How Do Bebop Players Do It?

[Hudsontoronto]

I'm doing that on 2 songs autumn leaves in Em the scales that I have been using are G major and e melodic minor and HM... For fly me to the moon in Cmajor I use Gmajor and C major, but realized now that they are only scales... I might have waisted my time don't know....
I should take lessons, learning on ir own is tough...
But I can't afford lessons right now..
Thanks for all replys..
God bless you all.
Cheers.

[SwingSwangSwung]

imo - the answer lies somewhere in between - for all of the above (chords, scales, arpeggios).

1. "a handful or few" is insufficient (for an advanced/pro player)

2. "knowing all the exhaustive possibilities" is unnecessary for the player (doesnt hurt the techer so much though )

3. a middle ground is sufficient for the pro player.

So at some point do you suggest a player stop learning new ways to get around the fretboard as they would reach the point where they pass from middle ground and into the zone of knowing too much? If a guy has played for decades and adds a little at a time, the amount of ideas and patterns he has accumulated may seem like an exhaustive amount of possibilities to someone who has only been playing a few years.

I studied ancient greek in college and for one test I had over 80 pages of notes. I went to this very old & scholarly professor and asked him what I should concentrate on for the test since I had so much material. "Don't ask me how little you should learn. Learn all that you can." I wasn't amused with his answer, but as I look back on it, I respect the guy. Digging into a topic and knowing it inside out is a respectable goal. Trying to do it all in 2 or 3 years may be like trying to eat an entire elephant in a week. But if you have decades to play, one should hopefully add more and more possibilities to the tool kit as the decades go by.

I have about 400 two octave scale, mode, and arpeggio fingerings that I've played almost daily for over 20 years (it takes about 45 minutes to go through them all - I pick a different key each day). Do I use them when playing a gig? No - not consciously. Do I think about them when playing a gig? No. Has engrafting them into my knowledge of the fretboard made me a better player. I think so. Now when I take a solo and I'm thinking of a Bb7 arpeggio, I don't think of a bunch of patterns. Instead I just see those notes laying all over the neck - as roots, 3rds, 5ths, 7ths - with all kinds of options about where I can go. Remembering these 400 fingerings seemed like a daunting task when I first tackled it. But now it seems simple - they're just there and seem obvious.

I'll also swim against the current here and say I find modes useful. Take for example the G Dorian mode. I see it as an arpeggio of Gm....

G - root
A - 9th
Bb - 3rd
C - 11th
D - 5th
E - 13th
F - 7th

I very rarely think about modes when I play a gig, but practicing them has been helpful to me as it reinforces the scale they are nested within and the chord tones within them. I just look at it as playing the scale inside out and outside in.

When I gig, I tend to turn my brain off and just play what seems simple and easy. The stuff that seems simple and easy to me today, would have seemed enormously complex to me 20 years ago. Its more important to feel it than to think it, to connect and LISTEN, and to remember that less is more (leave some space).

I love Einstein's quote, “Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius-and a lot of courage-to move in the opposite direction.” But you have to remember he had a fare amount of math and physics under his belt before he could do that. Chances are none of us are Einsteins, but the same principle applies to the complexity of playing jazz guitar. If you look at the amount of material an excellent chef, accountant, network engineer, mechanic, doctor, farmer, financial expert, carpenter, etc. have to master in order to navigate their worlds with minimal effort and maximum efficiency, there is a significant amount of information which must be mastered. Why would the same not hold true for music?

I'm not claiming to be a great jazz guitarist, but learning the fretboard has been helpful to me in all the styles of music I enjoy playing. We each have our own approach and consequently a unique sound. What works for you may not work for me, and visa versa. That's the beauty of music. It would be really boring if we all sounded the same. Viva la difference. Maybe I'm far less gifted than the average player and thus have to approach guitar playing with more work and thought than the rest of you? Regardless, I do think it is good and healthy to continue learning new things your entire life - and thus morph into an old man who knows a respectable amount of information.

My day job for the past 25 years has been technology. I've had to read so many books filled with all sort of technical minutia. Massive amounts of detailed material I've learned in that field over the years is now obsolete. Tech platforms that I spent years mastering are now no longer in use. I see that use of brain power as ultimately wasted effort - studying so hard to learn facts that are of temporary value. Music however is timeless. I love the fact that I learned SITTING ON THE DOCK OF THE BAY forty years ago and I still play it on gigs today. I wish I could have applied all the energy, time, and brain space I devoted to music instead of technology as I'd know quite a bit more about guitar than I do now.

