for 16 bars or longer variety. It is important sound in jazz evolution.
I leave it to others to determine if this is a branch of modal music.
On the other hand we have come to use the term modal to indicate aspects of the sound canvas of scales.
Each degree within the scale has a set of intervals that revolve around that note.
Building in 3rds from that note yields a 3rd, a triad, a 7th, a 9th, an 11th and a 13th chord.
These sounds give as choices on how to address major, minor and dominant function.
This variety is a basic component as contemporary jazz language.
Drawing from major, melodic minor, harmonic minor and harmonic major yields 28 distinct sets of intervals.
Combined with diminished scales, augmented scales, whole tone, various pentatonics and hexatonics, blues scales, etc., gives us a big palette.
The one thing I grasped from George Russell's "Lydian Chromatic" book was that through studying different scales you can learn functional contexts for every interval. It is easier to learn all the chromatic sounds in smaller organized chunks than from the 12 note scale itself.
It is important in my view to be aware of these intervallic colors. It is unimportant by what method that you learnt them.
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There is no one secret to soloing that I am aware of. If you discover it, please let me know! Originally Posted by lindydanny
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Modes seem to be a fairly common source of confusion, huh? I can't think of anything more useless when you are trying to make music than assigning clumsy terminology. If I am playing a 2-5-1 in the key of C, I certainly don't think of three different modes. I understand the concept of attaching a name to a re-grouping of the notes of the "parent" scale and the harmonic implication, but I just don't see the importance. (...and I have been teaching college theory for 22 years.) The 5 shapes each contain every mode, arpeggio, guide tone, extension, etc. Each is a convenient, playable way to group the notes of a major scale.
Jimmy's concept helped free me from a great deal of the intellectual gymnastics that were a hinderance to my playing.
BTW - I think that there are other players who have illustrated the same scale shapes in their teaching. It seems like I remember seeing these in some Howard Roberts materials, among others. We seem to always refer to the shapes as "Jimmy Bruno's five shapes."Last edited by ScottM; 07-11-2011 at 11:35 PM.
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Scott, that's what I've been getting at.
I didn't want to dismiss the theory, but I wanted to make sure that it was understood that I put technique and music first before theory. The 5 shapes focus on the technique, which you can use to make music, which can be explained using the theory. I'm not able to think backwards on this.
Jimmy once told me in one of the chat discussions that he used to host that the five shapes have nothing to do with modes. His point was not that they are not important to the theory, but he wanted to not have his beginner/intermediate students thinking about big words rather than simple lines.
Again, the 5 shapes are not perfect, but they give such a good frame work for those of us unable, unwilling, or incapable of learning the theory first. All the right notes are on the fretboard, and these shapes just help you find them. The modes may refine that more, but I've got to get my fingers in the right key before I start looking around for modes.
Musician: That was a sweet myxolydian lick you just play!
Me: Uh, I guess it sounded alright...
~DB
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You are definitely on the right track. I didn't see your previous post before I posted my reply. Sorry about that.
No matter what verbiage we attach to the sounds, the sounds came first.
-Scott
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I've never found the modes to be confusing but than again, I've only tried to utilize them in situations where it is appropriate. While I wouldn't apply modal theory to playing over a 2-5-1, I find it makes perfect sense over a tune like 'So What'. Originally Posted by ScottM
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I think you're doing the best thing as a student, keeping an open mind but determining for yourself what is best for your needs and for the style of music that you want to play. This is my approach to learning as well. Originally Posted by lindydanny
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