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Gotcha, yeah, you wouldn't use your slinky bluesy "licks" over these kinds of pieces (although you could sometimes slip one or 2 in
Originally Posted by JakeAcci
), but all the bop based ideas that you'd use over Jazz Blues is right at home in any modern concept, no? Modes of (altered?) Pentatonics are also everywhere in Shorter, McCoy, Herbie, Henderson, Corea etc tunes. Blues players aren't as afraid of Pentatonics as other players! Even if they have to totally rethink them for something like "Maiden Voyage" or something....
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11-13-2015 12:43 PM
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I agree completely with the premise of the OP. The over arching concepts are not hard to understand, even the subs, ii-Vs, etc. but becoming technically efficient so that an infinite number of melodic and rhythmic possibilities and variations can be created, that's got to be one the most rewarding thing in the world .
It's fascinating to me how it's being taught these days: it's basically a very detailed arpeggio study. Fareed Haque says to play the arpeggios and link them with any sort of melodic notes that "sound good". He said that it's these personal choices of notes as approach tones that make monk Monk, Wes Wes and bird bird.
Sheryl Bailey has a more rigorous system in terms of structure: instead of the scale built on the one I chord, she builds a dominant seventh bebop scale from the V chord, and One can only ascend of descend stepwise according to this dominant 7th bebop scale. The creativity therein lies from the arpeggios that can be launched from the 4 chord tones of the V7 dominant 7th bebop scale.
i've just discovered Richies Zellon.s system of targeting and approach tones and this makes the most sense to me, logically and musically . There is a separate thread on this here.
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I probably work more on chromatic Bop concepts, but when it comes to Pentatonics, I'm kinda into altered Pentatonics, Pents as subs and Pents with different kinds of chromatic passing notes (not just the usual "blues" passing notes), but although this seems more advanced when compared to the noodle "box" shapes we played as kids, there is this thing where the 2 notes per string shapes are really useful to guitar players as the right hand feels familiar with it. BUT, it's this very familiarity that has to be reworked and retrained if you wanna phrase more like Herbie, Tyner, Henderson etc . Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Even with altered Pents (Ramon Ricker), I always try to learn them 2 notes per string despite the sometimes horrendous stretches. It's just easier to pre hear rhythmic phrases and pull them off on the fly that way with these kinds of scales and I'm sure this comes from rock noodling in a past life! But yeah, we never sound like piano or horn players with these kinds of pentatonics, especially with the stacked 4ths thing... That's why I usually stick passing notes in even altered pents, and just treat pents as 5 note arps, where every note is a "chord tone" and use bop type embellishments like I would on 4 note arps...
And as for modal tunes, I find rock/blues players are more at home here than with anything with changes. If you think about it, basic rock/blues noodling is just really modal noodling! I'm comfortable with Modal tunes too because I do a lot of extended practice on just one or 2 chords at a time. That's how I learned to play against Jazz Blues changes, like play Bb7 for a bar, then Eb7 for a bar. Repeat, rinse, repeat. Do this for a few weeks, in every way I can think of, then onto the next chord! haha....Last edited by princeplanet; 11-13-2015 at 02:38 PM.
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I lile playing on blues progressions and I see a lot of crossover with rhythm changes. I think my playing on blues is something I have worked on the most. But I have never found blues hard really - it's how I started.
A thorough study of jazz blues will teach you pretty much every basic movement within one key. Remember that any voice leading that you see is just an embellishment of the simple three chord progression.
Many people have said that they have trouble on blues and rhythm changes and listening to their playing these players tend to be somewhat modal in approach. I believe it may be something to do with the modern chord scale approach - there's a lack of flexibility in this approach that the profusion of different blues subs really highlights. That stuff works well for some stuff but to make blues and rhythm tunes really work you have to have a solid grasp of older improv techniques.
It's also to a large extent about playing by ear and feel. Blues inflections defy trad theory and using the blues scale is a quick fix for something far more subtle. Playing blues puts you in dialog with the tradition in a way that ATTYA for all its popularity with great players, doesnt.
After the blues feeling is mastered on 12 bar songs, it becomes available in other contexts. You obviously can run any type of changes playing you like - swing, bop, modal etc - on blues too, once the basis is understood, so I'm not sure if I see a blues progression as fundamentally any different to, say, ATTYA. Perhaps Wayne tunes, but then Wayne is very bluesy too.... And then there Mingus. Hmmm.