One thing I love about music, guitar, and jazz is that you can study it diligently for 80 years and never exhaust the possibilities.

Or you can be the next Chuck Berry and make a living off one lick and a 1-4-5 progression. Again, to each his own.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

[randalljazz]

This thread made me think of an excersise to try out to help think about notes in one position instead of scales. Take any song and just play the roots of each chord, then play just thirds, then 5th, 7th's, then extensions of each chord. On the V7 chords play just the b7 then b5, #5, b9, #9. Then start trying two notes, then three et,. will forces you to think about notes instead of scales. Has anyone tried this?

something similar i've been spending much time on lately. section of a tune (8 measures perhaps, depending on the complexity of the chords), loop in BIAB, play R-3, then 3-5, 5-7. start s-l-o-w. work in six sections of the fingerboard (1st pos, lower strings; 4-5th position, lower strings; 7-8th position lower strings; 7-8th position, upper strings; 4-5th position, upper strings; 1st position, upper strings). then increase tempo (by 10 or so), repeat. add chromatics to taste. combine sections of the tune. change the 'style' (bossa this, swing that, samba, whatever).

[fumblefingers]

So at some point do you suggest a player stop learning new ways to get around the fretboard as they would reach the point where they pass from middle ground and into the zone of knowing too much? If a guy has played for decades and adds a little at a time, the amount of ideas and patterns he has accumulated may seem like an exhaustive amount of possibilities to someone who has only been playing a few years.

I studied ancient greek in college and for one test I had over 80 pages of notes. I went to this very old & scholarly professor and asked him what I should concentrate on for the test since I had so much material. "Don't ask me how little you should learn. Learn all that you can." I wasn't amused with his answer, but as I look back on it, I respect the guy. Digging into a topic and knowing it inside out is a respectable goal. Trying to do it all in 2 or 3 years may be like trying to eat an entire elephant in a week. But if you have decades to play, one should hopefully add more and more possibilities to the tool kit as the decades go by.

I have about 400 two octave scale, mode, and arpeggio fingerings that I've played almost daily for over 20 years (it takes about 45 minutes to go through them all - I pick a different key each day). Do I use them when playing a gig? No - not consciously. Do I think about them when playing a gig? No. Has engrafting them into my knowledge of the fretboard made me a better player. I think so. Now when I take a solo and I'm thinking of a Bb7 arpeggio, I don't think of a bunch of patterns. Instead I just see those notes laying all over the neck - as roots, 3rds, 5ths, 7ths - with all kinds of options about where I can go. Remembering these 400 fingerings seemed like a daunting task when I first tackled it. But now it seems simple - they're just there and seem obvious.

I'll also swim against the current here and say I find modes useful. Take for example the G Dorian mode. I see it as an arpeggio of Gm....

G - root
A - 9th
Bb - 3rd
C - 11th
D - 5th
E - 13th
F - 7th

I very rarely think about modes when I play a gig, but practicing them has been helpful to me as it reinforces the scale they are nested within and the chord tones within them. I just look at it as playing the scale inside out and outside in.

When I gig, I tend to turn my brain off and just play what seems simple and easy. The stuff that seems simple and easy to me today, would have seemed enormously complex to me 20 years ago. Its more important to feel it than to think it, to connect and LISTEN, and to remember that less is more (leave some space).

I love Einstein's quote, “Any fool can make things bigger, more complex, and more violent. It takes a touch of genius-and a lot of courage-to move in the opposite direction.” But you have to remember he had a fare amount of math and physics under his belt before he could do that. Chances are none of us are Einsteins, but the same principle applies to the complexity of playing jazz guitar. If you look at the amount of material an excellent chef, accountant, network engineer, mechanic, doctor, farmer, financial expert, carpenter, etc. have to master in order to navigate their worlds with minimal effort and maximum efficiency, there is a significant amount of information which must be mastered. Why would the same not hold true for music?

