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Mick Goodrick suggests working each mode on single strings, in the first section of The Advancing Guitarist. His focus seems to be more about getting the sounds in your ears and under your fingers, rather than a theoretical understanding of how to use modes.
I suppose it depends on whether you are at the "advancing" stage or not.Last edited by Jonzo; 09-26-2014 at 06:28 PM.
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09-26-2014 05:21 PM
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Once it really clicked for me that the "modes" were just the chords extended out to the 13th, and then rearranged, it really changed how I thought about them. Now I tend to think of them as A) big chords or "note pools", or B) families of triads.
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May I ask what is tonal and what is modal progression ? Hope I am not offtopic
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There are certainly many more qualified to discuss specifics than me, but I think the question is getting missed here. The "2/5/1" has got everyone talking about not playing dorian, then mixolydian, but I don't think that's what is being asked. Can you play something different over G7 besides just G mixo?"
Originally Posted by guitarplayer007
Again, I'm certainly not going to answer that question in detail, but I assume the answer is "yes". Isn't that really about modal interchange or something; subbing other chords/modes for the G7?
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In modern times... the last 50 years, Modal implies using a different organization for creating Function in music. Function is simply the motor that creates movement in music.
Most western music functions within the Ionian mode. The guidelines for how we hear and the how and why of music.
Different modes have different characteristic notes, the notes that creates the sound of the mode.
For example Lydian , in key of C, the fourth degree is F, if we decide to make that degree of the Cmaj scale our new tonal center, F lydian. We change the tonal guidelines, the characteristic pitch is B... the #4th in scale applications or the #11th in arpeggio applications.
The simplest guidelines to create tonal organization is using that characteristic pitch, "B" as the control to create function or chordal movement...
The root or I chord is the Tonic chord... Fmaj7 is the basic reference for the tonal organization.
Chords that have the characteristic pitch as a chord tone function somewhat like a Dominant chord, they want to resolve or move to other chords without that characteristic pitch. There are some basic guidelines for usage etc... but it works.
The other organization for creating different tonal organization from different modes is using that characteristic pitch to establish a tonic or I chord. Using the CP , just flip the guidelines somewhat around, it will also work.
It's complicated because of the strong established use of the tritone etc...in Maj/min tonal music... the guidelines we're use to.
So generally it takes some skills to establish different tonal centers using different modes.
So as Matt said... yes, basic guidelines to how you use the characteristic pitch to create relationships which imply a tonal center.
D dorian... using the nat. 6th degree or "B" and imply Tonal reference of Dminor.
E phrygian... using b2
Gmixo.... using b7th
A aeol... using the b6th
B locrian is in a different world, uses the 2nd mentioned organization.Last edited by Reg; 10-07-2014 at 09:44 AM.
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In simple terms, tonal music is the type of song that we typically associate with the Great American Songbook. Songs with Chord Progressions such as, All of Me, Autumn Leaves, Satin Doll, All The Things You Are, Ain't Misbehavin', Georgia on My Mind. The song begins, progresses through the chord changes to a definite end. Originally Posted by gilley
May I ask what is tonal and what is modal progression ? Hope I am not offtopic
Modal music is tune like So What and Impressions where the chords are static or don't move for long periods like four, eight or sixteen bars.
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To the op, I'd point out the term 'modal' is used pretty loosely Tumane a lot of other things specially to guitarists. Monk's definition is the right one, but the term is loosely used, especially on the Internet, to refer to things like: what notes you can you play over a chord, what degree of the major scale you start on over different chords, or even scale fingerings. Originally Posted by monk
And the misuse of this term everywhere makes it frustrating when asking a question to people who actually know what the term "Modal" is supposed to mean.
I feel like the op was asking what notes besides those from c major and it's modes can you play over the G7 to make it sound jazzier.
Whether we like it or not, the term "Modal" has been appropriated by a couple of generations of rock instructors and writers to mean "a collection of notes for playing over certain chords". That's the way it was talked about and all the guitar magazines I grew up reading back in the 80s, and that was 30 years ago. I think when this kind of question is asked, there is an opportunity to answer the real question they're asking while at the same time educating them on what real modal music is.
Of course, maybe I'm just misunderstanding something.Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 10-07-2014 at 12:08 PM.
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So maybe you just want to know how or what to play over the V7 or G7, and make it sound like G7 as compared to just Cmaj starting on G.
Sometimes we call this implying changes, and the trick to implying a chord is to use the characteristic note or notes of the chord to imply the G7.
G7's characteristic note is the b7th or F and to use modal technique you would create relationships, (create melodic ideas using that F ), or more traditional would be to use the triton of G7 or F and B and again create melodic ideas, generally leading to resolving to Cmaj7. There are a few choices of voice leading or where the notes move to.
This can also get very vanilla and boring but is somewhat required basic knowledge for implying changes.
There are lots of examples of this style of playing etc...it will become the art of playing and not actually saying anything.
Sorry I obviously can't really stand this style of playing, but I play way to many gigs where that's what I have to do.
