The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1
    I have a question, as all ways...LOL.
    How do bebop players can play all sorts of scales in just one spot in the neck?? they can stay lets say on on the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th fret, without doing too much changes and they play every scales within those frets....
    Any material available to print? video? charts? books?
    It would be cool to play like that....
    thanks,
    Hudson.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    There are 12 major scale fingerings. 9 melodic minor scale fingerings and 9 harmonic minor scale fingerings that do not involve position shifts. You can get these from the Berklee series books I. II and maybe book III as well by William G. Levitt. Keep in mind that some will involve stretching the index or pinky and sometimes both.
    There are also twelve fingerings for arrpegios found in these books as well. Again, not involving position changes.

    You may also want to ask them if they have books specific to just fingerings for scales and arrpegios. I haven't been there since the 70's. Alot has changed since then.
    Last edited by Patriots2006; 03-28-2011 at 02:29 PM.

  4. #3
    Baltar Hornbeek Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
    I have a question, as all ways...LOL.
    How do bebop players can play all sorts of scales in just one spot in the neck?? they can stay lets say on on the 3rd, 4th, 5th and 6th fret, without doing too much changes and they play every scales within those frets....
    Any material available to print? video? charts? books?
    It would be cool to play like that....
    thanks,
    Hudson.
    You don't need no charts, just work it out....don't be lazy

  5. #4
    Yeah, but for me to work at it I first need to know HOW it is done.
    It is not been lazy, if you don't have the material how are you going to study???
    Got my point?
    I'm not lazy, I practice very day...
    Cheers,
    Hudson.

  6. #5

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    It's simply a matter of learning all the scales in every position on the guitar. This is about to get intense:

    For example, this is the C major scale in 8th position:

    -----------------------------------------------------------8---
    ----------------------------------------------8--10--12-------
    --------------------------------------9--10--------------------
    -------------------------9--10--12----------------------------
    -------------8--10--12----------------------------------------
    -8--10--12----------------------------------------------------

    (1) (3) (4) (1) (3) (4) (2) (3) (4) (2) (3) (1) (3) (4) (1)

    The numbers in brackets tell you what finger to use in playing each note.

    When you play "in position", it indicates where your fingers will play the notes. If you're in 8th position, it means your first finger plays notes on the 8th fret, your middle finger plays notes on the 9th fret, your ring finger plays notes on the 10th fret, and your pinky plays notes on the 11th fret. In addition to this, sometimes you'll have to stretch to reach notes. Notice that, when playing the C major scale in 8th position (as per the example shown above), your pinky must stretch to the 12th fret to play certain notes. The rule for stretching is as follows: the pinky can stretch up one fret, and the index finger can stretch down one fret; however, the middle and ring fingers ONLY play notes in one fret location in any given position. So, in 8th position, the index finger plays notes at the 7th or 8th fret, and the pinky plays notes at the 11th or 12th fret. The middle finger only plays notes at the 9th fret, and the ring finger only plays notes at the 10th fret.

    Here's the C major scale played in 9th position:

    ------------------------------------------------------------8---
    ---------------------------------------------------10--12------
    --------------------------------------9--10--12----------------
    -------------------------9--10--12-----------------------------
    -------------8--10--12-----------------------------------------
    -8--10--12-----------------------------------------------------

    (1) (2) (4) (1) (2) (4) (1) (2) (4) (1) (2) (4) (2) (4) (1)

    Notice the slight differences between playing it in 9th position vs playing it in 8th position. On the bottom two strings, and on the top string, the index finger has to stretch down to the 8th fret.

    Do this in positions 2 through 13 on the guitar (you don't need to do it in first position, aka open position, because jazz guitarists almost never play open strings). You already know the notes of the C major scale, so just find the relevant fingerings (since, as you say, you're not lazy ). You'll find that 7 of these positions feel "easy", and 5 of these positions feel more difficult. In the key of C major, positions 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, 10 and 12 are the "easy" positions. For now you don't have to practice the more difficult positions, but you should go over their fingerings just to see how they feel. Eventually you'll want to tackle those too.

    One you've done this in every key, you'll see how you can play any given scale in the same position.

  7. #6

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    Bebop players aren't playing scales.

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
    Yeah, but for me to work at it I first need to know HOW it is done.
    Bebop players use arpeggios and chord tones as Mr. Beaumont mentioned. And tonal centers too.

    But take Jimmy Bruno for example...hard bop...he likes tonal center I guess from what he talks about.

    You need to learn your scales left to right AND right to left.