I'm not claiming to be a great jazz guitarist, but learning the fretboard has been helpful to me in all the styles of music I enjoy playing. We each have our own approach and consequently a unique sound. What works for you may not work for me, and visa versa. That's the beauty of music. It would be really boring if we all sounded the same. Viva la difference. Maybe I'm far less gifted than the average player and thus have to approach guitar playing with more work and thought than the rest of you? Regardless, I do think it is good and healthy to continue learning new things your entire life - and thus morph into an old man who knows a respectable amount of information.

My day job for the past 25 years has been technology. I've had to read so many books filled with all sort of technical minutia. Massive amounts of detailed material I've learned in that field over the years is now obsolete. Tech platforms that I spent years mastering are now no longer in use. I see that use of brain power as ultimately wasted effort - studying so hard to learn facts that are of temporary value. Music however is timeless. I love the fact that I learned SITTING ON THE DOCK OF THE BAY forty years ago and I still play it on gigs today. I wish I could have applied all the energy, time, and brain space I devoted to music instead of technology as I'd know quite a bit more about guitar than I do now.

One thing I love about music, guitar, and jazz is that you can study it diligently for 80 years and never exhaust the possibilities.

Or you can be the next Chuck Berry and make a living off one lick and a 1-4-5 progression. Again, to each his own.

I'll get off my soapbox now.

i'm not criticizing the "completist's" approach. just saying that one can survive and even thrive with less. (many, many, great players have done so. but then you know that already). if this approach keeps you in your zone then i would be loathe to advise you to let it go.

here's one simple example for you to consider: do you think that you could do the full blown jazz guitar job, with regard to your use of 3 particular arpeggios that is, relying on only seven (7) one-octave fingerings each for maj7, mi7 and dom7 arpeggios? (2 fingerings each from starting strings 6,5, and 4, and one fingering from starting string 3.)

i went thru the 12 fingering Leavitt thing BTW. at one time i thought it was the holy grail. then i decided that all that stretching was unnecessary in the lower positions at best, and injury risking at worse. watching the best jazz guitar players in history (and their left hands) only reinforced my point of view on this. a few of the Leavitt stretch fingerings are fine in the higher positions, but not all. same opinion goes for 3 notes per string BTW. all IMO, of course.

[JohnRoss]

Its the most sterile dull book you can possibly read... I find Berklee press stuff to be really dull.

Yes, I agree, it's functional, not inspirational. But it's very functional. CAGED, which I knew nothing about a few months ago and have been investigating a little, is easier for guitarists, it seems, and I'm glad I found about it (through this forum, more or less) because it lets you use the fingerings and whatnot you always used, it's more guitaristic - Segovia scales for example are essentially CAGED, most of the classical stuff, Sor, Aguado, is easy to understand in CAGED terms. But the Berklee stuff is designed to turn you into a pro musician, not just a jazz musician, you can't just dismiss it. Lots of it doesn't work for me, especially as I'm basically a nylon-string player these days, but I have no regrets about trying to make it work. I do think it needs a hell of a lot of dedication and a near infinite amount of supplementary material.

It's all a matter of horses for courses - there's a parallel thread going on with a lad who doubted the merits of the Mickey Baker method, which is still the best option I know if you want to get some sort of jazz vocabulary relatively quickly. My summary, FWIW (which isn't much):

quick and superficial - Mickey Baker;
nice and guitaristic - CAGED;
gonna-make-a-living-out-of-this-if-it-kills-me - Berklee (plus an awful lot of other stuff).

[Hudsontoronto]

So here is the deal guys; I know learning is endless and also know that to sound nice you don't need a lot of knowledge... Sort of.
I know the CAGED system very well but I need to know when to use it...
Is it some thing that will cone with time??? I will have to figure out by myself ?
Or should I learn licks too...
I'm trying to get as much as suggestions as possible, because I can't afford lesson until may hopefully.
Thanks again guys...
God bless you all.