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None of the professional jazz musicians I have talked to reference using modes as a way to shape improvising. They talk about playing chords, playing extensions and tensions, and about resolution. They talk about major and minor keys. Not modes. Arpeggios still seem to be the basis for horn players. There may be some jazz musicians who use modes as a concept for their playing but I haven't found them to talk to yet.
I think the utility of learning the fingerings for modes is to help you find your way around the fingerboard so that you are not locked into a few shapes. Jimmy Bruno teaches his "five shapes" for the major scale in his online course and this accomplished much of the same thing.
For dominant chords, there's an almost no brainer way to spice things up. Play the major scale one half step up from the dominant chord, so for G7 play an A flat major scale. You've got all the tensions right there; it's really easy to finger and really easy to resolve. Tension and release! I think I got that from a Robert Conti book, IIRC, the only one of his that I own.
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Yea there is a difference between single line players... horn and chordal players. But that would be their problem, if they can't hear or understand modal concepts. Most single line players generally begin to hear and understand more vertical harmonic concepts when they compose... or begin to get shit from rhythm section players about their charts.
When playing chords... note by note, the extensions generally have a reference to a harmonic organizational system. Generally that is Major/Minor functional harmony... use of Maj. and Min Keys with tonal guideline from the Mode Ionian. For many that is simply their ears, it works. I guess it depends on how one feels at the moment.
Fingerings and using the modal terms for reference of those fingerings, is and has been a technical usage for about 50 years. As far as the seven position and the five position fingerings systems... there's a big difference.
There is not really a relationship between the term Mode as fingerings and as modal harmonic concept. Apples and oranges.
The use of Abmaj. scale over G7... yea that's out. The C and Db really create harmonic tension.
Do you mean Ab Melodic Min. basic use of G7 Altered.
or even older school use of G7 from C har. mim. and add the #9 to G7... G, Ab A# B C D Eb F
or the Dim and whole tone melodic application... again old school
or maybe the G7sus b9, generally from use of G Phrygian , ( playing Ab maj Lydian over G7).(or Lydian Aug. from Fmm)
Or as you said just use Abmaj scale
Generally this process of using a substitution, Abmaj when seeing G7 has organization, either harmonically or melodically.
If there is harmonic organization, it can be different than melodic organization. Maybe it's useful be to aware or maybe it's not... this should be on a different thread.
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Reg, honestly, I thought your above post was MORE inline with the intended question in the op. I think there was maybe confusion on terminology used by the poster. You almost have to know the answer to phrase the question properly....?
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Over a v7, you can play any of the twelve notes that sounds "right" to you.
(Dons flame retardant suit)
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The traditional way the modes are explained is that you take for instance the C major scale and uses the notes from the C major scale. If you start on the D-note, then you have the D Dorian scale, which is true, but leads to a lot of confusion because it doesnt say anything about what the Dorian scale actually is.
And the second reason is that if you play in the key of C and then wants to play the D Dorian scale starting on the D note, its still the same scale and the same notes as the C major scale. That is not D Dorian, because you are still playing in the key of C major.
He then goes on explaining what are the charachteristics about the different modes, which are three major scales and four minor scales, where the most important difference is the third note, which is lowered a half step in all the 4 minor scales.
If you use numbers to form a pattern of the major scale the pattern would be 1-2-3-4-5-6-7 and then 8 if you count from C to C. He explains that all numbers in a scale form like this are related to the major scale, so when a note is lowered or raised in a scale it is always compared to what it would be in the major scale.
So if you have a raised fourth (note number 4 raised a half step) in a scale that means it would be a raised forth note compared to what it would be in the major scale. So every scale is always compared to what it would be in the major scale.
He starts by using a single C note as a backing track playing a C major (ionian) scale first. 1234567
Then how it sounds when the 4th note is raised a half step - #4 (Lydian) over a C note backing track, emphasizing the raised 4th note. Lydian is a major scale with a raised 4th note. 123#4567
Then how it sounds when the 7th note is lowered a half step -b7 (Mixolydian) over a C note backing track, emphasizing the lowered 7th note. Mixolydian is a major scale with a lowered 7th note. 123456b7
And goes on with the 4 remaining minor modes in C, which clearly made me hear how different the modes sounded when played over a C backing track.
12b3456b7 - Dorian
12b345b6b7 - Aeolian
1b2b345b6b7 - Phrygian
1b2b34b5b6b7 - Locrian
This might not be what the op asked for, but it certainly made me understand the 7 modes and how they relates to the major scale
Last edited by Bambus123; 10-08-2014 at 06:27 PM.
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Stan, I've posted many examples and many detailed explanations, even some playing examples. But maybe you could give me some kind of help ... What do you understand about the modes and modal concepts, do I need to start from square one. Do you understand function in tonal music. Would you understand the possibility of different functionional concepts with reference to different modal tonalitys...
So the post with reference to Morten the term is basically a term used for the technical organization of the notes with basic reference to the maj scale. Some mention of the differences between similar scales, no real concept of organization, let alone the one detail which somewhat created different modal tonalities.... Which note(s) create the relationships that define the tonality.