I see your point about choice frenzy btw. its a good point and one i struggle with. some people seem to have a decision made - they play bop or contemporary etc and nothing else. I am a lot harder on myself :-)Last edited by christianm77; 11-13-2015 at 11:36 PM.
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Enjoying the conversation here. I appreciate the more modern stuff, but find myself drawn to players who show they are at least aware of the blues in their playing. A lot of the guys I like who moved jazz forwards came up playing jazz blues, standards, etc... Here's my favorite quote on the subject:
“Jazz is to blues what yeast is to bread. Without it, it’s flat.” - Carmen McRae
All in all I think it depends on your ears, your musical taste, and what you're drawn to. Blues was a part of pop music more when I was younger than it is today.
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many players have such a different approach to the way they interpret a tune..even a straight ahead 12 bar..
to me the ideal example of the "jazz blues" feel (from a guitar point of view) is Kenny Burrell playing with Jimmy Smith..its blues but its far more of a jazz feel..Smith will take a standard and fill it with blues and its will still retain its original character..Kenny hitting chords behind him that are so sweet..getting that voicing-not being in Jimmys way at all..
then Kenny picks up a nylon string..and plays behind Louis Armstrong on its a "wonderful world" not a blues lick to be heard..
early George Benson on the CTI label .. filling tunes of all kinds with blues licks and chord runs and making it swing..
then Broadway and Masquerade..blues them to pieces..and today what can be said..there is no limit on GB!
john McLaughlin..influenced me greatly in fusion playing..not a blues lick in sight..intense in your face scales as fast as you can play them to a crescendo that makes you want to scream..modal extreme on the solos..
to Miles..his later work..with john scofield..intervallic chaos mixed with synthetic scales for days..and then a nice blues line thrown in for a very tasty relief...
they all can play a 32 bar standard without bending a note..
to the other extreme of Hendrix..everything was blues (circle of fifths?? no problem - lookout Joe).. could he (if he wanted to) play heres that rainy day and be serious with it..any bets?Last edited by wolflen; 11-17-2015 at 06:37 PM.
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hmmm good question ..... could SRV ? Originally Posted by wolflen
clapton ?
in a blues in C
i think the jazz guys play E (maj sound) over the I chord
and Eb (I minor sound) over the IV chord and run some of the bird changes/back cycle a bit alter some chords , sideslip play motifs
etc etc etc
and mix that with a few bluesy min 3rd and flat 5 licks/sounds
cicago blues guys play more modal with more (minor sound) Eb over both/all the chords
maybe thats too simple an analysiss?
probably !
I dig both .....
Its the more abstract geometric music
i can't grokLast edited by pingu; 11-17-2015 at 07:43 PM.
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Blues guitar isn't just "noodling."
Playing good jazz-blues on guitar means knowing how to play blues guitar good first. It is more than the pentatonic scale, as the OP is discovering.
Blues guitar improvisation isn't about emulating saxophone lines, and it isn't about outlining chords -- it is more of an emulation of the human singing voice.
Blues guitar lets the guitar be a guitar (as jazz guitarists, we shed much of what makes guitar what it is, we stop bending notes and want to pick every note instead of using too many hammer ons, etc.) In blues guitar you need to bend notes and find motifs that allow you to avoid sounding cliche and scalar in the limited I-IV-V pallet. Try playing in a blues band, playing 40 songs a night with only the I-IV-V to work with as an improviser, and you learn real fast that blues isn't easy at all -- if you aren't creative enough you end up sounding the same on every song.
Blues playing is a great foundation for improvising in jazz because it teaches you to delve real deep as an improvisor, but a foundation built on improvising through ii-V-I wont automatically enlighten your blues guitar playing. And that seems to be the OP's challenge.
I can't imagine working blues guitar into jazz without investing time into the blues guitar first. You need to love blues guitar to play blues on guitar. Blues guitar isn't just pentatonic noodling as some say, and it takes work to express yourself in that genre.
If you want to integrate blues into your jazz, go back and learn to play the blues. You could put round wound strings on so you can bend notes, and listen to the great blues players, and then you will see where Kenny Burrell is coming from.Last edited by nickel; 11-17-2015 at 09:44 PM.
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Oh man, I definitely do NOT think it's easy to play good jazz-blues. I'm "better" at playing over standards for sure.
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I hope your right, this is my approach, I have been transposing and learning jazz blues all year. Songs like Benson's The Scratch, Sandu, Green's Greenery, Sundown, Cool Blues.