[billkath]

The most insightful video I ever watched was this-it may help answer your question

[fumblefingers]

My DNA is such that I enjoy digging into every little corner I can find, and it seems logical to me to expand one's knowledge of the fretboard as the years go by. If your DNA is different, I think we can still have a really good time jamming on tunes! I not been to a gig yet where I was asked how many fingerings I knew or didn't know - and I've never really wondered that about other players. I know how much I don't know and enjoy learning from other musicians.

lord knows i believe in life long learning too. and i believe that i have a similar jazz guitar technique world view to yours. with all due respect however, i don't think you took my question very seriously.

i haven't bought your book but i have the impression that you take a similar or same approach as Leavitt's. that is, 12 fingerings for the diatonic scales - and - all the arpeggio fingerings that these fingerings yield (they are "embedded" as you like to say). that system would yield 15 fingerings for the maj 7 arpeggio from starting strings 6, 5, and 4, all told, and 2 from starting string 3, right?

the question is - are those extra fingerings "valuable"?
i say, no.

further, are they awkward and in fact more likely to cause the player to "muff" some notes?
i say, yes.

every other part of Leavitt's method (beyond his fingering system) is tops with me (fwiw )

[SwingSwangSwung]

lord knows i believe in life long learning too. and i believe that i have a similar jazz guitar technique world view to yours. with all due respect however, i don't think you took my question very seriously.

i haven't bought your book but i have the impression that you take a similar or same approach as Leavitt's. that is, 12 fingerings for the diatonic scales - and - all the arpeggio fingerings that these fingerings yield (they are "embedded" as you like to say). that system would yield 15 fingerings for the maj 7 arpeggio from starting strings 6, 5, and 4, all told, and 2 from starting string 3, right?

the question is - are those extra fingerings "valuable"?
i say, no.

further, are they awkward and in fact more likely to cause the player to "muff" some notes?
i say, yes.

every other part of Leavitt's method (beyond his fingering system) is tops with me (fwiw )

First let me try to address your initial question about doing a full blown jazz guitar gig with the number of fingerings you suggested. The reason its a bit tough for me to answer is that I really don't consciously think about fingering patterns at a gig - I really tend to see chord tones, use approach notes, and variations of licks. I'm sure I use scale fingerings, but playing so many of them for so long, they kind of all blur together. Does that make sense? I might use a few notes from one pattern and then shift to a few notes from another pattern.

I've not yet studied the Levitt books. I was introduced the concept - which sounds very similar to Levitt's - by Jack Petersen at North Texas. Jack started the guitar program at Berklee way back in the the 60's and I'm not sure who came up with that system. Anyway, from what you've described it may be a very similar method to the one I practice. But I don't have 15 fingerings - just 12, and none which start on the 3rd string. The fingerings I use start at the following positions with the 2nd and 3rd fingers not changing position and the 1st and 4th strings extending when necessary:

6th string/1st finger
6th string/1st finger extended
6th string/2nd finger
6th string/3rd finger
6th string/4th finger
5th string/1st finger
5th string/1st finger extended
5th string/2nd finger
5th string/3rd finger
5th string/4th finger
4th string/1st finger
4th string/1st finger extended

So if that is what you are talking about, then let me try to address your other points.

the question is - are those extra fingerings "valuable"?

Well, yes and no. First, no I don't use all these fingerings when I'm improvising at a gig. So no they are not useful in that sense. However, when I practice them it reinforces in my mind where things are at on the fretboard. I play thru them all in a different key each day, and that has helped to make keys that were previously unfriendly to me a bit more friendly, and areas of the fretboard which used to seem like no-man's-land to me have now become familiar neighborhood streets. Also, playing all these patterns has helped me to relax and simplify the fretboard rather than complicating it. I guess I'm trying to say that playing all these patterns has helped my navigation of the fretboard and helped me to claim some previously desolate real estate on the neck of my guitar. AND, like I stated previously, my DNA is such that I like to dig down into details.

are they awkward and in fact more likely to cause the player to "muff" some notes?

I'll never forget something a jazz guitarist told me when I was just learning. He said, "If you practice something enough - no matter how tough it initially seems - it will become as easy as an open Em chord."

I've had different seasons in my life - some years I was able to practice 6 - 8 hours a day and gig 5 - 6 nights a week, and some seasons I was lucky to get a couple hours of practice in per month. Back in the total-guitar-immersion era, I spent about 2 hours a day on scales and arpeggios and the rest of the time learning tunes, solos, jamming, etc. I could fly around on these fingerings pretty easily back then.

