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Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
Whoa everybody. lets get back to the basics of the question.
1. Yes, starting with a 4-5 pattern fingering "system" like CAGED is easier to do than starting with a 7, 9 or 12 pattern fingering system. So yes, learn CAGED, or Bruno's six shapes before considering a move to a more exhaustive system. Corey Christiansen has some nice fingerings at Mel Bay too. One of these 3 is fine.
2. Learn scales first (slightly) and arpeggios second. Not the other way around please. Scales yield chords and arpeggios, not the other way around (or at least that's a very useful way to think about it. i.e. we harmonize scales). What do I mean by "slightly"? - a few weeks, not longer.
3. Learn to play your chosen system (CAGED for example) "up the neck" one full fingering position at a time in the key of C, then play it all the way around the circle of fifths. For example, play the C major scale across all six strings starting on C and ending on C for each pattern. 2nd position, 5th, 7th, 9th, 12th. Then move to F major in the open or 2nd position (your pick, open position is good practice too) and so on.
4. Then learn to play around the circle of fifths "across the neck" or "in one area" using the same fingerings. Start with C in the 2nd position, then F in the 2nd, Bb in the 1rst or 3rd, etc.
5. Once you learn this technique you can apply it to arpeggios, jazz patterns, melodic phrases etc.
An ex Berklee instructor at a west coast school had us doing this in a few short weeks after starting the first semester. It was not hard.
One little practice trick is to play just the roots around the circle of fifths in one "area" (3 adjacent positions). Start with C, and then other roots/tonics too. Name the notes out loud as you are doing this if you like.Last edited by fumblefingers; 03-29-2011 at 10:52 PM.
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03-29-2011 10:44 PM
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I've been playing for nearly 45 years this is my 2¢.
1. Learn scales for the same reason pianists, horn players and violinists do; to train your ears and fingers, to develop dexterity and to synchronise your right and left hands.
2. Don't get hung up on scales. For some reason, guitarists become obsessive about scales. I've never known a horn player or pianist who was.
3. I checked out Pebber Brown's website and YouTube vids the first time you mentioned the "14 position system". It seem to me to be a maximum amount of work for a minimum amount of payoff. Mr. Brown seems to a knowledgeable enough player but CAGED or Jimmy Bruno's scale fingerings will give you everything you need a lot quicker.
4. Learn triad and diatonic seventh arpeggios. I agree with mr beaumont that some focused arpeggio practice on tunes (especially with playalong tracks) will get your ears and hands up and running in a musical way more quickly than scales.
5. Listen, listen, listen. If you can't hear players on recordings emphasizing chord tones in their playing, begin working on ear training and start looking at transcriptions of solos. If possible, get copies of your favorite solos with chords above the staff and go through them and circle the chord tones in each measure. That will help you see how great players place chord tones in their solos.
Regards,
monk
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+1 on arpps, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I started improvising using chord tones only for about a year now, its difficult at first but after you practice it a lot it will be absorbed.
but you can still fake it (bebop) playing scales, play the key center scale put in lots of chromatics let your ears guide to the resolution which will probably be a chord tone or an extension. divert you lines directions often so you don't play just ups and down. the rhythmic concepts stay the same if using scales or arps.
I will use this faking approach when playing fast runs as it is very difficult (at least for me) in fast runs to think in chord tones. playing slower phrases definitely try to hit the chord tones to reflect the harmony, or if you have a strong melodic statement you can also play that with out thinking in chord tones.
so, in a nutshell the more approaches you know the more possibilities you have.
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I would agree with those who advise not going into too many scale fingerings or too complex a system. CAGED sounds like a pretty good idea, or for 7 note scales like major, or jazz minor, you can go to 7 fingerings if you want. But as long as you can cover all the fingerboard its fine. You may need to move position up or down one or two frets when improvising over a progression, but this happens automatically as you learn to use the material. I think it's then down to how you use the material that matters, and its much better to prioritise this "how" aspect in your practise, rather than get bogged down learning the material itself.