    A-Dorian:

    Starting on your index finger going right and up --->

    ---------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------
    ------------------------etc---------------------
    -----------------4-5-7--------------------------
    ------------5-7--------------------------------
    -----5-7-8--------------------------------------

    Starting with your pinkie going left and up <----

    ---------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------
    ---------------------------------------------
    ----------------2-4-5---------------------------
    ---------2-3-5----------------------------------
    ------5---------------------------------------

    Up and down, backwards & forwards.

    If you can do this then you can find your root note close by and go either way in a five fret area. Find roots on other strings not just 5 and 6.
    Last edited by Drumbler; 03-28-2011 at 04:11 PM.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Bebop players aren't playing scales.
    They didn't in their time... but modern jazzers that play bebop are definitely fluent in scale use. And since the OP is talking about "Bebop Guitarists", who didn't really exist during bebop's heyday, I'm assuming he was just talking about jazz guitar in general.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by max_power
    They didn't in their time... but modern jazzers that play bebop are definitely fluent in scale use. And since the OP is talking about "Bebop Guitarists", who didn't really exist during bebop's heyday, I'm assuming he was just talking about jazz guitar in general.
    Hmmm..I don't see where the OP mentions anyone specific, so I assumed he was talking about boppers--farlow, raney, etc.

    You sure can play bop with scales-- you can also pound in a nail with a wrench. If the OP wants to play bop, he might be better served looking at how the cats who originally played the music viewed the fretboard.

    I definitely don't want to open up another CST vs. Chord Tones bitchfest, but our OP here has another post rolling where he says he knows a bunch of scales but not how to use them...thes scales are hanging him up right now, and preventing him from making music--it's too much knowldge to process, and it's not even the most direct path to what he wants...

  11. #10

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    There are 2 1/3 octaves of the chromatic and one unison within 5 frets.
    Here's a chart I posted a few times before.
    The same procedure can be applied to any other scale type.

  12. #11

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    They developed great ears and internalized songs and practiced the hell out of common songs and chord changes.

    They studied everything at one point or another scales, arp's, key centers, guide-tone lines, chord subs you name it they worked on it. But remember back then there wasn't all these recordings and books and similar tools. They went to clubs and listened and tried to remember things they heard. They played a lot, read books about the greats and they played in different bands so they could learn things from the band leader they leave for another band. It was like and apprenticeship program.

    Bottom line they practiced constantly and learn to teach themselves. Need scale fingering they came up with their own. By working thru things you usually learn more than just the one thing you were trying to figure out. After you learn the basics it becomes all about self-teaching.

  13. #12

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    The best book I know about jazz apprenticeships is "Thinking In Jazz" by Paul Berliner. It's over 800 pages long, with nearly 200 pages of musical examples. Exhaustingly researched. Great stuff.

  14. #13
    Great response from all of you guys.
    Thanks for all the charts and lines,it a very complex topic and it can't be explained over this forum I know. Bur at least now I have a very good idea...
    I like to try different things at once, different techniques, different ideas read different books because I think music is not a linear concept let mw explain:
    You don't learn step 1 and go to step 2 and 3 and so on, instead you collect as many information about 1 or 2 or even 3 topics and you work on it, this way you are having a more open mind about things as opposed to go from A to B and then C.
    After all knowing is never too much, and if you want to be a good jazz musician you have to know a bit of every thing anyway...
    Right?
    Cheers,
    Hudson.

  15. #14

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    I hope I didn't come off as a jerk in my earlier post. It seems as if you know what you're doing as far as scales and technique, so that's why I say "just play." Just feel it, go for it, and let your soul come through. It's not about math and chemistry, but they are involved, as well as physics. The intangible is your individuality.

  16. #15

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    I believe most of the great players do not think scales as much as we think. I beilieve they think more about which chord is coming, not scales. Thinking at it this way means that you can certainly get everything you need in one position. For example if you know C7 is coming you can think about maybe C# and or D# at the same time staying in C mix scale without a second thought.

  17. #16
    Even Leavitt's Berkley books don't have you playing 12 postitions until the third book. That's a couple of years down the road for decent sight-readers/musicians. It's more like 5 positions for the first two books.

    Hmm... Pretty similar to a Bruno/CAGED kind of thing. Justinguitar.com is a good CAGED resource. Scales, arps, and chords all related.

    Keep things simple to start! Even if you only use five or so positions you're never more than a fret or two away from the next scale you need to pull from in a given position.

    Start with a simple tune and learn to solo from one position. Then add another and another... Rinse and repeat with new tunes gradually getting more difficult.