But one can always just play what sounds right to their ear. I understand all the BS is just that. But some ears can hear the difference , just as some can hear what rhythmically is right, in a pocked , groove ... Balance. I'll post some new material... Listening does seem to work much easier for most
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Thanks, Reg. Square one is not necessary. I get function, understand modes, but don't think about them, am working on a deeper understanding of melodic minor, other than the altered scale, which I have pretty well internalized.
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Hey Stan... cool
So when you say you understand modes, do you mean the fingerings or the organization of relationships which can define a mode.
You said your working on Melodic Minor, generally when using jazz applications, MM becomes very modal with applications and relationships.
If you have Altered internalized... you have Lydian b7 or the MM diatonic Sub of altered.
Example, A Melodic Min.
G#7altered the tritone sub, D7#11... can also function as the Diatonic Sub.
Generally when using notes and chords from MM in Jazz... you don't use Maj/Min functional guidelines. Most applications are through Modal Interchange, using Modal harmonic concepts or for creating Blue Note organization.
Basic example... A7alt going to D-9... whatever chord. The D7alt is usually derived through Modal Interchange. And the Tritone or other dominant functional chord is Eb7#11... same collection of notes... just different reference or Root.
The different reference or Root is what helps organize the creation of different relationships with reference to the Target or the D-7 chord.
Another common modal application.... using the basic II V relationship in Jazz. Where each chord or both can function as the target... or each chord or both can actually become the function or organization for movement to a different Target,
So now you can use modal interchange or other modal applications to derive note collections, different subs, chord patterns, use of blue notes etc... and all with organization.
So The II- or V7 can be used for access to MM, example
B-7b9 E7b13 to A-maj 7................A mel min
B-7 E7alt to A-7... many options.. B dorian to Fmm to Amm (Martino minor conversion style)
And on and on...
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Thanks, again.
"So when you say you understand modes, do you mean the fingerings or the organization of relationships which can define a mode." -To me, a mode is a means of organizing the notes in the parent scale, if that makes sense.
Fingerings for modes are unimportant to me. When I "have" or "know" something, the appropriate notes "light up" for me. It takes time to get to this point with something that is new to me, and working whatever thru the cycle, and finding notes by their interval, in the next key/chord, really helps me with this.
I think what you are saying above, is that you play around with different means of changing the ii, and/or the V, thus ending up with a different target chord, or note, from what is on the original sheet. If in your A mel min example above, you mean that you are pulling, say, the B-7b9 from melodic minor, then you get the A-maj7 as target, rather than Cmaj7, if you are starting with a ii V I in C maj.
If that is the case, then what do you do with the next sequence in the progression? That originally had some functional connection to C maj? Do you just move on, because, as you said, mel min is non functional, in the sense that only root motion matters, or do you leverage some connection to resolve into the next sequence?
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Hey Stan... you could say I'm playing around with... different approach chords or chord patterns which could change the target chord. But you don't need to actually change the target chord. Part of playing jazz is having a few different applications of harmonic concepts or organization going on at the same time. Keeps the options of different possibilities of results open.
And another application is having... actual and implied targets or approach chord(s) chords also going on.
The somewhat difficult part, at least when you begin to perform or play in this style... is have organization going on. In the II V I example... I would think most could easily have two set of changes going on in their head at the same time.
So hearing both D-7 G7 Cma7 along with B-7b5 E7altered A-7... going on at same time would be the starting point. Then adding use of subs etc... after awhile they become instinctive, internalized, how ever you want to call the process.
Personally when I understand concepts... the hearing becomes fairly easy as compared to trying to memorize everything and then categorize.
So as to the moving on aspect... the organization is always in relationship to the entire tune. You have smaller micro approaches and targets which generally after some practice and understanding, become almost 2nd nature. When you play a scale of arpeggio you don't really need to figure them out each time after a while. Harmonic approaches are really the same thing, with just more details. They can all become Plug and Play, don't let the BS about not having feeling or being the real shit get in your way. Really just the opposite is what is generally going on.
Mel Min can be functional... different set of notes... just like modal concepts, define how function works. But like I said generally with jazz applications, MM is used more from Modal interchange applications.
And yes if by leverage your implying deceptive or extended cadences or conclusion formulas... yes all the time and the more organization within that compound chordal progression... generally the better it feels.
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Great answer, thanks.
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I've been working on using the altered scale at the 5 of 251 progressions. It doesn't come together until you can really hear those off notes, and that can take a long time if your ear training has been limited to diatonic.
I've noticed that Wes, Martino etc. use arpeggios within the altered scale. But they also play lines that are partly altered and partly mixolydian. Maybe it's better to think of what notes not to play on the 5 chord? Of course, when improvising we should forget all of this theory and just play what comes to us at the time.
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You can play just about anything over a V chord, but it sounds better if there's some kind of organization behind it. Arpeggios are great for that because you'll hear an arp as being coherent even if it diverges from the chord of the moment. Cycles are great too. Anything that makes your brain go, "Ah that makes sense" will be perceived as a tonality in its own right, even if its separate from the tonality of the tune. Originally Posted by bobby d
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