I speak, not as an expert I admit, but certainly as one who has wasted time by doing things the wrong way - i.e. spent way too much time thinking I had to comprehensively learn a whole complex system which covers every possible scale fingering configuration in every position, before attempting only then to make music with it all. Doesn't work! Far better to learn what you need, as you need it in order to make music. You remember things much better that way too I find. And I agree with the point about arpeggios - they probably are more useful (well OK, they definitely are), but they can be found in exactly the same places as the related scale shapes, so learn these at the same time.Last edited by Meggy; 03-31-2011 at 03:12 PM.
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I immediately started getting better bebop sounding lines when I started mixing in chromatics when using the melodic minor. For the longest time I would use only the notes in melodic minor but I found that the scale works much better for me with some simple chromatics added here and there.
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check out Berklee Online basic improv course. i tried it, and think its very good, great feedback from the instructor etc. if you do well, there are two jazz guitar courses to take after that. it will take you $3k for all of them. you can do it over 3 years.
for a cheaper route you can work William Leavitt's books (substituting CAGED), plus Aebersold stuff.
but regardless - use Steve Khan's and Wolf Marshall's Wes books! Learn as much Wes as possible. you can skip the octaves if you want, or at least defer them til later. a lot of "jazz guitar things" really click for you when you start playing his stuff! (aha, so that's how one plays the jazz guitar!) there is no substitute for it, even if its just a stepping stone in your journey.
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This is good advice also IMO - plus it works for other scales than the MM. In essence, I find it is good to just noodle around with scale/arpeggio patterns, adding chromatic stuff, and really just trying to create nice-sounding jazz lines. After a while, the scale/arpeggio areas start to become places where the lines are. You can do all this while working on soloing over a given tune, in fact I find it helps to focus my practice on what I need. Originally Posted by Kman
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I whole heartedly agree that the best way to advance as a jazz player is to LEARN TUNES. Memorize them, write out solos, copy other guys licks, practice improvising over the changes (in slow motion), etc.
HOWEVER, there is a benefit to knowing the fretboard too. At some point we all need to spend some time learning where the notes are that make up an arpeggio. Whether you know 2 or 3 patterns, or the CAGED method, or 100 patterns to do this ultimately doesn't matter. BUT, if you know 100 ways to play it, its not going to hurt you (assuming you've spend the majority of your time on the guitar learning how to play MUSIC and not just scales and arpeggios).
That being said, here's a video I did which addresses the thread starter's question of how to play anything in any position.
YouTube - Kanaal van ZamarGeetar
I practice scales and arpeggios each day, but when I PLAY, I tend to turn my brain off and just use whatever comes easy for the changes I'm playing. I've practiced so many scales and arpeggios for so long that I really don't think of patterns anymore when I just turn my mind off and play - I just see the notes to the chord laying all over the fretboard and tend to focus on those with a bunch of approach tones, licks, and melodic ideas.
I haven't met the jazz guitarist yet who thinks he as arrived and has no more room for improvement. With jazz guitar the journey is half the fun.
Last edited by SwingSwangSwung; 04-04-2011 at 10:33 AM.
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I'm just starting out too, and I think Mr. B's question hits the nail on the head. I've figured out that focusing on tunes and learning how to put chords together is the fundamental starting point in learning to play jazz, but learning scales and arpeggios needs to go right along with it. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Mr. B's question just points out that you need to learn the actual notes that you're playing when you practice scales, not just a movable pattern. When you're playing arpeggios, think about which notes you're playing and what their position in the scale is ( is it the root, 3rd, 5th, flat 7th, etc.)
I've figured out that it doesn't matter how fast or clean you play the scale or arp if you don't know what notes you're playing - you'll never be able to apply it in a meaningful way if all you're doing is learning patterns.
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Those that learn patterns most the time only know where the roots are in the patterns. Ask them to show you the 3rd's or 7th in the pattern you get the Trout look.
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When I realized this, modes finally started to make sense. Originally Posted by docbop
Those that learn patterns most the time only know where the roots are in the patterns. Ask them to show you the 3rd's or 7th in the pattern you get the Trout look.
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I m studying tunes autumn leaves Em and summertime Dm.
What is the most known key fir summertime???
Gmajor scale works very well over autumn leaves and so does the Em pentatonic, so I guess learning the 5 position pentatonic and the CAGED system wasant in vain....
Cheers,
Hudson.