In the season of life I'm in now, I don't have the chops I had back then. Instead of playing these patterns at 120 bpm, I play them in SLOW MOTION with my hands TOTALLY RELAXED aiming for clarity of every note and good angles on my fingers. I find playing these things slowly seems to have more benefit than they did ripping thru them at 8 notes/second back in the day. I wish I had practiced in slow motion back then! I've found that playing in slow motion with hands totally relaxed really does wonders for my technique - and speed. With patience and perseverance, I'm confident most players could manage to get thru these and play all the notes clearly.

every other part of Leavitt's method (beyond his fingering system) is tops with me

The books seem fairly famous, but again I've not yet purchased them. Not out of any arrogance - but rather Jack Petersen gave us all a lifetime of mountains to climb back at North Texas and I figure once I have an handle on what he taught us, I'll take a look at Levitt's book.

I do want to add that I also go thru 3 octave scales and arpeggios as well as a bunch of two octave scales that DO change position.

I know I sound like some sort of scale freak, but it really isn't the focus of my playing. My biggest enjoyment comes from learning new tunes.

I hope that answers you. I do respect where you are coming from. I spent this afternoon listening to Wes Montgomery at work. Wow, he was so tasty with his phrasing. Learning more and more scale fingerings is not going to make any of us sound like Wes. But for ME, learning my way around the fretboard has been useful in focusing more on being tasty and less on thinking about fingerings. For YOU, learning more fingerings may be a hindrance. With jazz the end justifies the means.

AND, rereading this thread I apologize if I came across as snarky when I asked if there was a point at which a guitarist should stop learning. I did not mean to do so. Darn this internet and the lack of tone of voice.

I've enjoyed the dialogue as it makes me think and re-think about my approach to trying to play this instrument!

[Hudsontoronto]

Great conversation guys, you guys are definitively pros...
Swingswangswung what do you think of the pebberbrown 14 position system?? Look it up on YouTube... Pebber Brown 14 position system.
Just so you know I stoped working on this system 2 weeks ago, and I am only using the CAGED system which I know very well in major, especially Gmajor. Still learning the CAGED in MM and HM...
So I'm working on that and working on tunes....
Now that I'm back to work " construction" " tough" I only have 1 hour per day to practice.
Any tip would be very generous from you.
Thanks,
God bless you.

[Patriots2006]

"How do bebop players play all sorts of scales in just one spot in the neck??"
Wasn't this your original question? In order to play every scale in one position you would have to be able to play your scales in twelve different positions on the neck. This way no matter what position you were playing in you could play any scale without a position shift. That is why I referred the Berklee books to you. As far as being dull. What makes the cage system any more interesting? You are still learning scale fingerings. Just not as many forms.

[fumblefingers]

its just my opinion but,

i think this notion of playing 12 keys in one position (as opposed to 12 keys in one "area") is highly overrated.

i agree that the general concept is critical, but believe that a one fret shift above or below the position in question is preferred, especially in the mid and lower positions of the fretboard.

i have observed that the stretching of the first - but especially the fourth finger - is more likely to produce weaker fretting, and hence muffled/less clear articulation. the 4th finger in particular has a smaller tip which is bad enough, but when you stretch it a good distance you are required to fret the note with the 4th fingertip at an angle. that makes it even weaker.

[SwingSwangSwung]

Great conversation guys, you guys are definitively pros...
Swingswangswung what do you think of the pebberbrown 14 position system?? Look it up on YouTube... Pebber Brown 14 position system.
Just so you know I stoped working on this system 2 weeks ago, and I am only using the CAGED system which I know very well in major, especially Gmajor. Still learning the CAGED in MM and HM...
So I'm working on that and working on tunes....
Now that I'm back to work " construction" " tough" I only have 1 hour per day to practice.
Any tip would be very generous from you.
Thanks,
God bless you.

Hey Hudsontoronto, I'd not seen pebberbrown's system before. There is some overlap between his approach and mine, and some differences. It looks like a very thorough system. I think the approach I was taught may be a little easier to learn and ultimately arrive at the same place as pebberbrowns. He is using position shifts, while the 12 fingerings I use do not.

However, as I mentioned previously I stick to the positions when practicing, but when I'm actually playing I will change the fingerings and positions as seems fit.