Now I am trying to expand into non blues. The foundation of players tackling Summertime and Autumn Leaves (which I am now learning), I can can hear Baker, Burrell, Cannon Ball, Pepper etc infuse them with the blues.
I am sure it will be wonderful for modal and modern playing also as you(I) will really have a developed ear for melody, dynamics, tension release story telling etc. It seems to me to give you fantastic foundations.
It is great when you know you sound like you are lost and meandering to hear where you can insert a blues line. Take a breath and then back into it.
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Funny i'm not the only one who thought that. I was starting to transcribe Burrell songs, and some easy Wes parts but i changed my mind, even if I came from playing some Stevie Ray (blues at its highest point). Why? Because jazz blues can get really hard, and most of the ideas that musicians like Peterson or Burrell (Who are more bluesy) play are really complex for a beginner. To start playing jazz blues tunes I would have to find and select part of songs that have simple ideas (like Wynton Kelly solo on Freddie Freeloader) and that, takes time.
PD: I'm studying Coleman Hawkings, Lester Young, and Charlie Christian. Blues and non-blues songs.
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Gabrielchoque96 have you tried studying Louis Armstrong's St James Infirmary, the lines are so heavy and melodic but pretty straight forward to transcribe. No notes wasted, every one of them is so perfect, what a lesson:
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I haven't, thanks for the advice. Hearing it for a while I know what you mean, the notes that he chose to play are so perfect, kind of Lester's "blue Lester". I have also considered playing Louis, but the rhythm of some of his melodies can get pretty advanced some times.
Hey, do you think trumpet players lines are more likely to be played on guitar than sax lines?. I don't say it because how hard are they to play, but how great it sounds. Miles Davis's medium tempo solos, sound beautiful when played in octaves like Wes.
PD.. I really loved that Louis tune.
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wait - to what extent are we talking about a 12 bar blues chord structure as it is played in jazz, vs blues-influenced phrasing and note choices in a solo?
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One thing you might not develop so well by keeping to a diet of blues improv for a decade, would be melodic development over a 32-bar form. Melodies to standards tend to be (not always) more sophisticated than blues heads. I like to hear a player develop a melody, rather than completely ignore it while playing the changes. It's a tough skill to master, and the schooling for it comes from the standard rep. That said, I love the blues!
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My blues improv sucks big time , especialy when i moved from playing it in Bb to F , realt different fingerings etc ! i can sing lines in my head,but there's still a big barrier between humming things and playing 'em in the spurr of the moment !
so Here's what i'm doing , i'm transcribing charlie parker blues (au privave , Chi Chi) brilliant lines , exactly what i'm looking ! I'm convinced that's the only way for me to realy Understand the blues.
so What took your blues language to the next level ?
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Turnarounds and listening.
And a few thousand hours of practice.
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For me personally it's been a combination of Richie Zellon's bebop blues materials and transcribing.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Transcribe Grant Green.
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So you don't think parker is the ultimate bebop blues guy? I love green by the way,but parker for me is epitomnof language!
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For me it has always been about thinking point to point, counterpoint, or contrapuntal. I believe those are mostly classical music terms, but the blues (and any music for me) is all about call and response. A bird chirping and another one chirping back. Or, one lonely bird chirping and chirping back to himself.
P.S. Being mostly an unschooled musician I often speak in very simple terms about music. I appreciate all the technical expertise that others have, and while I understand a great bit of it, I hesitate to give any technical advice. That said, mastering the blues scale and a bunch of forms for 7th chords for changes has helped me with my blues approach.
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I have been transcribing Joe Pass' "Blues for Alican" one chunk at a time over several years. It has had an enormous impact on my jazz blues playing, in particular my solo jazz blues arranging. I'm still pulling it out and working on it from time to time. I have like the first 3/4 transcribed and learned note for note, just have a chorus or two left.
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Certainly no problem with Parker. But to me, Grant's the most accessible bridge between blues blues and bop blues. Originally Posted by mooncef
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My next level is not that high maybe on level 3 of a sky scraper
Recognising the Building blocks and some structure from transcribing
First line an opener resolving on 1 of bar 1
second line maybe a repeat with a bit of seasoning resolving on 1 of bar 3
Keep building resolving on the 1 or there abouts on the odd bars then sitting out
check out Lou Donaldson.
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Originally Posted by mooncef
If you cant already, make sure you can play a blues and target the root, 3rd, and 5th of each chord. Iow, first chorus target the roots, next time the 3rd of each chord, then the 5th.
Absolutely essential IMO.
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