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A minor, in my experience. I think louis and ella did it in e minor. Sam cooke did it in f#minor. Id start in a minor. Its so simple its easily transposef. Originally Posted by Hudsontoronto
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Check out Emily Remlers Summertime in A minor...great...can't remember where the pdf is but the you tube link is here...at the end of this vid
Summertime starts at 8:00
sailor
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Let's move this conversation to chord voicings. Can you know too many? I don't think so, but then again I feel the same way about scale fingerings.
Is there a school of thought that values knowing only a handful of voicings for chords vs. all the possibilities?
Curious.
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knowing few chords AND know how to use them beats knowing thousands of chords and not know how to use them...of course the optimum is knowing thousands of chords and know how to use them... Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung
wolf
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knowing the 3rd & 7th and how they move in progressions is one of the most valuable insights in voice-leading and learning chord/fretboard relations... Originally Posted by docbop
Those that learn patterns most the time only know where the roots are in the patterns. Ask them to show you the 3rd's or 7th in the pattern you get the Trout look.
teaching someone how to play a blues with just these two notes in each chord and the total movement is just 3 frets brings some very surprised looks on faces..its like exposing a magic trick...
play well
wolf
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Would the same principle hold true for scales and arpeggios? Originally Posted by wolflen
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Excellent post. It took me many wasted years to realize what you are talking about is correct. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Hmmm..I don't see where the OP mentions anyone specific, so I assumed he was talking about boppers--farlow, raney, etc.
You sure can play bop with scales-- you can also pound in a nail with a wrench. If the OP wants to play bop, he might be better served looking at how the cats who originally played the music viewed the fretboard.
I definitely don't want to open up another CST vs. Chord Tones bitchfest, but our OP here has another post rolling where he says he knows a bunch of scales but not how to use them...thes scales are hanging him up right now, and preventing him from making music--it's too much knowldge to process, and it's not even the most direct path to what he wants...
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Originally Posted by SwingSwangSwung
imo - the answer lies somewhere in between - for all of the above (chords, scales, arpeggios).
1. "a handful or few" is insufficient (for an advanced/pro player)
2. "knowing all the exhaustive possibilities" is unnecessary for the player (doesnt hurt the techer so much though
)
3. a middle ground is sufficient for the pro player.
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Absolutely--there's such a thing as information overload...you gotta have a pretty special mind to keep it all straight!
Part of developing an identity is wading through all the info available and finding what works for you...and part of getting better is realizing when you're stuck on an idea and you need to examine another approach.
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I don't know how much Wes Montgomery knew but when listening to him play and watching him on video, I can hear and see that he employed a relatively small number of chord voicings to great advantage. Similarly, he uses common fingering patterns as the springboard for his solos. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I think it's much better to take a few things, put them to work immediately playing tunes and add new things as needed rather than thinking that you have to learn a million things before you can start playing.
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start by learning the CAGED system on your fingerboard. It's basically 5 positions for the same scale starting with each of the pentatonic notes of the scale, or similar to the open chords of C, A, G, E and D. There are probably some you tube videos explaining it as well as a number of instructional books in music stores. You develop a graphic view of the fingerboard in terms of these forms. You have to memorize the fingerboard and, importantly, where all the chord roots are located. Eventually, you'll start seeing ii-V-I patterns vertically, but you should also approach the entire fingerboard horizontally, as well, which is where certain phrasing can best be achieved.
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I know the CAGED system already very well..
I stoped working on scales I will stick to the ones I know for now because of what I learned on this forum.
I'm taking a break from scales and learning some tunes, I'm learning autumn leaves, fly me to the moon, summertime etc...
I'm realizing that playing songs is more fun, more relaxed. And also I realized that all the scales I know I don't really know how to use them...I realized a lot of things since I joined this forum and learned from the pros in here that learning tunes is the best way to be a better musician.
My new goal correct me if I am wrong:
Learn 50 jazz tunes, learn the improvisations possibilitys for those songs, such as licks, scales etc... Hoow long will that take I don't know....
And after go back to scales and understand them...
Am I doing the right thing now?
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well, you'll never find all the possiblities for improvisation. thats the beauty of it. and just start with a few tunes, work on the arps all over the fretboard, and try approaching those chord tones in different ways.
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