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I've been getting better at the improvisation, but I was wondering if you guys might have some suggestions on how to make the melody come through in the solo. I know part of it is using melody notes and building off of the lines, but that's not it. I listen to a guy like Ed Bickert and I can hear the melody in his playing even when he's not using any of the melody notes. I'm sure it's a rhythmic/ phrasing thing that he's got going on. Anyone have any ideas as to how this can be improved?
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06-20-2008 08:50 AM
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one thing to try practicing is to improvise using the same rhythm as he melody...while you might not do exactly this in a real life situation, it does help you notice space, strong places to accent, etc. try it out.
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Yeah, good call. I'll try working on that. I sort of just had a "revelation". I've been get a bunch of chord soloing ideas from a different thread and something MW said got me thinking. He said move the chords with a melody in mind rather than having a melody just occur because of the voicings you play.
I've always kind of thought of improvising as using scale runs, arpeggios, and licks or as playing melodically. Two seperate things that had to be balanced. I was just playing today though and realized that the chord soloing stuff can be used. Rather than trying to think of licks and lines and where to use the melody and everything, I tried thinking of a melody (really simple - half notes and quarter notes) and used the arpeggios and scale runs to walk up to the melody notes the same way you're supposed to use the chord voicings in a chord solo. This sounds kind of like a basic concept, and that's because it is. There was another thread somewhere that I saw a long time ago that was talking about people's approach to improv. It said that there were about a million different mental approaches to good improv. They'll all get you to the same place (which I assume would be creative, melodic improv), but you just have to explore and try and find the approach that clicks. So that sort of clicked for me.
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I've noticed that the melody from some songs is more closely related to the underlying chord progression than other songs. So, even if you are just "blowing" over the changes, but you are using arpeggios heavily, sometimes you often hint at the melody naturally. As I posted in another thread the other day, I've noticed this in How High the Moon in particular. I've played this many ways recently (pure improv/blowing over the changes, and embellished actual melody approach, and chord melody) and just my pure improvisations over this tune always seem to hint at the melody, even if I'm not really thinking about the melody as I'm playing.
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That's true. One in particular I've been working on, though, is Stella By Starlight. A lot of non-chord tones appear in that one, so it's given me a little bit of trouble. For instance, that first A on the Em7b5. Or the F over the Cmin in the third bar. I think there's a C over a Bbmaj7 during the 2 measure stretch in the middle. Anyway, I've really just been trying to find a mental approach to the improv that I'm comfortable with. I've got good technique and speed and theory knowledge, I just haven't really settled in to a mindset that lets me use it. From what I hear that just takes a lot of time and a lot of playing, but this approach helped me a lot. I'm a very chord/harmony oriented guy so harnessing my scales and arpeggios and finding a way to develop melodic phrases has always given me trouble. I definitely use arpeggios and scales as a crutch and overwork them sometimes. How do you go about avoiding that? What do you think or visualize when you improvise?
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A gret exercise, akin to what Mr. Beaumont said above, is to try and solo over a tune and make sure that in every phrase you play that you have the rhythm of the melody, or the melody notes themselves in your lines.
Try singing the melody to yourself, in your head or out loud if you can, while you are improvising. This is a great way to always have the melody at the tips of your fingers. You can also practice comping a tune and singing the melody out loud. Then start to scat a bit but base everything off the melody.
You can also do this with your guitar as well. I had a friend who played sax at my undergrad who was an amazing player and always seemed to have the melody in his solos. I asked him how he practiced and he told me he starts by playing a melody over and over, and maybe after the 3rd or 4th time he starts to add one thing, then after a couple more choruses he adds one more thing. He does this until after 35-40 choruses or so he's gotten away from his melody and is now soloing. But in the mean time he has developed every idea he plays off of and around the melody.
MW
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Wow. That's a lot of choruses. I'll try it out. Probably won't get quite to 40 but we'll see how it goes. Thanks for the ideas.
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it's also a great way to always know where you're at in a tune.
Originally Posted by m78w
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Hi, people!
I also have my question on this subject; a long time ago I heard or maybe read that it's important to play a note of the chord on every beat when soloing. Is that right? I know it is right on the first beat of every bar (no matter if you play the root, 3rd, 5th, 7th... because I analyzed it myself and this made me think that playing a note of the chord on every beat is also correct. What do you think of it?
Thanks in advance!
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spend too much time thinking about that and you won't spend too much time making music.
that said, the bebop scales eist basically to fulfill this--you'll hit a chord tone (if running 8ths) on every strong beat.
personally, i think it's much more important to create an interesting melodic line when improvising.
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I would agree with Mr. B. It might be something to keep in mind. But it's not something to struggle with. I would just work on getting the chord tones into the improv in the first place. As long as they're there, where they fall isn't going to be a huge area of concern. I think that would be the point where you're thinking too much. I mean no offense by this it's just not something that would work for me. I did say earlier in this thread that it's important to find a mental approach that works for you - that doesn't work for me. If it works for you, then great. If it doesn't, then bag it because as long as you hit chord tones, have a little chromatic movement, and a strong melody in there then you're doing fine. Actually if you can get all of that going then you're doing brilliantly. Just remember it's always a work in progress. Every little bit of detail can be extremely helpful, but, if you get too hung up on it, can hinder your improvement. I'd just file that away in your brain somewhere. Hold on to it and when your comfortable try it out - but in the meantime don't worry about it.