As far as advice goes, I think its a good thing to sit back and form a strategy about your practicing. I'd suggest taking some simple tunes, learn the head and the changes. Then analyze the chord changes to see what keys are used in the song. Then have an arpeggio and/or scale pattern or two that works over each chord. Record the chord changes at a VERY slow tempo and practice playing over those changes in slow motion. Try singing or scatting a solo over the changes and then figure out how to play what you sang on the guitar - you'll get some good phrasing that way. After you get comfortable playing over the changes at this very slow tempo, then speed it up a bit and repeat until you are at performance tempo.

Once you have song #1 down, I'd move on to song #2 and follow the same process. Then on to song #3.

As you move along learning more and more songs, you're going to be picking up ideas (from study, from lessons, from other players, or just inspiration) that you can add to your tool bag and use on these songs. The more you learn, the easier it gets to add more things. If you just learn one lick, or concept, or new fingering pattern a week, in a couple of years you will have a sizable vocabulary on your guitar.

Remember, the goal is to make music, not play scales and arpeggios. I'd really focus on SONGS. Remember as you are soloing, part of your brain should be keeping track of what chords are going by in the song - and feeling the original melody - and part of your brain should be pulling out things that will work on those chords.

I think its healthy for us all to remember that jazz is about communication and having something to say with the music, more than its a "hey! watch this!" guitar talent show.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think it's important to point out in all of the CAGED vs more position discussion that in Leavitt's books he begins with 5 positions. As to the value of learning an additional 7 or more fingerings, I think it's more a matter of priorities. If you are learning 12 positions of scales, but you haven't learned any solos, can't comp tunes well and such, then maybe the additional 7 fingerings aren't what you should be focusing on.

If you know your stuff otherwise, I don't see the detriment in learning additional ways of fingering things. The stretch fingerings give you a lot of muscle-memory reference for playing notes or lines that don't work well with certain CAGED fingerings.

[JohnRoss]

The stretch fingerings give you a lot of muscle-memory reference for playing notes or lines that don't work well with certain CAGED fingerings.

I absolutely agree. It works the other way around, though, as well. The Berklee system includes things that are not just counterintuitive on the guitar, but can actually be a hindrance to musicality, viz.: a) always play strictly in position, b) always use the same finger for the same fret in a given position, c) stretch with 1 and 4 only, never 2 or 3, d) roll, don't 'jump' fingers, except to change position, e) never stretch a fretting finger out of position, always come back into position if a stretched finger has to be used for another note. All these fingering principles are contradicted in classical guitar music, for example. In short, learning the Berklee system gives you a lot of scope and in-depth knowledge of the fretboard, but I think the time comes when you can benefit from unlearning a lot of it. Which inevitably makes you think that perhaps you shouldn't have dedicated quite so much effort to learning it so thoroughly.

[fumblefingers]

I absolutely agree. It works the other way around, though, as well. The Berklee system includes things that are not just counterintuitive on the guitar, but can actually be a hindrance to musicality, viz.: a) always play strictly in position, b) always use the same finger for the same fret in a given position, c) stretch with 1 and 4 only, never 2 or 3, d) roll, don't 'jump' fingers, except to change position, e) never stretch a fretting finger out of position, always come back into position if a stretched finger has to be used for another note. All these fingering principles are contradicted in classical guitar music, for example. In short, learning the Berklee system gives you a lot of scope and in-depth knowledge of the fretboard, but I think the time comes when you can benefit from unlearning a lot of it. Which inevitably makes you think that perhaps you shouldn't have dedicated quite so much effort to learning it so thoroughly.

that's pretty close to where "i'm at". my main objection is the stretching in lower positions however.

Leavitt was more of a studio player than a hard core jazzer as far as i understand. he was known more for that, and his contribution to "jazz enabling" guitar pedagogy. on the latter he was second to none, as far as i'm aware. but his method alone was/is NOT a compolete jazz guitar method. it assumes university classes and private instruction in tunes, improv, styles, and ensembles. 8 semesters worth.

one of the things that i would point out is that i learned his system in my early twenties. i stretched my fingers/knuckles with abandon on my (25.5" scale length) L5, in all positions with noooo problems.

when i got to my forties, i noticed significant discomfort with all that stretching, especially below the 5th position.

i'm not important and there is no reason for anybody to listen to me. nevertheless i would advise anyone - take excellent care of your hands!