    Starting with 12 positions is crazy. Leavitt himself wouldn't do that to you. When you're bored with 5-7 positions because you're just smokin' and don't like having to shift one fret when the tonal center changes, then, explore more positions. The time spent learning 7 more positions could be better spent learning other things IMO, unless you already know the "other things".

    Keep it simple.

  18. #17

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    As a new guitarist myself (but not new to music) I feel the best way to learn something is to do it. Do it slowly, methodical, deliberate, etc. Eventually it all starts coming together (at least that has been my experience). But where to start can sometimes hang one up. I saw one thread mention Jimmy Bruno. I purchased the book "Six Essential Fingerings for the Jazz Guitarist" by Jimmy Bruno (Mel Bay Publications MB20001 $9.95). I have found this tool very useful in developing those finger/scale patterns in the very area of the fretboard that you mentioned. In Jimmy's introduction he states "...I have found these six fingerings for the major scales to be the most efficient. From these six fingerings all other scales are derived." I use these use along with the Jamey Aebersold Jazz books to help me in my pursuit to learning jazz AND guitar. There is, of course, much more to it than that but these are two tools that I use and find very helpful.

    Best of luck.

  19. #18
    the best resorce for scales that I find on youtube from this guy Pebber Brown:

    watch it and let me know what you guys think, im learning that system called Pebber Brown 14 pos system...
    I alread know well teh CAGED system.
    Im working on this system and then after my next step is learn arpeggios wthin those scale.
    peace,
    Hudson.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
    the best resorce for scales that I find on youtube from this guy Pebber Brown:

    watch it and let me know what you guys think, im learning that system called Pebber Brown 14 pos system...
    I alread know well teh CAGED system.
    Ugh. Not that there's anything wrong with that system, but... why do you need a "system"? Just learn the scales. A system can help you align the scales when you don't know the fretboard very well, but it's a crutch. If you already know CAGED then you know 5 of the possible 12 positions in which you can play scales. You're better off spending your time working on arpeggios as you said. Doing that will make playing jazz seem much, much simpler.

  21. #20

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    This thread made me think of an excersise to try out to help think about notes in one position instead of scales. Take any song and just play the roots of each chord, then play just thirds, then 5th, 7th's, then extensions of each chord. On the V7 chords play just the b7 then b5, #5, b9, #9. Then start trying two notes, then three et,. will forces you to think about notes instead of scales. Has anyone tried this?

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kman
    This thread made me think of an excersise to try out to help think about notes in one position instead of scales. Take any song and just play the roots of each chord, then play just thirds, then 5th, 7th's, then extensions of each chord. On the V7 chords play just the b7 then b5, #5, b9, #9. Then start trying two notes, then three et,. will forces you to think about notes instead of scales. Has anyone tried this?
    I just started doing this recently. Great exercise!!! It simplifies things while increasing your understanding of how chords and lines connect. Also, if you say each note out loud as you play, that's even better...by the way...do this too as you practise scales & arps...

  23. #22

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    To help answer the OP's question, I'd take these ideas a step further:

    - Choose a song you want to play
    - Figure out how to play the changes in one position (as much as possible)
    - Figure out how to play the melody in one position
    - From the melody, start looking at other notes you want to use for improvising
    - Rinse and repeat

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
    I have a question, as all ways...LOL.
    How do bebop players can play all sorts of scales in just one spot in the neck??

    Playing in one position usually involves stretching or shifting up or down one fret, to access all chromatics. It's a must. I can't imagine sightreading without using that approach.

    When I work out of one position, I'm using a six fret section of neck, as I've explained. One position on the neck that uses six frets gives you access to 30 different notes. 2 1/2 octaves under your fingers in one position. That's a pretty impressive range to cover, considering a piano has 88 notes.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kman
    This thread made me think of an excersise to try out to help think about notes in one position instead of scales. Take any song and just play the roots of each chord, then play just thirds, then 5th, 7th's, then extensions of each chord. On the V7 chords play just the b7 then b5, #5, b9, #9. Then start trying two notes, then three et,. will forces you to think about notes instead of scales. Has anyone tried this?
    Yes. I generally did it playing diads instead of single notes. Drawing from modal extensions, playing 2 note combinations of the 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 related to each chord.

    I used it more as an ear training exercise but it certainly can help train the mind and fingers around intervals and chord tones as well.

  26. #25
    Can I be honest with you all??? I am working on the 14 position system developed by Pebber Brown but some time I find it too overwhelming.....
    What if I just MASTER the CAGED system in major, melodic minor and harmonic minor?
    Do you think I will be better off?? As far as jazz playing?
    And what would come after ?? Aperggios with in those scales????
    I'm really changing my mind...