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1) Pick a tune to learn (old standard from the real book)
2) Learn the melody & changes so you don't need to read the music.
3) Find and listen to the tune as played by one of the great melodic players (Scott Hamilton is a good choice.)
4) Listen to the way the way the tune is played for each chorus. Try to analyze and transcribe melodic content that you like. This approach will help with ear training and will eventually become a part of your own improvisation technique.
5) Play along with the tune you have picked to learn. This will help you get in "the groove" and feel the rhythmic/melodic content of the solos.
best wishes,
wiz
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Oh yeah. Transcription's a great idea. I'll definitely have to work on that. As for MW's suggestion about playing the melody over and over and slowly moving away from it. I did that last night. I didn't make it through 40 choruses but I still felt like it worked a little. That one's definitely got some potential if I work at it more. I actually did it a few times with single notes and with chord melody since I've been working on that lately. Anyway, thanks for the suggestions.
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Hi, guys!
Thank you for your points of view. I think I'll stick with the thing of playing a note of the chord on the first beat of each bar. I'll give a try playing only all the notes of the chord on the beats the chord lasts.
A lot of work playing melodies thinking of each chord, eh? It was easier to play just one scale carefree about the chords.
Since I subscribed here I begun to think I'm becoming a music scientist!
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you don't need to directly use the melody either, but you can use the contour of the melody, how it moves, peeks, what sort of climax that melody has. For example, on a tune like "I Love You" there is this obvious high point in the form, that F melody note on the Gm7 at the end of the bridge is powerful, if you can build your contour of the chorus that it has a mini climaxitc episode people will fill that in as a reference to the tune.
I'm a big fan of using the melody. To me, if you're not going to use it at all then why bother playing it all in the first place. You're playing a song when you're playing standards, tunes that are meant to be sung in the 1st place, so you should reference that melody often especially early on in your improvisation to create some unity.
I always find that bugs me, especially with a blues or something where after the head is over people just start playing their hip shit and don't care what that head was until the end, half the time people play a different head out haha
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"I always find that bugs me, especially with a blues or something where after the head is over people just start playing their hip shit and don't care what that head was until the end, half the time people play a different head out haha"
Yeah I can identify with that - if you ignore melody and base all your soloing on the chord sequence, you're making the melody irrelevant, and it really shouldn't be so; if you're gonna play, say, Night and Day - then play Night and Day, not an exercise on the chord sequence. Taking the original head into account in your solos makes each tune different - someone walking into the room halfway through your solo should still be able to recognise the tune you're playing (provided of course it's a tune they know!)
I wish I could consistently play like that, but at least I know that it's something worth aiming for.
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I got a chance to do a little public jazzing tonight. There's an open mic night around town every weekend that I go to a lot and there's this other guy there that plays a lot of Chet Atkins kind of stuff. We were the only two playing there tonight so we played for the better part of three hours. We took turns picking songs so we played Easy to Love, For Sentimental Reasons, Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing, Misty, Girl From Ipanema, and a bunch of pretty fun jazzy Chet Atkins/ Jerry Reed jams. It was a pretty good time. Anyway, the improv turned out pretty well. I managed to keep it under control and honestly did pretty well on them except for Girl From Ipanema (that B section drives me nuts). I found that Misty is an easy song to keep the melody. It's really distinct and feels really natural so it's easy to weave in and out of the melody while improvising. Sentimental Reasons and Easy to Love were fairly good that way too. Don't Mean a Think and the Girl From Ipanema were quite a bit tougher. So I guess the trend here is that I do well with ballads and medium swings, but when the tempo get's a little quicker or the melody's a little more outside I have a little trouble.
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Congrats!!!! Just keep going back and playing and those up tempo tunes will start to get easier and easier.
MW
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Reventlov wrote: "I always find that bugs me, especially with a blues or something where after the head is over people just start playing their hip shit and don't care what that head was until the end, half the time people play a different head out haha"
Sorry Reventlov, I don't get it. Can you explain it in simpler words? I think you make a double talk when you say the word HEAD but I don't get its second meaning.
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The word "head" in jazz is slang for the word melody. So in a tune like summertime the head is where the singer sings "Summertime, and the living is easy....."
To put it in context you could say to a sax player on a gig:
"Why don't you take the head in and I'll take the head out"
Which could also be said:
"Why don't you play the melody the first time and I'll play it the second time."
MW
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Thank you Matt! Now I get it!
Another one; many times people refer to a musician with the word CAT. Is it refered to every musician or maybe only to beginners and/or medium players?
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The word "cat" refers to anybody, it's slang for dude, guy etc.
So you could say:
"Check out that cat, he's really swinging!"
or
"Check out that dude/guy, he's really swinging!"
Matt
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Thanks again, Matt!
I think I'll have to buy a dictionary teaching english slang, preferably american!
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