[matt.guitarteacher]

I absolutely agree. It works the other way around, though, as well. The Berklee system includes things that are not just counterintuitive on the guitar, but can actually be a hindrance to musicality,

I agree with what you're saying there too. I originally learned scales with shifts, then, a few years ago did a book-and-a-half of leavitt. I'm always amazed with how muscle memory works. Even without really practicing either one I can use whatever I feel like using. I think that's why you don't see a lot of players using stretches all of the time, but at a certain point it becomes really helpful to know different fingering options.

To the beginner I would that you don't really have to stress about which one you use. You can always do it another way later. Learning one fingering doesn't "replace" another.

[fumblefingers]

I think it's important to point out in all of the CAGED vs more position discussion that in Leavitt's books he begins with 5 positions. As to the value of learning an additional 7 or more fingerings, I think it's more a matter of priorities. If you are learning 12 positions of scales, but you haven't learned any solos, can't comp tunes well and such, then maybe the additional 7 fingerings aren't what you should be focusing on.

If you know your stuff otherwise, I don't see the detriment in learning additional ways of fingering things. The stretch fingerings give you a lot of muscle-memory reference for playing notes or lines that don't work well with certain CAGED fingerings.

i don't disagree with your post. however i play Leavitt's stuff without stretches, where he uses stretches. it forces me to MOVE.

one of the things you will notice when watching the best traditional jazz guitar players - the ones that play tunes with numerous changes - is that their left hands are NOT freezing in one position even if they are playing in one "area". they move, move, move. that is, they shift a lot. some examples below, i may add others.

and if you play even basic classical guitar studies (the first 10 by Carcassi for example), you will notice that you are shifting your ass off.

so i would advise students - dont fear the shift! especially if its just 1 fret.

[jzucker]

The best book I know about jazz apprenticeships is "Thinking In Jazz" by Paul Berliner. It's over 800 pages long, with nearly 200 pages of musical examples. Exhaustingly researched. Great stuff.

i dunno. If you had to read an 800 page book in order to learn to play jazz I'll bet few of our heros would have become great jazz players.

What Sandole and Martino stressed in my lessons with them was to learn to play every line from any finger of any string. Of course you have to have lines to begin with so you should transcribe everything you can get your hands on. Learn every wes solo you can, every joe pass solo you can. Copy Bird and Lee Morgan and Clifford Brown and Coltrane, etc.

Don't get me wrong...I have a 300 page guitar book myself but IMO, we've gotten too far away from the origins of jazz which is that it's a folk music. Learn it by experiencing it from the masters. That's my biggest lesson.

Sure you need to learn you scales and arpeggios but before studying an 800 page book, be able to play Wes' Naptown Blues, D Natural Blues, Canadian Sunset, Round Midnight and Martino's Just Friends and Benson's Billie's Bounce. That's the equivalent of a 1000 page book!

[Hudsontoronto]

Thank you guys.
I think I'm on the right path... I know caged major, maj pentatonics, MM and 1 HMposition... And I'm working on songs and comp songs... After I learn some songs " 20 or 30" I will go back to learn new scales...
Now the original question was: how to play all 12 keys of scales in one area on the neck?
And please tell me that my daily practice routine is good.... Lol.
Thanks.

[fumblefingers]

Thank you guys.
I think I'm on the right path... I know caged major, maj pentatonics, MM and 1 HMposition... And I'm working on songs and comp songs... After I learn some songs " 20 or 30" I will go back to learn new scales...
Now the original question was: how to play all 12 keys of scales in one area on the neck?
And please tell me that my daily practice routine is good.... Lol.
Thanks.

if you know the 5 caged patterns you should be able to do this now. try this:

2nd position: play the c major scale starting on the 5th string, 3rd fret, with the 2nd finger. play it all the way up to A on the 1rst string, then all the way down to G on the 6th string, then back to C on the 5th.

can you do that much?

[JohnRoss]

Now the original question was: how to play all 12 keys of scales in one area on the neck?

If you work it out for yourself, like this, what you end up with is actually the Berklee fingerings:
Go to position V. Play a scale of F as the CAGED C form, i.e., the guitarist's middle C (really C below middle C) is on the 8th fret of the 6th string. This scale involves no stretches and all the frets fall conveniently under your fingers:

String 5 - F (8th fret, LH finger 4)
String 4 - G (LH finger 1) A (3) Bb (4)
String 3 - C (1) D (3)
String 2 - E (1) F (2) G (4)
String 1 - A (1) Bb (2) C (4)

Run it back down to the first F, then
String 5 - E (3) D (1)
String 6 - C (4) Bb (2) A (1)

and run that back up to the F again. Now play a scale of Bb, CAGED E shape, from your Bb on the 4th string. You need to change the E naturals to Eb's, which you find on the fifth string, sixth fret (2nd finger) and on the 3rd string, 8th fret (4th finger). Again, there are no stretches.

Now play a scale of Eb, to do which you have to change your A naturals to Ab's. You find these on the 4th string, 6th fret (2nd finger) and on the 1st and 6th strings at the 4th fret. To reach those two notes, you have to stretch with your first finger - if you can get them without moving your hand out of position, good, if you can't, it doesn't matter.

Keep going like that, through the cycle of fourths. Every new key has an extra flat, and every new key involves a new flat note and a new first finger stretch. The next couple of keys and their new flat notes are these:
Ab - Db
Db - Gb

Now go back and look at your scale of F, and work out how to play a scale of C. This time, you're changing key in the opposite direction, in the cycle of fifths, and instead of flattening notes, you have to sharpen your Bb to a B
natural. And instead of stretching your first finger, you stretch your fourth finger in the opposite direction. You find B naturals at the 7th fret of the 1st and 6th strings at the 7th fret, 3rd finger, no problem, but you need to play one on the fourth string at the 9th fret. Again, if you can do it while keeping your hand in position, great, if you can't it doesn't matter for the moment.

And again, keep going. Every new key in this direction requires a new sharp (or an 'unflattened' flat, which is the same thing) and a new fourth finger stretch. The next couple of keys and their new notes are these:
G - F#
D - C#
A - G#

Now when you come to play the next flat keys (Gb, Cb) and the next sharp keys (E, B), you find that you have completed the cycle of major keys, Cb and B are enharmonically the same. You will probably also find that your scales require both kinds of stretch, first and fourth fingers, and that you have choices as to which to use (the same applies to Gb / F# and, in this position, E or Fb). This is a matter of context and your preferences.

Now you have all the major keys, you also have all the natural minor scales. So it should be more or less straightforward to work out the relevant melodic minor and harmonic minor scales.

Are all these fingerings useful? Yes and no. You'll need to know them all to become a 'compleat' guitarist, sooner or later, and sooner or later, they'll all come in handy. But there is no doubt they are not all equally useful, so you don't want to give this too much priority.

[Hudsontoronto]

I was referring to scale and arpeggio fingerings. A little over 2 octaves with each one. From the starting point, you play up to the highest note you can reach without changing position, then back down the lowest note you can reach without changing position, then back to the starting point.

your book is what i am talking about ......you play all scales in one region on the neck.....thats genius man, I dont have money to buy your book now but I ill by it one day.....hopefully soon

[JohnRoss]

sorry I dont undertand your notation.....LH ?? finger 4?? what is LH ?

LH = Left Hand.
Finger 4 = the pinkie of your left hand
Finger 1 = index finger
2 = middle finger
3 = ring finger

[guelda]

Hi all,

interesting discussion, and everyone expresses his feelings with clear explaination, I like this forum

My two cents :

I had a teacher who teached in Berklee (I'm in France) and got me into the Berklee fingering system. He told me that no one plays in one position and using this system, but it is really worth working those fingerings because it gets your fingers able to "fall naturally" when staying in one position. By "fall naturally" I mean that after working those fingerings for a while, your ears and fingers (well... your brain !) acquire habits and you don't have to think "where do I put my finger to get this sound ?". It has the advantage of getting you used to play each degree with each fingers, pretty close from the Martino way mentioned.

I worked several types of scale fingerings (3-notes per string, Berklee, Jimmy Bruno, going up the neck, going down the neck, etc.) and I found each one has something you can learn about. But IMO you should practice each one without too much thinking because after some years you will have digest all that and retain the fingerings that work for you, depending on your fingers, your way to view the fingerboard (which I think is personal, even if you learned different systems...).


And I totally agree with Mr. Beaumont and others who say : learn the arpeggios first. It may depend on the style you want to play, but for swing, gypsy swing and bebop, arpeggios are the most important part.

peace
Guelda